“პროპორციული არჩევნების დამკვიდრება იქნება ყველაზე დიდი მიღწევა, რასაც ბიძინა ივანიშვილი და “ქართული ოცნება” მოუტანს მთელ ქვეყანას”
ირმა ცეცხლაძე 27 48 93
qveyanasa da regionSi mimdinare politikur procesebze, dedaqalaqSi gamarTul mitingebsa da momavali saparlamento arCevnebis prognozze saubrobs aWaris umaRlesi sabWos fraqciis `qarTuli ocneba – aWara~
Tavmjdomare daviT bacikaZe
deputati ambobs, rom es mTavroba pirveli xelisuflebaa, romelmac Tundac 2024 wlisTvis konstituciaSi Cawera, rom qveyana gadavidoda arCevnebis proporciul sistemaze, rac aravis gaukeTebia.
– axalgazrdebis protestis fonze gadmoitanes TariRi ufro adre Tu sakuTari neba-surviliT?
– cxadia, axalgazrdebis moTxovna gaiTvaliswines, Tanac arCevnebis aqeT gadmotanis Sedegad meti CarTuloba iqneboda da ukve Semdeg arCevnebze meti datvirTviT imuSavebda aprobirebuli saarCevno sistema.
– xom ver dagvixasiaTebT saarCevno sistemebs, romeli ufro demokratiulia da ra plus-minusi gaaCnia?
– orive demokratiulia, Tumca Sereulma sistemam saqarTveloSi ratomRac ar imuSava. rac Seexeba proporciuls, wminda maTematikurad rom gaTvalo, ufro samarTliani gamodis nulovani barieris fonze. saqarTvelos TiToeuli moqalaqis xma warmodgenili iqneba saqarTvelos parlamentSi. principSi, 0,67 procenti mainc iqneba nulovan bariers zeviT, romelic erT procentsac ar Seadgens, anu romeli partiac daagrovebs xmebis saerTo raodenobis 0,67%-s, erTi xmiT mainc iqneba warmodgenili parlamentSi, amitom yoveli xma iqneba gansazRvruli, Sereul sistemaSi ki sakmaod bevri xma ikargeboda. me yovelTvis viyavi proporciuli arCevnebis momxre, bevrad adrec. am sistemis danergva 2020 wlisTvis ufro uprianad mimaCnda.
– bevrad adreco, ambobT. . .
– diax, jer kidev saakaSvilis dros, magram miSas es xels ar aZlevda, radgan kargad icoda, am SemTxvevaSi kvlav saTaveSi darCenis aranairi Sansi ar eqneboda.
– axla surs es sistema `nacionalur moZraobas~, romelic opoziciis erT-erT wamyvan Zalad iTvleba?. .
– arc saakaSvils da arc mis mimdevrebs es sistema axlac ar undaT. kargad ician, rom verafer sasikeTos sakuTari gundisTvis ver gaitanen. Aamitom, sanam Seicvleba konstitucia, cdiloben revoluciis moxdenas, raTa maJoritarebis Sereuli saarCevno sistemiT misianebi gaiyvanon.
– amitom ar cxreba protesti parlamentis win?
– diax, es maT mier marTuli procesebia, magram unda icodnen, rom aRar gamouvaT – dasrulda maTi dro. es sistema amaT mocilebaSic dagvexmareba da ufro demokratiuli procesebis ganviTarebaSic.
– rasTan akavSirebT areulobas dedaqalaqSi?
– aranairi areuloba dedaqalaqSi araa. Zalian gTxovT, protests da areulobas nu aurevT erTmaneTSi. es axalgazrdebis Cveulebrivi protestia. cxadia, aq ar vgulisxmob Tbilisis mTel axalgazrdobas, es mxolod nawilia, isic `nacionaluri moZraobis~ mier apelirebuli. kargad Canan am politikuri Zalis warmomadgenlebi kadrSi. cxadia, isini warmarTaven yvelafers. imas, rom miSa mSvildaZe yovelTvis maT Soris iyo, rad unda kvleva da laparaki. is iyo bolo didi mitingis organiztori, sadac lamis yvela `nacionali~ aRmoCnda misuli.
– amiT kanoni ar daurRveviaT – yvelas aqvs mitingebis Catarebis ufleba.
– ra Tqma unda, maT es ufleba konstituciiT aqvT miniWebuli da arc aravin zRudavs, oRond ar unda moawyon areuloba da gamoiyenon xalxi parlamentSi, mTavrobaSi, kancelariaSi SesaWrelad. es ukve antikonstituciuria, sisxlis samarTlis danaSaulia da isjeba.
– TbilisSi daiwyo daWerebi. marTalia, samarTali da kanoni Tavisas iTxovs, magram. . .
– `magram~ ar arsebobs. vinc kanoni daarRvia, yvelam unda agos pasuxi – rogorc policielebma, ise momitingeebma. zogierTi sulac ar aRiarebs, rom realuri Sturmi iyo parlamentze. arada, kadrebSi kargad Cans, rogor miiwevdnen garedan da rogor elodnen maT biWebi SigniT, rom erToblivad aeRoT Cveni sakanonmdeblo organo, magram ar gamouvidaT. es ukve gavlili gvaqvs SevardnaZis dros da Zalian kargad viciT, rac moxdeboda Semdeg. ase Tu mova miSa qveynis saTaveSi, Torem sxvanairad Sansi ar gaaCnia. am dros vinc daaziana policieli, iman unda agos pasuxi. cxadia, is samarTaldamcvelebic daisjebian, vinc gadaameta uflebamosilebas. es iyo saxelmwifo gadatrialebis mcdeloba. vinc ver xedavs am faqts, verc verasodes dainaxavs. CemTvis mTavaria, rom es ar moxda. bevr mitingze var namyofi, didi da mcire Tavyrilobebic minaxavs, Tumca axlandeli aqciebi sakmaoze mcirea. SekrebilTa umetesoba aris `nacmoZraobis~ partaqtivi da xalxis im mcire nawils, romelsac ar moswons es mTavroba, amis sruli ufleba aqvs. 3-4 aTasi adamiani ar aris Tbilisi da, miT umetes, saqarTvelos sazogadoeba. dedaqalaqis umaRles saswavleblebSi aTiaTasobiT studentia, ase rom, 300-400 axalgazrda araa mTeli studentoba, rogorc amas xSirad aJRereben.
– ruseTTan isev daiZaba urTierToba. . .
– ras vizamT axla, ruseTis dRis wesrigiT ver vicxovrebT. putins ra daesizmreba, ar aris Cveni gasarkvevi. Cven win mivdivarT da unda wavideT, magram araviTar SemTxvevaSi ar unda moviqceT ise, rogorc mixeil saakaSvili, romelic arafris gamo, uazro gamonaTqvamebiT aRizianebda am imperiis Tavkacs. aucilebelia stabiluri kursis SemuSaveba, romelic axal realobaSi gagviyvans. vimuSaoT wynarad, mSvidad evropel da amerikel konsultantebTan erTad, romelTa kursic, adre Tu gvian, evrokavSirsa da natoSi Segviyvans, rac Cvens mosaxleobasa da qveynis momavalze sasikeTod aisaxeba.
– ra sistemiT Catardeba arCevnebi aWaraSi?
– Tu kanoni ar Seicvala, isev Zveli, Sereuli sistemiT Catardeba. aris opoziciuri partiebi, romlebic erToblivad iTxoven aqac proporciuli arCevnebis daniSvnas. Tavmjdomarem gaiTvaliswina maTi azri da SexvedrisTvis da molaparakebisTvis mzad aris. arian deputatebi, romlebsac surT aWaris umaRles sabWoSi, TviTmmarTvelobebSi maJoritaruli arCevnebis sistema datovon. isini Tvlian, rom iq, sadac ar aris 61 deputati, ar aris proporciuli sistemis danergvis aucilebloba.
– ramdenad SesaZlebelia, rom saqarTvelos parlamentSi iyos proporciuli da aWaraSi – Sereuli sistemis arCevnebi?
– simarTle giTxraT, mimaCnia, rom umaRlesi sabWo TviTmmarTvelobebze erTi safexuriT maRla mdgomi organoa, romelic, aseve, regionalurad marTavs. regions ufro TviTmmarTvelobad vafaseb, vidre saxelmwifoebriv warmonaqmnad. gaxsovT, cdilobdnen Tavis droze, rom CamoeyalibebinaT saxelwifo marTvis meqanizmad, ramac, sabednierod, kraxi ganicada.
– aWaris televiziis sazogadoebrivi mauwyeblis bordis da direqtoris arCevnebis irgvliv ganviTarebul procesebze ra azris xarT? mavanni acxadeben, rom igi lamis `nacmoZraobis~ ruporia.
– Tavs vikaveb mediis konkretuli Sefasebebisgan, Tumca yvelas yvelaferi gvaxsovs, vin sad muSaobda da visi momxre iyo warsulSi. rac mTavaria, am etapze televizia, rogorc sazogadoebrivi mauwyebeli, Tavisufalia da es yvelaze mniSvnelovania, radgan swored amisTvis vibrZodiT yvela Cvengani. Tumca, ramdenad arian isini Tavisufalni Sida struqturaSi, eg ukve sxva Temaa. erTaderT televiziaze SemiZlia yoymanis gareSe vTqva, rom mxolod erTi konkretuli partiis interesebs emsaxureba – es aris `rusTavi 2~, danarCen mediasaSualebebze neitralitets vinarCuneb.
– rogor SeafasebT gabunias ucenzuro gamosvlas Ria eTeriT?
– es uzrdelobaa, uzrdelia ganmcxadebeli. qarTvelebs gansakuTrebuli damokidebuleba gvaqvs micvalebulebis mimarT da Cvens tradiciebSi ar jdeba maTze rame cudis Tqma. meorec – wminda wylis provokacia iyo. `rusTavi 2~ da `nacionaluri moZraoba~ am xerxiT cdiloben areulobis Semotanas qveyanaSi. aseve minda vTqva, arc me da arc aravis sjera, rom es mxolod gabunias piradi gadawyvetileba iyo da saqmis kursSi ar Caayena prodiuseri Tu nika gvaramia. yvelaferi icodnen, ubralod, elodnen reaqciebs da. . . miiRes kidec. yvelam ganacxada, rom esaa provokacia da ara Jurnalistika. swored aseT Jurnalistebs amzadebs `rusTavi 2~.
– qarTuli politikuri partiebis da politikosebis mimarT mosaxleobis ndobis faqtoris maCvenebeli mkveTrad daeca. . .
– politikuri gaerTianebebis kanonis mixedviT, xalxi mxolod arCevnebSi monawileobs. vinme Tu moisurvebs xelisuflebaSi mosvlas, unda Camoayalibos politikuri partia. ase rom, Tu aravis endoba, Tavad SeuZlia Seqmnas. erTi ram faqtia, arCevnebis da politikuri partiebis gareSe ver Camoyalibdeba mTavroba, rogorc aRmasrulebeli, ise sakanonmdeblo.
– axali saarCevno sistemiT samzeoze Tu SeZleben gamosvlas patara partiebi, romlebsac aqamde sakanonmdeblo organoSi moxvedris Sansi ar gaaCndaT?
– es nulovani barieri, ufro sworad, 0,67 procenti, aZlevs Sanss politikur gaerTianebebs, 13-15 aTasi xmis dagrovebis SemTxvevaSi, Tundac erTi adgili gainaRdon sakanonmdeblo organoSi. es marTlac kargia. cudi rom iyos, holandiaSi ar isargeblebdnen am sistemiT. davijero, iq Cvenze naklebi demokratia da sityvis Tavisuflebaa? gamsaxurdias xelisuflebis dros erT-erTi dadebiTi, rac moxda, is iyo, rom 1992 wlis saparlamento arCevnebSi mTeli qarTuli politikuri speqtri parlamentSi Sevida zviadis `mrgval magidasTan~ erTad. maSin yvelaze rTuli, magram aqtiuri sakanonmdeblo organo gvqonda. mas Semdeg yvelas kargad gvaxsovs, rogori erTpartiuli parlamentebi `waewyo~, ase rom, Tuki samarTlebrivi demokratiuli qveynis Seqmnas vgegmavT, qveynis SigniT arsebul yvela politikur gaerTianebas unda mivceT TviTrealizaciis saSualeba.
– zogierTi imasac ambobs, rom prorusuli Zalebic Sevlen parlamentSi da amiT safrTxe Seeqmneba qveyanas.
– visi ra saqmea, prorusuli an proCinuri Zalebi Tu Sevlen parlamentSi. maT momxreebi Tu hyavT da saTanado raodenobis xmebs aiReben, unda Sevidnen, aba, ra unda qnan? am SemTxvevaSi proevropulma Zalebma unda iaqtiuron, raTa parlamentSi meti adgiliT iyvnen warmodgenili. erTi da ori prorusuli ganwyobis adamiani aminds ver Seqmnis. siWrele iqneba politikuri speqtris, rac demokratiis maRali xarisxis maCvenebelia. sajaro organoSi rom iqnebian, ufro xSirad miakiTxavs maT mosaxleoba da dainaxavs, mteria Tu moyvare.
– axali sistemis amoqmedebiT mmarTvel partias darCeba umravlesoba parlamentSi Tu poziciebis daTmoba mouwevs?
– vfiqrob, rom yvelaze met xmas aiRebs. 2020 wlis saparlamento arCevnebSi `qarTul ocnebas~ es problema namdvilad ar daudgeba. ai, ra iqneba Semdeg arCevnebze, ver getyviT. am etapze mmarTvel partias kargi reitingi aqvs.
– ra gaZlevT am prognozis safuZvels?
– mesmis, rom qveyanaSi ekonomikuri SeWirveba, umuSevroba, gauaresebuli socialuri fonia, raRac Zvrebis miuxedavad, win ver wavediT didad, magram es saarCevno sistema, romelic axla Semoaqvs `qarTul ocnebas~, aris saqarTvelos ganviTarebisaTvis aucilebeli instrumenti. es iqneba yvelaze didi miRweva, rasac biZina ivaniSvili da `qarTuli ocneba~ moutans mTel qveyanas. SesaZloa, aqedan miRebuli efeqti dRes, xval an 5-8 wlis ganmavlobaSi ver vigrZnoT, magram mis mniSvnelobas aucileblad Seafaseben 10-12 wlis Semdeg. ufro demokratiuli, samarTliani saarCevno sistema met Sanss miscems Cvens qveyanas evropaSi damkvidrebisa da demokratiis ufro maRali xarisxis dafiqsirebisaTvis. amas TavisTavad mosdevs qveynis keTildReoba rogorc socialuri, ise ekonomikuri kuTxiT.
