,,ბევრი ცოდვაა კაცისკვლის ტოლფასი”
èïîòíï èòàïòøâòäò: 593 31 73 90 –
zurab cincqilaZe Teatrisa da kinos popularuli msaxiobia, gadaRebuli aqvs dokumenturi filmebi `memed batono~ da `baTumis omi~ (z. buaZesTan erTad). baTumSi daafuZna kinostudia `aWara~, romlis samxatvro xelmZRvanelic gaxldaT. misi karieris adreul etapzeve (1985 w.) gamoirCa erovnuli gmiris gansaxierebiT kinofilmSi `mevludi~. mas Semdeg kidev araerTi personaJi Seqmna kinoSi, magram, rac mTavaria, wlebis ganmavlobaSi Tbilisis metexis Teatris wamyvani msaxiobi gaxldaT. amasTan, erT-erTma pirvelma moawera xeli am istoriuli Senobis eklesiisTvis gadacemis moTxovnas.
gansakuTrebiT bevri saxe zurab cincqilaZem radioTeatrSi Seqmna, romlebic dRes `oqros fondSi~ binadroben. amJamad Tavs mkvlevarad ufro Tvlis. aseTi formulireba Cvenia, Tavad ki ambobs, rom sxva saqmeebiT ufroa dakavebuli. es `sxva saqmeebi~ qarTul enaSi CaRrmaveba, masSi dafaruli codniT saqarTveloze ufro metis gagebis survilia. am sityvebis damadasturebel araerT faqts waikiTxavT masTan dRevandel Cvens interviuSi, Tumca aqve darwmundebiT, rom sulac ar daunebebia Tavi msaxiobis profesiisTvis da axlac araerT proeqtSi monawileobs. mTavari ki, rac masTan saubrisas, urTierTobisas ikveTeba, aris dauSreteli moTxovnileba azrovnebisa, Semecnebisa, rogorc Tavad ambobs, imisTvis, rom vicodeT, saqarTvelo ra aris. xSirad misi azrovnebis niaRvari (sxvas ver davarqmev sityvebis nakads intervius Caweris dros) ise waglekavs, sakuTari SekiTxvebic SeiZleba dagaviwydes, misi azrebis msvleloba, rogorc xSirad xdeba spontanuri saubrisas, xandaxan winaaRmdegobrivicaa, sakamaToc. . . . Tumca daskvnebs Tqven mogandobT. erTi ram udavoa – Cven saintereso pirovnebasTan da profesionalTan saubars gTavazobT, romelSic ramdenime dinebaa – `araseriozuli~, seriozuli da Zalian seriozuli.
– cxovrebis umetesi nawili baTumsa da TbilisSi gaqvs gatarebuli. romeli ufro xar – baTumeli Tu Tbiliseli?
– aseTi mikuTvnebebis (Tbiliseli, baTumeli) sastiki winaaRmdegi var. es Tavsmoxveuli ideologiis erT-erTi nawilia – rom me ki ara var am kuTxis Svili, davuSvaT, aWareli, kaxeli, guruli, svani. . . aramed var soxumeli, baTumeli, quTaiseli, Tbiliseli. . . es SeiZleba iyos ara im eTnosis warmomadgeneli, romlisganac Sedgeba saqarTvelo. baTumeli aris edilianic da abulaZec xulodan da sadaurebi arian eseni saerTod, ver mixvdebi. damkvidrda aseTi tendencia, rom, magaliTad, TbilisSi xulodan Camosul momRerals, romelmac baTumSi mxolod gamoiara, rom hkiTxo, sadauria, baTumelio, gipasuxebs. aseTi terminologiebi Semoitana Cvenma mterma, romelic ar Cans, axla ucnaur rames vambob, pirvelad – SenTan. megobari myavs, romelic TurqeTSi, ankaraSi cxovrobs as ormocdaaTi welia da rom kiTxaven, sadauri xaro, pasuxobs, rom qobuleTelia. ase rom, Tu amgvarad vityviT, me arc baTumeli var, arc Tbiliseli, aramed – orTabaTumeli.
– ra gaswavla am orma qalaqma saTiTaod?
– mwared damamaxsovrda am uaxloesi warsulis baTumelebis Cemdami damokidebuleba 2004 wels. . . adamiani sakuTar Tavs eqstremalur situaciaSi gamoavlens xolme, baTumelic ar viyavi me maSin maTTvis, visac TeatrSi, universitetSi (proreqtori gaxldiT) Cemi yofna, televiziidan Cemi xmis gagoneba ar undodaT, jerjerobiT maxsovs es yvelaferi. . . viswavle is, rom adamiani umaduri da Suriania (icinis). . . SeiZleba siyvarulmac icis – daTvs siyvaruliT Tavisi beli SemoeWamao. TbilisSi rom Cavedi, 16 wlis viyavi, egreve movxvdi Teatralur institutSi. im drois surneli Zalian kargad maxsendeba. . . cudi – saerTod, araferi.
– Suriani adamianebi TbilisSi ar cxovroben?
– ho, magram maTTan ar mqonia kavSiri, Tumca iqac moxda raRac. metexis Teatridanac politikis gamo momiwia wamosvla – zviads uWer mxarso. es iyo 1988 wels, gamaTavisufles, roca sabWoTa kavSiri daingra da visac es ar undoda, isini sastikad mdevnidnen. rogorc Cans, es simware damaviwyda da kargi gamaxsenda. baTumTan dakavSirebiTac ase moxdeba. minda wyena gamineldes, magram jer mZlevs im siaveebis gaxseneba. . . baTumgoraze rom SesaniSnavi kinostudia iyo, holivudis msgavsis gakeTeba SeiZleboda, arada, axla iq, sadac kinostudia iyo, yvelaferi ucxotomels ekuTvnis, magram man ki ar daipyro, Cven miveciT. `nacebis~ droindeli erT-erTi ministri ambobda, minda kinostudia davafuZnoo. isic ki ar icoda, rom kinostudia iyo da moaSTes. is ki arada, Coloqze Zlivs gadavaswari mag xalxs, mogvdevdnen. gurulebs Sevafare Tavi (icinis). . .
– guriasac mivadeqiT, sadac gaizarde. ra daganaTles gurulebma?
– Cems suls rac daaCnda, aRmatebuli, yvelaferi iq moxda. bebiasTan vizrdebodi da axla Cems bavSvobas rom gadavxedav, iq iyo Cemi sulis wvrTna. bavSvobis yvela Sukis surneli maxsovs. . . madloba RmerTs, rom baTumidan Tbilisamde da piriqiT mgzavrobisas, gzaze vxedav Cems saxls guriaSi da maxsendeba, CanTiT rogor mivdiod-movdiodi skolidan, alublis baRebs. . . siyvarulic iq viswavle. aqamdec miTqvams, rom eTer galogre da dali fircxalaiSvili Cemi pirveli siyvarulebi arian – maT maswavles, rogoria namdvili siyvaruli. bavSvobaSi rom giyvars, namdvili is aris. iqidan swavlob, mere da mere rom Segiyvardeba vinme, Wabukobisas, WkuaSi rom xar ukve Cavardnili, im grZnobebs adareb da xvdebi, namdvilia Tu ara. sxvaTa Soris, miniaturebi, Canaxatebi maqvs dawerili guriaze. erTic unda vTqva – guruli Tavis miwazea Zalian magari, sxvagan is sxvanairia. saerTod, asea – Sens miwaze, Sens samkvidroSi xar is, rac xar da baTumeloba samkvidrebels ar niSnavs. baTumeli aris mosul-wasuli, aseve – Tbiliseli. samkvidro miwas mowyvetili titanic ki Zalas rom kargavs, odiTgan viciT.
– mSoblebze, mgoni, interviuebSi araferi giTqvams. gagvacani isini.
– mSoblebi sul menatrebodnen. es grZnoba ra aris, iqidan maxsovs, monatrebac unda genatrebodes. wlis da sami Tvis rom viyavi, Cemi Zma daibada. bebiaCemma (dedis mxridan) Tqva, weviyvan am baRanes meo. . . da wamiyvana guriaSi. dedaCemi saswavleblad CamobrZanda lanCxuTidan pedagogiur saswavlebelSi, mamaCems, rostom cincqilaZes, moewona, suraTebidanac Cans, lamazi qali rom iyo. dainaxa da pirdapir moitaca. iq bebia-biZaCemebi gadairivnen, erTma WaSi kinaRam daixrCo Tavi (icinis), Zlivs amoiyvanes – TaTarma waiyvanao. aq, aWaraSi, meore bebia gadairia – giauri momiyvanao. mokled, aseTi ambebis Sedegad Seiqmna ojaxi. me sul ase vicodi, rom `TaTari~ viyavi.
– guls gtkendnen albaT?
– sul ar maxsendeba mwared, magram Roris meSinoda gansakuTrebiT aWarelTan dakavSirebiT mware gamonaTqvamis gamo, am cxovelma rom erT adgilas ukbina (gulianad icinis). ara, namdvilad tkbilad maxsendeba im Roris Cxinkoris sunTan erTad – SukaSi, urmebis Wrialic, – zurabiiii, – bebiaCemis Zaxili. . . mama navTobgadasamuSavebeli qarxnis muSa iyo, amasTan meurnec, dRes rom fermers eZaxian. saocrad mowesrigebuli ezo-kari hqonda. deda, nazi imnaiSvili, axlac orTabaTumSia. msayvedurobs xolme, sul bebiaze rom laparakob, me SenTvis ramdeni ram gavakeTe, is ratom ar gaxsovso. wyins, mas rom ar vaxseneb. bebikos ki erqva dariko fircxalaiSvili.
– vin arian adamianebi, romlebmac Sens pirovnebad Camoyalibebaze gavlena moaxdines?
– erT-erTi gaxldaT Teatralur institutSi Cemi pirveli pedagogi rezo mircxulava, aseve, leila kapanaZe – givi berikaSvilis meuRle, romelmac pirveli xuTiani damiwera da CemSi literaturis siyvaruli, metyvelebisadmi da qarTuli sityvisadmi midgoma da siyvaruli gaaRviva. sarwmunoebisadmi damokidebuleba ki bebiis zegavlenaa, sakraluri. . . pirvel seqtembramde xuTi dRiT adre Cavdiodi sofelSi, skolisTvis rom movmzadebuliyavi. maxsovs, erTxel, Zalian maRali sicxe rom mqonda, bebiam sanTlis ZafiT amiRo zoma, Tan butbutebda, RmerTo, gadamirCine da amis sigrZe sanTels daginTebo. RvTismSoblobaze fexSiSveli midioda jixeTis monasterSi. manamde mWads gamomicxobda, Roms gamikeTebda da damitovebda saWmelad. sanam SuxuTidan jixeTSi fexSiSveli avidod-Camovidoda, saRamo dgeboda. man Semayvara fexSiSveli siarulic. ar giWamia ai, bebia? – SemekiTxeboda, roca dabrundeboda. ra maWmevda martos?! Cemi siktili, movkali mSieri baRanaio. es damokidebuleba mSier kuWs ki ar mivsebda, suls mitenida…
– vici, rom religiuri adamiani xar. ramdenad gamogdis aTi mcnebis Sesruleba? Cven xom Zalian gvinda, srulyofilebi viyoT, magram ar gamogvdis. . .
– me Cemi damokidebuleba maqvs. qriste swored am aTi mcnebis Sesaxeb brZanebs: `ara moved daxsnad, aramed aRsrulebad~. ara mxolod man mohkla, vinc sisxli daRvara, aramed man, romelmac meores guli atkina. ar minda Sesawiravi, wadi da visac emduri, mas Seurigdio, amasac brZanebs macxovari da es Zalian mniSvnelovania CemTvis. aseTi midgoma da amnairi fiqrebi da damokidebuleba gamiRviva – kargi pedagogi rom myavda TeologiaSi, zviad gamsaxurdia. adamians rom eubnebi, ara kac hkla, ese igi, Sen uSveb, rom SeiZleba kacis mokvla, Sen ki uSli. bavSvma xom ar icis. . . cda Cavatare aseTi: Cems umcros Svils, erTi wlis rom iyo, sadilobisas, meore TefSic davude gverdiT da vuTxari, ani, amas xeli ar hkra, ar gadaagdo-meTqi. Semxeda da gaagrZela Wama. meored mivedi – mama, ar gadaagdo es. mesamed Tqma ver movaswari, hkra xeli da gadaagdo. saerTod, ar uyurebda manamde, ase rom, es moses Camotanili mcnebebia da ara iesosi. ieso imitom movida, rom es ganemarta. ara kac vkla da morCa? gulis tkenac imas niSnavs, rom mokali. bevri codvaa kaciskvlis tolfasi.
– rogorc msaxiobma, riT SegiZlia iamayo da ris gamo grCeba sinanulis grZnoba?
– sinanulis grZnoba mrCeba, rom baTumis TeatrSi unda meTamaSa TaraS emxvari da veRar moxerxda. cudia, rom dRes arcerT TeatrSi ar Cans Cveni damokidebuleba afxazi Zmisadmi, arsad `mTvaris motaceba~ ar idgmeba. msaxiobma riTi unda iamayo? xandaxan megona, saamayos vakeTebdi da Turme dasagmobi yofila Cemi saqcieli. axla TandaTan vxvdebi (gavida 35 weli `mevludis~ gadaRebidan), rogorc oTar koberiZisTvis, romelsac 80-mde roli, maT Soris ucxoeTSi, hqonda naTamaSebi, mTavari mainc baSi-aCuki iyo, asevea CemTvis mevludis roli. radiodadgmebSi mTeli qarTuli klasika wakiTxuli maqvs xmamaRla, romlebic oqros fondSi inaxeba.
– romeli saxis Seqmnas sWirdeba mTeli cxovrebis gamocdileba?
– grigol xanZTelis, romlis saxis Seqmnazec SemiZlia sikvdilamde viocnebo. gamocdilebasTan erTad codnac sWirdeba. . . codna ici, raa? kompiuters Tu SekiTxva ar mieci, ar gipasuxebs. asevea gaCerebuli Cveni tvinic, radgan ar viciT, ra SekiTxva davusvaT. bavSvebs SekiTxvebi unda gavuCinoT, esaa namdvili swavleba, pasuxebs Tavadac miiReben.
– bevr saqmes xar SeWidebuli. . .
– male ozurgeTSi gaixsneba Teatris axali Senoba saintereso dadgmiT `monatreba~, romelic nodar dumbaZis Semoqmedebazea agebuli da masSi nodar dumbaZes vTamaSob. axla vqmniT radioTeatrs, romelsac didi xnis istoria aqvs. zura kandelakia am saqmis mamamTavari. radioTeatrSi studentobidan var, mas aqeT ramdenime aseuli roli maqvs naTamaSebi. aman, rasakvirvelia, daxvewa Cemi metyvelebis kultura, yvela mwerali Seviswavle. sityvaTa maragi damigrovda. yvela poetis da mwerlis nawarmoebs Tavisi intonacia, feri aqvs, vTqvaT, zurab gorgilaZisa da vaJa-fSavelas leqsebis intonacia xom gansxvavebulia?
– viciT, rom teleserialSi `erTxel baTumSi~ monawileob.
– minda, rom masSi warmoCndes Rirebulebebi – Tu vinme rames akeTebs, aSenebs. . . Tu afuWebs – isic. 15 seriamde gadaRebuli gvaqvs. me vTamaSob erTi samarTliani milioneri kacis rols, romelic cdilobs, yvela sfero moicvas – mSeneblobac, skolac, xelovnebac, TiTqmis me var. viReb dokumentur films `didaWara – didi wigni~. aq bevr kiTxvas gavuCen sazogadoebas. teqstic Cemia da meve vkiTxulob. . . yvela eTnoss saxeli eZleoda misi saqmianobis an sacxovrebeli adgilis mixedviT, Warni niSnavs mwignobars, xixani niSnavs drois gareT yofnas, anu dro ar aris iq, es samoTxea, ara? gavyveT toponimikas – mara niSnavs Svid dRes, Svideuls, igive samoTxea. es SemTxveviTia? didi mecnieri ambobs – toponimika miwis enaa, sadac kacobriobis istoriaa damarxulio da amas vTxri. . didaWara ras niSnavs? dida aris deda. Cveni RvTaeba gamudmebiT deda iyo, miwaze dgoma, mkvidroba. Svidi dRe rom gvaqvs kviraSi, Svidi RvTaebis saxeli erqva maT, dRes ki hqvia orSabaTi, samSabaTi. . . SabaTi arafris keTebis dRea, xuTi SabaTi gvaqvs, kidev kargad varT.
– rodis swavlob amdens?
– kiTxvebi miCndeba da pasuxebi modis.
– politikosi rom iyo, ras Secvlidi, raze imuSavebdi?
– ar var politikosi? parlamentSic viyavi da axlac vapireb, axal partiaSi Sesvlas, `fesvebi~ hqvia, amerikaSi mcxovrebi qarTveli afuZnebs. unda, Tavisi fesvebi warmoaCinos, saidanac aRmovcendiT. vaSlatamas ver vitan, an vaSli unda iyo an atami da ara vinmeze damynobili.
– raa Seni mTavari sakeTebeli saqme, msaxiobobiT rom ar Semoifarglebi, faqtia.
– Cemi sakeTebeli isaa, rom adamianebma elementaruli vicodeT, raTa SevcvaloT is warmodgenebi, rac dagvimkvidra rusul-somxurma ideologiam, vicodeT, raa saqarTvelo, ras niSnavs. rTuli ki araa – arTi niSnavs erTs, saqarTvelo aris SeerTeba. vin da vinaa SeerTebuli? aq aris mravalferovneba. samoTxec aqaa, jojoxeTic – yvelaferi. gvaqvs uTvalavi feriTao, aq yvelaferia naTqvami. qarTveli SeiZleba gaxdes sparsic, arabic, Camovides da gaqarTveldes, magram igi verasodes gaxdeba svani, megreli, aWareli, kaxeli. . . yvelam Tavisi samkvidro icodes da es codna mas RmerTTan daakavSirebs.
yvelaferi rom dagvewera, rac batonma zuram am codnasTan dakavSirebiT brZana, erTi sagazeTo gverdiT ver SemovifarglebodiT. samwuxarod, ver davsviT bevri dagegmili SekiTxvac. magaliTad, mis umSvenieres meuRle Tamar daTuaSvilTan dakavSirebiT, Tumca amis gamosworeba arc ise Znelia. igi male iqneba Cveni stumari da cxadia, mets gavigebT ulamazesi wyvilis sasiyvarulo istoriazec da maTi niWieri Svilebis Sesaxebac.
