ირაკლი კუპრაძე: ქართული საზოგადოება მიეჩვია ორ პოლუსს – ან ,,ნაცი” ხარ, ან ,,ქოცი”
ირმა ცეცხლაძე: 27 48 93 –
politikurma gaerTianebam `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ baTumis regionuli ofisi gaxsna, aWaris warmomadgenlad ki irakli kupraZe dasaxelda.
ra miznebi amoZravebs axal Zalas da ras akeTebs winasaarCevno periodis warmatebulad warmarTvisaTvis, amaze saubrobs interviuSi irakli kupraZe.
– dasawyisisTvis, mokled mimovixiloT `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ Camoyalibebis istoria.
– igi 2019 wlis 22 dekembers, sagangebo yrilobiT dafuZnda, romelzec davadgineT politikuri organizaciis xelmZRvaneloba da politikuri sabWo, rogorc gadawyvetilebis mimRebi mTavari da mmarTveli organo. damfuZneblebi da politsabWos wevrebi arian mamuka xazaraZe, daviT usufaSvili, badri jafariZe, ana nacvliSvili, kaxa koJoriZe, grigol gegelia, saba buaZe, lana galdava da a.S. sul 17 adamiani, maT Soris – mec.
– ratom gadawyvites am sxvadasxva politikuri gemovnebis da Sexedulebebis adamianebma gaerTianeba?
– gaerTianeba gadagvawyvetina arsebulma politikurma da ekonomikurma krizisma, romelic qveyanas ufskrulisken miaqanebs. am etapze vimyofebiT orpolusian politikur sistemaSi, romlis erT mxares dgas `qarTuli ocneba~ da biZina ivaniSvili, meore mxares ki `nacionaluri moZraoba~ da mixeil saakaSvili. orive Zala ukve warsulSia, miuxedavad imisa, rom erTi jer isev marTavs qveyanas. amas imitom vambob, rom `qarTulma ocnebam~ gaiTavisa yvela is mankiereba, romelTa winaaRmdeg sabrZolveladac airCia is xalxma. vgulisxmob: sasamarTlosTan, prokuraturasTan, korufciasTan, municipalur adgilobriv mmarTvelobasa Tu decentralizaciasTan damokidebulebas. maTi saTaveSi mosvliT TiTqmis araferi Secvlila, piriqiT, kidev ufro damZimda, gacvda mosaxleobis finansuri da moraluri mdgomareoba.
– batono irakli, sazogadoeba miiCnevs, rom `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ `nacionaluri moZraobis~ erT-erTi ganStoebaa. . .
– ase moiazrebs?! principSi, es arc aris gasakviri, radgan qarTuli sazogadoeba mieCvia or poluss: an `naci~ xar, an `qoci~. zogs erTi miaCnia samarTlianad, sxvebs – meore. Cven ki swored imitom CamovyalibdiT damoukidebel politikur Zalad, rom orives moRvaweoba davasruloT da gavuSvaT saxlSi. `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ daafuZnes im adamianebma, romlebic orive reJimis mimarT iyvnen kritikulad ganwyobilni. magaliTad, mamuka xazaraZe orjer gakotrda `nacionalebis~ mmarTvelobisas da mis mimarT sisxlis samarTlis saqme aRZres. aqve arian ana nacvliSvili da daviT usufaSvili – yvelam iciT, rogor ibrZodnen isini `nacionalebis~ winaaRmdeg. gaixseneT kaxa koJoriZe, romelic maSinac da axlac ibrZvis, lana galdava, romelic `nacionalur moZraobas~ gamoeyo maSin, rodesac saxalxo damcvelis aparatSi xelmZRvanel poziciaze iyo. igive pozicia maqvs mec – 2011-2012 wlebSic da axlac, vibrZvi. anu Cven is adamianebi varT, romlebic rogorc wina, aseve amJamindel xelisuflebas vakritikebT, radgan bevr Secdomas vxedavT, romlis gamosworeba aucilebelia qveynis gadarCenisTvis.
– gindaT TqvaT, rom `qarTuli ocneba~ wina xelisuflebis analogia?
– diax, araferi Secvlila mas Semdeg. `qarTuli ocneba~ kidev ufro gonieri, eSmakuri da cbieri gaxda. Tavad daakvirdiT, Tuki `nacmoZraoba~ aSkarad radikaluri iyo sakuTar qmedebebSi da amiT xalxs sawinaaRmdegod ganawyobda, axlandel xelisufalTa politika TiTqos ufro loialuria. aRar Cans xelketebi, saxlebSi Ram-RamobiT Sevardnebi, darbevebi, Zaladoba, magram darCa biznesebis warTmeva, urCebis samsaxurebidan gaSveba da a.S. Tumca erT darbevas ki SeveswariT – 2019-is 20 ivniss vgulisxmob. kadrebis SerCevis politikaSic ufro meti cbierebiT gamoirCevian, biZina ivaniSvili mal-male cvlis im mmarTvel figurebs, romlebmac ndoba amowures. Zlierad aamuSaves piaric. amisTvis, ZiriTadad, socialur qselebs iyeneben. swored `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ iyo is Zala, romelmac gamoaaSkarava koka yandiaSvili, romelic rusTavelis quCis #
12-dan e.w. trolebis qarxanas xelmZRvanelobda. axla mouwiaT sxvagan gadasvla. yvelafers erT interviuSi ver CamovTvli. ar mogvwonda `nacmoZraobis~ odiozuri figurebi, Tumca ra moxda Semdeg? biZina ivaniSvilma Tavad dauZaxa am adamianebs da Seiyvana sakuTar gundSi. dRes anzor bolqvaZe, `nacmoZraobis~ orgzis deputati, `qarTuli ocnebis~ mTavari dasayrdeni Zalaa zemo aWaraSi, igive enzel mkoiani – axalqalaqSi, vano zardiaSvili, adeiSvilis marjvena xeli, romelic sasamarTloSi yvela borotebas awerda xels, 2012 wlidan gverdiT hyavs. amas mTavroba mokled akomentarebs: `manamde Tuki cud saqmeebs sCadioda, axla mxolod kargs akeTebs~. es aris saxelmwifos damangrevelTa zneoba.
– `lelos~ aWaris regionuli organizacia, aWaris umaRlesi sabWos arCevnebis srulad proporciuli sistemiT Catarebis iniciativiT gamovida. . .
– diax, Cven gamovediT am iniciativiT da moviTxoveT, rom aWaris umaRlesi sabWos anu adgilobrivi sakanonmdeblo organos arCevnebi Catardes srulad proporciuli sistemiT. am modelze gadasvliT, aWara, rogorc didi ekonomikuri potencialis mqone regioni, sadac inteleqtis, kulturul-istoriuli tradiciebis uzarmazari resursia Cadebuli politikur-ekonomikuri Tu saganmanaTleblo procesebis warmarTvisTvis, SeZlebs gaxdes mowinave da warmatebuli rogorc demokratiuli arCevnebis Catarebis kuTxiT, ise saxelmwifos ganviTarebaSi Setanili wvliliT, anu SevZlebT vuCvenoT klasi mTel qveyanas.
– ratom maincdamainc proporciuli arCevnebi?
– imitom, rom es modeli aris swori, samarTliani da srulad warmoaCens amomrCevlis nebas. yvela xma, Tanasworobis dacvis principiT, aisaxeba sakanonmdeblo organos dakompleqtebisas. es sistema imdenad srulyofilia, rom adgili aRar darCeba adgilobrivi donis feodalebisTvis. isini xom erTgzis ki ara, or-sam da oTxgzis deputatebi arian ukve. maT datvirTvac ki aRar gaaCniaT, mxolod imaze fiqroben, rogor moisyidon Cinovnikebi, sad gaCexon tyeebi, ra fasad SeiZinon da Semdeg sarfianad gayidon adgilobrivi madneuli. . . Tavidan akritikeben qalaqis katastroful urbanul situacias, Semdeg ki ayalibeben sakuTari siZeebis Tu sxva axlo naTesavebis saxelze samSeneblo kompaniebs da skvers aRar toveben amosasunTqad.
– Tqveni gancxadebiT: `baTumi urbanuli katastrofis winaSe dgas da es iqneba erT-erTi problema, romlis mogvarebazec gaerTianeba izrunebs~. iqneb dagvikonkretoT?
– Tavadac xedavT, baTumSi, inasariZis quCaze ra xdeba, rogor aWrian bulvars patar-patara nakuwebs, samSeneblo lobi imdenad Zlieria, municipalitetma dRemde ver miiRo qalaqis ganaSenianebis generaluri gegma, romelic daasrulebda yoveldRe mimdinare am urbanul genocids. marTalia, bevrs verafers uSvelian ukve, magram raRacis gadarCena xom maincaa SesaZlebeli? moqalaqeebi xedis gamo yiduloben binebs da ukve meore dRes maT Tvalwin uzarmazari kedlebi Sendeba. rodis unda moeRos am ganukiTxaobas bolo? umZimes ekologiur mdgomareobaSia garemo, qalaqi da Tavad baTumelebi. Tu Cven vsaubrobT qveynis momavalze, SeuZlebelia amaze ar ilaparako, guli ar Segtkiodes sakuTari Svilebis xvalindel dReze. es xdeba im dros, rodesac yvela lobisti zis parlamentSi. samSeneblo seqtoris lobisti calkea, vaWrobis – calke, turistuli obieqtebis lobistebi Tu navTobis – calke. swored aman migviyvana iqamde, rom verc samSeneblo, verc Sromis, verc sawvavis usafrTxoebisa da xarisxis regulaciebi miviReT. yovelive es Cvens irgvliv, yoveldRiur reJimSi xdeba, radgan feodalebi da konkretuli interesebis mqone adamianebi iReben sakanonmdeblo gadawyvetilebebs sakuTari interesebidan gamomdinare da ara – qveynis, xalxis sakeTildReod.
– winasaarCevno poziciebis gaSuqebis sakmaod didi gamocdileba maqvs. merwmuneT, absoluturad yvela politikuri Zala analogiurad saubrobda problemebis warmoCenisas. ra garantia gvaqvs, rom Tqveni gamarjvebis SemTxvevaSic ar moxvdebian igive lobistebi axal parlamentSi da iseve ar gagrZeldeba qveynis `Seneba~?
– saintereso SekiTxvaa, Tumca gaixseneT, saidan modian is politikosebi, romlebic Cvenamde aRmoCndnen politikaSi? saidan movidnen biZina ivaniSvili, irakli kobaxiZe, arCil TalakvaZe, mamuka mdinaraZe. . . es adamianebi ar arsebobdnen sajaro sivrceSi. igive Tornike riJvaZes an jaba futkaraZes raimesTvis mainc ebrZolaT, sanam savarZlebSi aRmoCndebodnen, gaxsovT vinmes?
– Cven revolucionerebic gvixilavs savarZlebSi, Tundac gamsaxurdias periodSi, ramac ar gaamarTla da qveyana ekonomikur kolafsSi aRmoCnda. saakaSvilma `Carecxilebi~ uwoda 35-wlis zemoT asakis adamianebs da quCaSi gayara. Sedegad ra miviReT? sakadro resursis mwvave deficiti.
– zviad gamsaxurdias magaliTi ar aris relevanturi. im periodSi ar gagvaCnda gamocdileba damoukideblad marTvis gamocdileba, radgan aTwleulebis ganmavlobaSi kremli gvmarTavda. dRes mzad varT xelisuflebaSi mosasvleladac da politikuri gadawyvetilebis misaRebadac. Tanac ar vapirebT kvalificiuri, mcodne kadrebis gaSvebas, Tundac teqnokratebis. piriqiT, maT samsaxurebs gavaZlierebT ucxoeTSi ganaTlebamiRebuli axalgazrdebiT, romlebic dResdReobiT aq samsaxurs ver pouloben, radgan nepotizmi mZvinvarebs. aqve davazusteb, Tu ratom unda movidnen aRmasrulebel xelisuflebaSi mebrZoli adamianebi: Tundac imitom, rom me wlebis ganmavlobaSi vibrZodi ganaTlebis politikis cvlilebisTvis, Sromis kodeqsisTvis, garemos dacvisTvis – es CemTvis sasicocxlod mniSvnelovania, Rirebulebis standartia da ar davuSveb mis ugulebelyofas. Cveni tragedia isaa, rom mavanni, gadawyvetilebebs rom gvaxveven Tavs, Rirebulebebidan gamomdinare ki ara, sakuTari interesebis Tu Sexedulebis mixedviT moqmedeben. maT ara aqvT Tanagancda im studentis mimarT, romelsac ar gaaCnia Tanxa swavlis gadasaxadisTvis, im Suaxevis mkvidrTan, cxovreba mewyris SiSma rom daungria, im garemovaWresTan, ulukmapurod rom darCa da a.S. adamiani, romelsac Tanagancda ar aqvs da mxolod biurokratad rCeba, ver gaaumjobesebs Cvens yofas, socialur fons, cxovrebas.
– saqarTvelos mosaxleobis didi nawili sabanko procentebis gamo finansur monobaSi, kabalur mdgomareobaSi imyofeba. apirebT Tu ara, xelisuflebaSi mosvlis SemTxvevaSi, mZarcveluri procentebis dawevas?
– nebismieri sabanko regulacia, sasesxo ganakveTi dakavSirebulia qveynis ekonomikis mdgradobasa da stabilurobasTan. ganakveTebs adgens ara fizikuri Tu iuridiuli piri, aramed arsebuli ekonomikuri garemo. procentebis klebisTvis aucilebelia gajansaRebuli ekonomika, risTvisac amJamad vibrZviT. Cven vnaxeT am bolos SemoRebuli gamkacrebuli sabanko regulaciebi sesxis gacemis Taobaze, ramac ara mxolod bankebs, Tavad moqalaqeebsac gaurTula cxovreba.
– gamosvlebSi saqarTveloze, rogorc sazRvao qveyanaze saubrobdiT, am mimarTulebiT ra winadadebebi da mosazrebebi gaqvT?
– sazRvao mimarTulebas erT-erTi mniSvnelovani, principuli adgili uWiravs Cvens saarCevno programaSi. aqcenti gakeTdeba rogorc sazRvao ganaTlebaze, ise – mezRvaurTa uflebebis dacvis departamentis Seqmnaze. igi SeZlebs Cveni moqalaqeebis dacvas ucxoeTis kompaniebSi, sadac isini saqmdebian. kargad gvaxsovs, ucxoeTSi daRupuli mezRvaurebic, romelTa saqmeebi jer kidev Seuswavleli da gamoukvlevelia. es saxelmwifos prerogativa unda gaxdes da mezRvauroba unda daubrundes usafrTxo profesiaTa ricxvs. aqve vaxseneb anakliis proeqtsac, romelsac Cveni programis strategiul safexurad vTvliT. mas dRemde lobireben aSS-is, natos warmomadgenlebi, romlebic acxadeben, rom anakliis porti unda iyos usafrTxoebis garantia saqarTvelosTvis. gemebis 70% dRemde ver Semodis qveyanaSi, radgan ar gagvaCnia sakmarisad Rrmawylovani porti da ver xdeba saxelmwifos, rogorc satranzito qveynis sruli datvirTviT amuSaveba.
– dasasrul ganmarteT, konkretulad ras hpirdebiT amomrCevlebs?
– pirvel rigSi – axal samuSao adgilebs. mogexsenebaT, CineTidan didi sawarmoebis gatana iwyeba. evropa eZebs mimdebare qveynebs, sadac isini `agugundeba~. gveZleva unikaluri Sansi, radgan gagvaCnia udidesi potenciali am kuTxiT. gaformebuli gvaqvs evropasTan asocirebis da vaWrobis xelSekrulebebi. SesaZlebelia aSS-Tanac Tavisufali vaWrobis xelSekrulebis gaformeba, Tuki moisurvebs CineTidan sawarmoebis gadmotanas, anu es aris erTaderTi gza, romelsac Tuki gavyvebiT, ara mxolod adgilobrivebs davasaqmebT, aramed ucxoeTSi gadaxvewil emigrantebsac davabrunebT da sxva qveynebidanac moviwvevT muSaxels. saqarTvelo gaxdeba uaxlesi teqnologiebis, dasaqmebis da ganaTlebis centri, am yvelafrisTvis ki saWiroa saerTaSoriso avtoriteti, romelic biZina ivaniSvils ar gaaCnia.
– da vin sargeblobs am avtoritetiT Tqveni partiidan?
– mamuka xazaraZe, badri jafariZe da daviT usufaSvili. es adamianebi gavidnen msoflio politikur-ekonomikur arenaze, rogorc udidesi aqtorebi, romlebic aRiara londonis safondo birJam da saerTaSoriso Tanamegobrobam. am xalxTan partnioroba sandoa da martivi. minda aRvniSno isic, rom kargi iqneba, mTavroba Tu moismins da gaiTvaliswinebs pandemiasTan dakavSirebuli problemis mogvarebis Cveneul xedvas. Cven ar varT Casafrebulebi, piriqiT, mzrunveli poziciidan vsaubrobT. samomavlod ki, rodesac Seicvleba xelisufleba, qveyanas krizisidan krizis-menejerebi gamoiyvanen, radgan maT gaaCniaT gamocdileba, rogor unda aamuSaon qarxnebidan dawyebuli, saganmanaTleblo dawesebulebebiT damTavrebuli, qveyanaSi arsebuli yvela obieqti. garwmunebT, `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ erTaderTi politikuri Zalaa, romelic SesZlebs gamarjvebas da izrunebs saqarTvelos moqalaqeebis keTildReobaze.
