ნეოლიბერალიზმი პოზიციებს თმობს?
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interesmoklebuli ar iqneba, dRes publicist daviT CxartiSvilis Tvalsazriss gavecnoT Tanamedrove msoflios politikur peripetiebze, realobaze, sadac, misi TqmiT, Jurnalistebi aSuqeben faqtebs, publicistebi – trendebs, evropasa da StatebSi imarjveben tradicionalistebi, Turqebs qurTebi sajijgnad aSS-ma miugdo, samyaro ki ise swrafad icvleba, rom nacnobi suraTi, pirdapiri mniSvnelobiT, Tvalsa da xels Sua iSleba.
– diax, samyaro icvleba da masTan erTad – Cvenc, radgan vcxovrobT samyaroSi, sadac erTi qveynis qmedebas, an sulac erTi kacis aqtivobas SeuZlia gamoiwvios talRiseburi efeqti, romelic mTel msoflioze gavrceldeba. magaliTad, erTi yvelasTvis ucnobi tuniseli gare gamyidvelis protestma miiyvana tuniselebi diqtatoris Camogdebamde, ramac, Tavis mxriv, gamoiwvia samoqalaqo omi libiaSi, es ki dasrulda natos intervenciiT 2012 wels, ramac, Tavis mxriv, trampi moiyvana xelisuflebaSi. man ise gaaZliera evroskeptikosebis da tradicionalistebis banaki, rom dRes swored maT da ara neoliberalur internacionalebs ekuTvniT pirveli xma. amas, samwuxarod, ver vityviT Cvens qveyanaze, sadac ultraliberaluri diskursi dRes iseve dominirebs, rogorc guSin, mixeil saakaSvilis dros, – ambobs publicisti.
– magram CvenTanac sul ufro xmamaRla gaismis tradicionalistTa xmebi. magaliTad, amas winaT saakaSvilmac ki, romelic aqamde cnobili iyo Tavisi memarcxene liberaluri SexedulebebiT, ganacxada: `bokeriam yvelaferi gaakeTa, raTa qristianul da qarTul tradiciebs daSoreboda. bokeria antiqristiania~. axali premieric daRvinebuli kaci da tradicionalistia akademiuri wreebidan.
– ai, xedavT? es myisve da talRiseburad aisaxa Cvenze. saakaSvils Seumcdari alRo aqvs. kargad grZnobs saerTaSoriso tendenciebs, rasac verc mis mrevlze vityviT da verc `qarTul ocnebaze~, romelic didwilad teqnokratebiT da bankirebiTaa dakompleqtebuli. am ruxi masisgan gamovyof ivaniSvilsa da gaxaria-volskis. isini dakompleqsebulebi arian, rom saakaSvilis momxreebma prorusuloba ar daabralon. mmarTvel gundSi araa saxarbielo viTareba, rac 2020 wlis arCevnebze katastrofiT SeiZleba damTavrdes. faqtia, mxolod gaxariaTi, volskiT da maTi uaxloesi wriT `qarTuli ocneba~ fons ver gava. saqme isaa, rom e.w. tradicionalizmi da evroskeptikosoba CvenTan mibmulia prorusulobasTan, amitom am mxriv rames Secvla Tu ginda, awydebi am talRaze mosul kadrebs da maT msoflaRqmas. aseTi kadrebi swored imis magaliTia, Tu rogori ar unda iyos Cinovniki da ratom ar unda dabrundes saakaSvilis reJimi, magram swored esaa `nacionaluri moZraobis~ interesi. isini wvrilmanebze ar xurdavdebian – duman arCevnebamde, momentamde, rodesac SesaZlebeli iqneba `ocnebis~ xerxemalSi gadamtvreva da ivaniSvilis faqtori aq ukve veRar imuSavebs, rogorc es 2012 wels moxda. maSin baTumelebi iZulebulni iyvnen, murman dumbaZe da misi samegobro aerCiaT, oRondac `nacebi~ wasuliyvnen xelisuflebidan. Zalian bevri problema dagrovda, 2020 wlisTvis meti dagrovdeba, `naci~ kadrebic meti iqneba, nepotizmic, arakompetenturoba da qurdobac, Tu droze ar mixedes aWaras gaxaria-volskim da, iqneb, Tavad ivaniSvilmac.
– Tqveni versiiT – saakaSvili mixvda, saiTken midis msoflio da unda gaxdes am Secvlili msoflios organuli nawili. misi mrevli mixvda Tu vera, mainc gahyveba mas, `ocnebaSi~ ki amas ver xvdebian, anda miSas mrevli Tavad `ocnebaSi~ SeewinaaRmdegeba an dablokavs saWiro ideebs, xalxs da isev saakaSvils gausufTavebs gzas, magram vfiqrob, rom `ocnebaSi~ esmiT es, amitomac gvyavs axali, gonieri, mtkice xasaTis premieri. miSa SeZlebs viTarebis Semotrialebas?
– saakaSvili guSindeli dRea, rogorc yvela is Zala, romelic imave ideologiur velze Zovs – vgulisxmob e.w. prodasavlur Zalebs. TumcaRa es pirobiTia, iseve, rogorc `prorusuloba~ am qveyanaSi. aris xalxi, vinc klasikuri realizmis formatSi moZraobs da es ivaniSvili, gaxaria, volski, burjanaZe da `patriotTa aliansia~ da vinc infantilizmiTaa Sepyrobili da e.w. prodasavluri Zalebia, rogorc Tavad uwodeben sakuTar Tavs. maT Sorisaa xazaraZec. garda imisa, rom is sityvasityviT imeorebs saakaSvilis da misi wris `mantrebs~, Rimilis momgvrelia isic, rom cdilobs asakSi gaxdes ilia WavWavaZe. Aarada, ilia marTali rom gaxde, siymawvileSi, minimum, d’artaniani unda yofiliyavi da ara gobseki.
– mkveTrad nacionalisturi, `globalistebis~ winaaRmdeg mimarTuli mesijiT warsdga trampi gaeros saparlamento asambleis sesiaze. . .
– `Tu gsurT mSvidoba, giyvardeT Tqveni eri. momavali ar ekuTvnis globalistebs, momavali ekuTvnis patriotebs, suverenul da damoukidebel erebs, romlebic sakuTar moqalaqeebze fiqroben, pativs scemen mezoblebs da im gansxvavebebs, romelsac TiToeuli qveyana qmnis~. dameTanxmebiT albaT, rom trampma warmoadgina ukiduresi memarjvene narativebi da globalisturi wreebis winaaRmdeg gailaSqra. ra Tqma unda, misi debiuti saerTaSoriso tribunaze iyo agresiuli da mosalodnelic. saqme imaSia, rom is marto aRaraa, vinmes an rames moeridos – mogexsenebaT, maisis arCevnebze evroparlamentSi tradiciulma evropam Seaviwrova neoliberaluri evropa, magram Cveni mediasaSualebebi, romlebic amerikeli da evropeli kolegebis aslia, amaze duman, an momxdaris mniSvnelobas aknineben. maTi neoliberaluri media da Sesabamisad, Cvenic, aSuqeben da beWdaven mxolod `TavianT~ eqspertebs, Semdeg es `eqspertebi~ kiTxuloben da uyureben amave mediis cnobebs da dadian wreze. gamovida globaluri sainformacio karuseli, romelsac Cveni media ubralod gadmobeWdavda da warmoadgenda rogorc evropul-amerikul trendsa da simarTles. amitomac aRmoCnda SokSi qarTuli sazogadoebis sakmaod didi nawili, vinc ar iyo iqaur niuansebSi Caxeduli. mec erTgvar SokSi Camagdo aSS-is prezidentis gancxadebam, rom `axlo aRmosavleTSi amerikis SeWra yvelaze uaresi gadawyvetileba iyo qveynis istoriaSi~. mTeli es periodi gveubnebodnen, rom iq demokratias icavdnen da Cveni qarTveli biWebic iq amitom iyvnen, magram rogorc aRmoCnda, isev tramps davesesxebi: `amerika omSi yalbi da mcdari mizezis gamo Caeba~. diax, erTi wlis win romelime qarTvel politikoss an Jurnalists Riad rom eTqva, rasac dRes trampi ambobs: `axlo aRmosavleTSi Sesvla Cveni qveynis istoriaSi yvelaze uaresi gadawyvetilebaa. Cven omSi CavebiT yalbi da rogorc dadasturda, mcdari Teoriis – masobrivi ganadgurebis iaraRis gamo. iq araferi aRmoCnda~, mas myisve prorusul propagandas daabralebdnen. magram dRes amas acxadebs trampi da Sesabamisad is namdvili amerika, romelic samkvdro-sasicocxlo brZolaSia Cabmuli neoliberalizmTan, romlis ideebiTa Tu midgomebiT jerjerobiT saqarTvelos didi nawili suldgmulobs. aq ra aris, iciT, gansakuTrebiT saintereso? Cven Statebi mogvwonda zustad im tradicionalizmis gamo, romelic SemdgomSi uaryves globalistebma. ase magaliTad, reigani gaxda prezidenti religiuri organizacia `moraluri umravlesobis~ wevrebis mxardaWeris wyalobiT da `borotebis imperiasac~ – sabWoTa kavSirs rogorc uRmerTo qveyanas, ise upirispirdeboda. dagvaviwyda es yvelaferi? neoliberalebs praqtikulad araferi aqvT saerTo mark tvenis, linkolnis da martin luTeris beber, keTil amerikasTan. raRac etapze, sabWoeTis daSlis Semdeg, roca ideologiuri vakuumi warmoiSva, maT gaimarjves da msoflio monopolaruli gaxda, TumcaRa dRes situacia mkveTrad Secvlilia. is kvlav xdeba mravalpolaruli, neoliberalizmi ki poziciebs Tmobs da axla ara mxolod sabWoTa kavSiris memkvidre ruseTia amerikis winaaRmdeg, aramed TurqeTi, CineTi, irani da a.S. mokled, samyaro sxvanairi da ufro rTuli xdeba, Cveni Jurnalistebi da politologebi an e.w. mediaeqspertebi ki (profesionalebs ver davarqmev) samyaros suraTs mxolod or ferSi xedaven da Zveli sqemebis tiraJirebas axdenen. erTxel aki giTxariT, unda iyo sruliad uniWo, anda sorosze, an ukidures SemTxvevaSi globalistur wreebze damokidebuli qarTveli politikosi, rom ver, an ar amCnevde msoflioSi mimdinare Seuqcevad cvlilebebs. TiTqos liberalur demokratias vemxrobiT, ara? magram Tanamedrove liberalizmi marTalia, aTvlas iwyebs lokidan, monteskiedan da volterisgan, romlebmac saxeli moixveWes absolutarizmTan, feodalizmTan da obskurantizmTan brZolaSi, magram masTan daaxloebiT iseve arian dakavSirebuli, rogorc biblia da Jurnali `pleiboi~ gutenbergis saxelTan. dakarga ra Tavdapirveli aristokratizmi, moxerxebuli gaiZverebisa da globalistebis xelSi liberalizmis Tanamedrove forma iqca Suqurad yvelasTvis, visi gemovnebac me-20-21 saukuneebSi gamoixata mebrZol aTeizmSi, ojaxis institutis uaryofaSi, lgbt-s warmomadgenelTa aRlumebSi, feministebis bakqanaliebSi da a.S. ukiduresobidan – ukiduresobaSi, ai, es iyo am warmavali epoqis xelwera – dedebis meZavebad qceva, ganmanaTleblebis retrogradebad warmoCena, moqalaqeebis kurtizanebis wreSi gamweseba, `gustav klimtebis~ treS-artiT Canacvleba – ai, es epoqa sruldeba! – magram es xom e.w. evropuli faseulobebia, Tu gvinda gavxdeT evropis nawili, gana ar unda gaviziaroT isini? – ama wlis 26 maisis evroparlamentis arCevnebis Sedegad moazrovne da tradiciulma evropam gvarianad Seaviwrova neoliberaluri evropa. Tu raa mas Semdeg e.w. evropuli faseulobebi, sakiTxavi Zalze seriozul doneebze iqneba…
– Tqven ambobT, rom evropaSi da mTlianad msoflioSi aseTi transformaciaa da mainc rogori SeiZleba iyos `swori~ uaxloesi momavali CvenTvis da ra uSlis amas xels am etapze?
– sworad SeniSneT, uSlis, magram veRar SeuSlis, radganac dialeqtikisa da bunebrivi kalapotis winaaRmdeg yvela xelovnuri konstruqcia Tu resursi uZluria. ra Tqma unda, bunebrivi kalapotis sawinaaRmdegod garkveuli wreebi muSaoben friad daxvewilad, rogorc xelgawafuli Sulerebi; specifikuri enjeoebi aaSkaraveben korufcionerebs, xelmokleebs iuridiul konsultaciebs uweven, miitaces e.w. mwvane Temac da a.S. saqmianobis SedegebiT Sesabamisi formatis medias amarageben, maT mimarT ndoba izrdeba, Sesabamisad, fulic moedineba, sxva danarCeni, isedac sulismRafavi media ganicdis kvdomas, radgan wonadobis kriteriumi CvenTan sorosis fondTan siaxloviT izomeba. saqme imaSia, rom saxelmwifo gasulia am saqmidan faqtobrivad, sxva ki aravinaa, amitom darCa eg veli soross, anda misi diskursis matarebel da, Sesabamisad, `nacionaluri moZraobis~ fulian gulSematkivrebs. sorosi `socialuri inJineriis~ geniaa – icis Tavisi saqme! yvelafer amasTan brZola Tamami garRvevis mqone ideologiis gareSe uimedo saqmea, Tumca mainc verafriT movereviT soross da mis adeptebs, sanam TviTon ar gveyoleba antisorosi. ki, batono, trampi da sxva konservatoruli Zalebi aviwroeben maT yvela flangze, magram ara – saqarTveloSi.
– pirdapir gkiTxavT, SevZlebT ki Tavidan moviSoroT sorosis yovlismomcveli gavlena ivaniSvilis gareSe?
– am etapze albaT vera, momavalSi – ki, magram kidev ramden xans unda velodoT am momavals, rodesac metastazebi vrceldeba. is erTaderTi kaci ki, visac amis SeCereba SeuZlia, dums. ratom? samagaliTo meojaxe da mecenati, cnobili Tavisi humanisturi da tradicionalisturi midgomebiT, metic, insaideruli informaciebis konservatorTa mxardamWeri ultraliberalTa winaaRmdeg, naTlad ar acxadebs, Tu visTanaa bolos da bolos, amas aqvs mxolod erTi pasuxi: vinaidan masmediis 90% neoliberalebis xelSia, xolo trampis fenomeni, ivaniSvilis TvalsazrisiT, aramyaria da StatebSi 2020 wlis arCevnebi SeiZleba trampis damarcxebiT dasruldes, Sesabamisad, memarcxene liberalizmis reinkarnaciiT, is Tavs ikavebs. Aarada, es araswori gaTvlaa! mTeli im pativiscemis miuxedavad, romelic maqvs mis mimarT, Tundac saakaSvilis moSorebis gamo, me, rogorc saqarTvelos moqalaqem, unda vuTxra, rom swored saqarTvelodan, romelic yvelaze metad dazaralda neoliberaluri swavlebiT, unda daiwyos cvlilebebi droulad! amisTvis sul cotaRaa saWiro – sagareo moRvaweobis saSinaosTan da sakuTar prioritetebTan sinqronizireba unda moaxdinos batonma biZinam da misma uaxloesma wrem, epoqaluri cvlilebebis impulsi daiWiros da imoqmedos Tavisi Sexedulebebisa da finansuri SesaZleblobebis Sesabamisad. kerZod, mxari dauWiros tradiciul ojaxur da genderul faseulobebs, Seqmnas sorosis mediisa da arasamTavrobo seqtoris alternatiuli saSualebebi, ND,,endiai” da saerTaSoriso respublikuri instituti sapirwone sociologiuri samsaxurebi da amiT mouspos maT sazogadoebrivi azriT manipulirebis saSualeba. Secvalos qveynis doqtrina da `miSistebis~ ridis gareSe elaparakos ruseTs `bez derakov~, gamoucxados ra principuli brZola korufcias, paralelurad gawmindos sakuTari partia faruli `miSistebisgan~ da Zveli korufcionerebisgan; aaSenos fabrikebi koncertebis gamarTvis nacvlad, aaRorZinos kultura popsavikebis mozRvavebis nacvlad – mixedos soflis meurneobas kazinoebis momravlebis magier, ZalovanTa suliskveTeba aamaRlos da, ra Tqma unda, gadaafasos saqarTvelos uaxlesi istoria, raTa daisajon isini, vinc damnaSavea ZmaTamkvleli omebis gaCaRebaSi, cxadia, maqsimalurad gulaxdili da Tavdadebuli unda iyos erisaTvis am sabediswero istoriis monakveTze da amisaTvis axali saxeebi da mokavSireebia saWiro – Zvelis antipodebi.