ლაზარე ზაქარიაძე: ქართული სახელმწიფო გონი მაბალანსებლის როლს ვეღარ ასრულებს
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Cveni qveynis geostrategiuli mdebareoba mudam msoflios politikuri interesebis arealSi eqceoda da saqarTvelos geopolitikur daniSnulebas gamokveTda. droTa samanebSi es interesebi icvleboda, amdenad ra funqcia da roli gvakisria da rogor viyenebT Cvens geostrategiul mdebareobas, Aam Temaze sasaubrod moviwvieT politikuri gaerTianeba `axali Zalis~ lideri, mwerali lazare zaqariaZe.
– Cvens qveyanas warsulSi yovelTvis hqonda idea, funqcia da geopolitikuri daniSnuleba. . . amJamad?
– Zalian miWirs imis Sesaxeb danamdvilebiT saubari Tu ra geopolitikuri roli da daniSnuleba hqonda saqarTvelos Tavisi istoriis ama Tu im monakveTSi. istoriul faqtebs, dokumentebsac rom daveyrdnoT, romlebic ama Tu im interpretaciiT sxvadasxva saxelmwifo Tu msoflmxedvelobriv poziciaze mdgomma istorikosma an mematianem warmoaCina, es Teoriaa mainc CemTvis. praqtika sxvaa mainc, rasac exebi, rasac xedav. gulwrfelebi Tu viqnebiT, dRes Cven araviTari geopolitikuri Tu geostrategiuli daniSnuleba ar gagvaCnia. msoflios vexvewebiT, gviSveleo. es gamogvdis, Tumca, jerjerobiT Svela arsaidanaa, calkeulma politikurma organizaciebma Tu e. w. politikurma figurebma (me maT fitulebs veZaxi rogorc Cems publikaciebSi, ise satelevizio gamosvlebSi) seriozuli moralur-finansuri dividendebi (Tanamdebobebi) moipoves ocdaaTwliani mojadoebuli wris sxvadasxva monakveTze – zogi guSin iyo ministri, zogi dResaa, zogic xval iqneba (ZiriTadad, erTi da igive xalxi), saqarTvelo ki dgas imave adgilas, gauqaneblad dgas, damsxvreuli, daqucmacebuli, gaTiTokacebuli. SeiZleba zogierTs es metaforul naTqvamadac moeCvenos, magram amave dros mkacri realobaa, vaRiaroT es.
– mezobel saxelmwifoTa agresiuli ganwyobis wyarod ramdenad miiCneva saqarTvelos geostrategiuli mdebareoba, damoukideblobis mopovebis Semdeg xelisuflebam ra saxis Secdomebi dauSva da SeiZleboda Tu ara maTi Tavidan acileba?
– modiT, ase vTqvaT, martivad: sabWoTa kavSiris daSlis Semdeg (es calke Temaa, daiSala ki sabWoTa kavSiri bolomde?) darRveuli msoflio-politikuri balansis pirobebSi, amerika upirispirdeba ruseTs, ufro zustad dasavleTi – aRmosavleTs, aRmosavleTSi iranic igulisxmeba, arabuli samyaroc da CineTic – es uzarmazari geopolitikuri sivrce. msoflio mxolod amerika da ruseTi xom ar aris? anda natos bloki da evropa Tundac, evrostruqturebi, rogorc Cven vuwodebT. msoflio bevrad ufro mravalsaxaa, mravalwaxnaga da Sida dapirispirebiT aRsavse rogorc kulturul-fsiqologiuri, religiuri da samxedro-ekonomikuri TvalsazrisiT. Sen rom patara saqarTvelo xar, amas sad wauxval? rogor gadaurCebi? an rogor gadarCenilxar aqamde? isev im kiTxvas davubrundiT nebsiT Tu uneblieT. Cemi azriT, saqarTvelos (ufro zustad – qarTul saxelmwifo gons) Tuki raime pozitiuri roli uTamaSia msoflios istoriaSi – es dambalanseblis rolia, momdevno pasuxebSi Tuki amis saSualeba momecema, Sevecdebi ufro ganvavrco da SeZlebisdagvarad CavuRrmavde kidec am Temas. amjerad ki vityvi: miWirs sxvis Secdomebze laparaki (sakuTari ver Semicnia), miT umetes xelisufalis Secdomebze saqarTvelos istoriis am urTules da ubundovanes monakveTSi da mainc vityvi, Secdomaa, aqeTken rom ar iswrafvis qarTuli saxelmwifo da qarTuli sazogadoeba – mabalanseblis, gamwonasworeblis rolisken. es Cveni Sinagani niSaa, Cveni buneba da fsiqologiaa da ara romelime zesaxelmwifos interesze mitmasneb-mikereba. ganvmeordebi da vityvi, amJamad Cven funqcia ar gagvaCnia, radgan aqeTken ar mivdivarT – sakuTari Tavisa da daniSnulebis wakiTxvisken praqtikuli politikis sferoSi, mabalanseblis rolisken. isev vasalis rols (sxvisi geostrategiuli interesis brma da umi msaxureba) vjerdebiT, magram saqme swored imaSi gaxlavT, rom Seqmnili viTarebidan gamomdinare (ukiduresi daZabulobis piki), es roli, jer erTi, aravis sWirdeba (ufunqcioa) da mere meore – Semsrulebel personaJTa (fsevdopolitikuri figurebis, igive fitulebis) saTadarigo skami bolomde amoiwura, gamoifita politikuri scena da Teatri, bolomde mokvda. Sesabamisad, viRac axali unda daibados – pirovneba, pirovnebebis jgufi. TiTqmis yvela vTanxmdebiT amaSi, xalxic da qveyanac, ara mxolod saqarTveloSi, sxvaTa Soris, mTel msoflioSi es krizisia – pirovnebis deficiti, politikuri amindis Semcvlelebi myavs mxedvelobaSi.
– ramdenad adekvaturad pasuxobda da pasuxobs saSinao da sagareo gamowvevebs qveynis politikuri elita?
– qveyana, saxelmwifo (xalxic agreTve, sazogadoeba), romelsac Tavisi unikaluri da ganumeorebeli saxe da adgili ver upovia msoflio politikur dafaze, romel gamowvevas upasuxebs? saxea mTavari. cxovrebaSic, Cveulebriv adamianur urTierTobebSic asea. kacs Tu sakuTari saxe ar gaaCnia, Tavisi ganumeorebeli profili, mas naklebad uweven angariSs, naklebad endobian. kacis kaci ra kacia, ara? dRes Cven, rogorc saxelmwifo, kacis kacebi varT mxolod da ara kacebi – pirveli piridan moyolebuli asea, saxelmwifo ierarqiis bolo safexuramde. ratom? imitom, rom saxelmwifo neba mravali welia ukve (damoukideblobidan – dRemde), ZiriTadad, gare inieqciiT ganisazRvreba finansuri da, aqedan gamomdinare, ideologiur-msoflmxedvelobrivi TvalsazrisiT. ra surs gare Zalas, es aris CvenTvis mTavari, nebsiT uneblieT asea, meqanikaa CarTuli, avtomatika. . . gare Zala ki, rogori megobaric unda iyos, verasodes da arasodes gagiwevs im samsaxurs, rasac Sen gauwev sakuTar Tavs. gana imitom, rom ar unda? SeiZleba unda kidec, Tundac sakuTari saxelmwifos interesidan gamomdinare, mTeli kulturuli da civilizebuli msoflio cdilobs Cvens daxmarebas (yovel SemTxvevaSi deklarirebulad asea), ubralod, ver gxedavs, ver aRgiqvams da aqedan gamomdinare, ver gexmareba, bolome ver Semodis Sens mdgomareobaSi. rogor Semova, an rogor daginaxavs, rodesac sakuTar Tavs Tavadve ver xedav – sakuTar saxes, potencials da raobas? sakuTar Tavs ar warmoadgen, Zalian martivad da uxeSad rom vTqvaT. es acdena Tu istoriuli kazusi Cveni patara saxelmwifos, rogorc gare, ise Sida politikur perimetrs exeba, ise rogorc adamianis cxovrebaSia: ar hgavxar Sens Tavs – arc Sin vargixar da arc gareT.
– Cveni dasavluri kursi Cvenma mdebareobam Tu ruseTis destruqciulobam ganapiroba?
– jer erTi, araviTari dasavluri kursi ar gagvaCnia, am sityvis Rrma gagebiT, rogorc socialur-ekonomikuri, ise politikuri TvalsazrisiT. qveyana, romelsac saSualo fena ar gaaCnia, dasavluri kursis rogor iqneba? deklarirebuli narativia es mxolod, rasac apiareben arasamTavroboebi da politikuri partiebi, ra Tqma unda, Jurnalistebis daxmarebiT, amaSi – wminda pragmatizmia CarTuli, calkeuli jgufuri merkantiluri interesebi, Torem miTxariT, aba, dasavlurad cxovrobs baTumi? aWara cxovrobs evropul yaidaze miaxloebiT Tundac? ra Tqma unda, ruseTis faqtori TamaSobs Tavis negatiur rols am srul saxelmwifo nonsensSi Tu gaugebrobaSi – zesaxelmwifoebis interesebis konfrontaciuli gadakveTa patara saqarTvelos teritoriaze. meore mxriv Sen, Tu Seni Tavi da saxe ar gagaCnia, fexze myarad ar dgaxar, ra mniSvneloba aqvs, saiTken aiReb gezs an bolos da bolos saidan gefiqreba es? sakuTari Tavi gagWirvebia. mogonilia es yvelaferi, TiTidan gamowovili da dakveTili, rasac calkeuli interesjgufebis merkantiluri miznebi udevs safuZvlad. ai, aseTi saSineli sinamdvilea mojadoebuli wris principiT nasazrdoeb-nakarnaxevi – saSineli Tu ara, damTrgunveli mainc.
– Cveni qveynis evroatlantikur struqturebSi gasawevrianeblad ra perspeqtivebi isaxeba momavlisaTvis?
– jer kidev SevardnaZis aparatSi Cemi muSaobis dRidan (ocdaaTi wlis win, warmoidgineT, igive propagandistuli narativi iyo – Cven unda SevideT natos blokSi, es aris mizani). ar mjeroda amis. jer erTi, es Tu iyo mizani, sabWoTa qveynis sagareo da uSiSroebis ministrebi rogor moxvdnen axalgamoCekili kavkasiuri saxelmwifoebis saTaveebSi? – alievi – azerbaijanSi da SevardnaZe _ saqarTveloSi? martivi Temaa da davfiqrdeT. sabWoTa kavSiri, garda imisa, rom garkveul ideologiaze aRzrdil xalxsa da sazogadoebas warmoadgenda, amave dros daqselili samxedro-teqnikuri manqanac gaxldaT, maT Soris wylis qveS da miwis qveS. es yvelaferi sad gaqra? sad wavida? arsadac ar wasula da swored imitomac uWirs evroatlantikur gaerTianebas Tu sxva evrostruqturebs Cveni realuri da sagnobrivi daxmareba – qaRaldze ki, sityvebiT, realurad – ara da vera, radganac es dasavluri saxelmwifoebisTvis SeiZleba katastrofulad damazianebel Sedegamde mivides. am wmindad Teoriul sakvebs (svla natos blokisken) SeiZleba axalgazrdoba miirTmevdes (maT Soris saxelmwifos saTaveSi mosuli da garedan marTuli ambiciuri axalgazrdebi, romlebic marcxiT asruleben marTvis aseT stilsa da kaligrafias da mainc xelisuflebisken miiltvian `nacionaluri moZraobis~ msgavsad) da amaSi Tavis pirad karieristul-merkantilur interessac debs cnobierad Tu aracnobierad. . . magram Cven Zveli Taoba ver moviqceviT ase, ufro bevri gvinaxavs da viciT sabWoTa kavSiris Sesaxeb da romelic, sxvaTa Soris, Segnebulad amoagdes (SevardnaZem SviliSvili datova marTvis saWesTan da ara Svili) mesaWeobis perspeqtividan (ivaniSvilma gaacocxla da gaagrZela es perspeqtiva – seifiT). vimeoreb, me veswrebodi sxdomebs, maT Soris amerikeli maRalCinosnebis doneze, rodesac batoni eduardi am veqtorsa da narativze laparakobda – evroatlantikuri gaerTianebisken. . . ram SegviSala xeli, rom sami aTeuli wlis ganmavlobaSi momxdariyo am organizaciebSi gawevrianeba? kiTxvas upasuxod davtoveb, ubralod, vifiqroT, droa.
– rogorc Semdgari qarTuli saxelmwifo, visTvis varT saWiro da visTvis – ara?
– rogorc Semdgari saxelmwifo, Cven yvelasTvis varT saWiro, saWiro ki ara, aucilebeli, ubralod, msoflio jer ver acnobierebs amas, ver gvcnobs, ruseTic – bunebrivia, pirvel rigSi, radgan saqarTvelos rRveva ruseTis rRvevacaa perspeqtivaSi (SeiZleba asecaa Cafiqrebuli sxva zesaxelmwifos strategiuli interesidan gamomdinare). vfiqrob, rusi saxelmwifo moxeleebi unda acnobierebdnen amas, unda xedavdnen. jerjerobiT aseTi xedva ar ikveTeba da amas Tavisi obieqturi mizezic aqvs, garda subieqturisa. saqme is gaxlavT, rom qarTuli saxelmwifo goni mabalanseblis im rols veRar asrulebs, rac istoriis ganmavlobaSi Jamidan Jamamde hqonda. magaliTad, stalini, Cemi azriT, kremlSi gangebiT Caxraxnili qarTuli saxelmwifo gonia – Zveli, arqauli. SemTxveviT xelSi Camivarda ialtis, Teiranis da potsdamis konferenciebis stenografuli Canawerebi. Tu stalinma ar Tqva `marTalia~, saqme ar wydeba, sakiTxi. ki gaxsovT, amerikisa da inglisis saxelmwifos meTaurebs Soris ganixileboda, man Seqmna israelis saxelmwifo, germanias sicocxle SeunarCuna (misi sruli daSla hqonda ganzraxuli SeerTebul Statebs) da, rac mTavaria, msoflios ruseTi daanaxa – misi Zala da buneba. amis daviwyeba SeiZleba? imis nacvlad, rom rusebma qarTvelSi rusuli saxelmwifos restavratoris potencia da buneba dainaxon (keTilmosurne), awkavwkavebuli lekvis pozaSi Cagvayenes mixeil saakaSvilis da mTeli `nacmoZraobis~ saxiT (rusuli proeqtia iribi – ZvelsabWouri – Cveni qveynisTvis saSinel perspeqtivaze borotad gaTvlili) rac dResac grZeldeba (ruseTo, dagvanebe Tavi, dasavleTo, gviSvele). cdiloben, rom gaagrZelon (fuls akeTeben amasobaSi calkeuli interesjgufebi), magram… vera. msoflio icvleba, icvlebian adamianebi, fsiqologiurad icvlebian, sulierad, mentalurad. am cvlilebebs veravin dauZvreba da verc Secvlis.
– ra unda gakeTdes imisaTvis, rom ruseTi daemorCilos saerTaSoriso samarTlis normebs?
– ruseTi rom daemorCilos? saintereso kiTxvaa… Cemi azriT, amisTvis saWiroa, msoflioc daemorCilos igives, maT Soris amerikis SeerTebuli Statebi, romelic Wris da keravs (am bolo Jams arabul samyarosac, ramac evropisken winaswarganusazRvreli migraciuli procesebi gamoiwvia) geopolitikas Tavis Targze da gemoze demokratiis saxeliT da sousiT. swored es unda Sewydes aqeTa (ruseTis) Tu iqiTa (amerikis) mxridan. es ki rom Sewydes, goneba unda daibados, mabalanseblis saxelmwifo goneba. sxvaTa Soris, erTma moskovSi moRvawe baTumelma profesorma Tavisi studentis naSromze mimiTiTa, romelic mecnierulad amtkicebs: giorgi saakaZe warmoadgenda msofliosTvis aseTs. SeiZleba. . .