,,დღეს ოპოზიცია სატესტო რეჟიმზეა…”
laSa xomeriki 27 48 93 –
idealuri xelisufleba ar arsebobs, miT umetes qveyanaSi, sadac mravali gamowvevaa. am mxriv saqarTvelo, samwuxarod, gamorCeulia, rasac Tavisi subieqturi da obieqturi mizezebi aqvs. amas Tan erTvis urTierTdapirispireba da SuRli politikur aqtorebs Soris, rac gansakuTrebiT gamoikveTa bolodroindel movlenebSi: mmarTvel gundsa da opoziciur flangze mimdinare procesebi mraval kiTxvas badebs. swored amis Taobaze gvesaubreba ,,lelo saqarTvelosTvis“ aWaris organizaciis erT-erTi lideri vaJa darCia, romelic manamde samoqalaqo aqtivisti iyo.
– albaT axals arafers vityvi, Tu aRvniSnav, rom qveyanaSi saintereso procesebi viTardeba, gaxariam datova Tanamdeboba, RaribaSvili meorejer daasaxeles premierad, ras fiqrobT?
– arCevnebis Semdeg qveyanaSi politikuri krizisia, masze pasuxismgebeli, ra Tqma unda, didwilad, aris xelisufleba, radgan, man ver SeZlo arCevnebis Catareba ise, rogorc es sasurveli iqneboda Cveni qveynis ganviTarebis am etapze. am fonze saintereso procesebi viTardeba mmarTvel gundSi, radgan `qarTuli ocneba~ ukve formalurad datova biZina ivaniSvilma, xolo ramdenime dRis win gaxariac gadadga, rac, ra Tqma unda, aCens legitimaciis problemas. mogvwons Tu ara, sazogadoebis nawilma swored am ori adamianis gavlenis gamo dauWira mxari `qarTul ocnebas~. dRes ki premieris Tanamdebobaze gvaqvs `meored mosvla~ – brundeba adamiani, romelic Tavis droze daiTxoves, rac aCens kiTxvebs da aaSkaravebs sakadro kriziss mmarTvel gundSi. mogexsenebaT, rom erT mdinareSi orjer ar Sedian, Tumca RaribaSvili, rogorc Cans, apirebs Sesvlas da im polarizaciis gaRrmavebas, ris gamoc, rogorc batonma gaxariam gviTxra, is gadadga. misi sixiste, morCilebis xarisxi da lavirebis unaris arqona qveyanas waiyvans policiuri saxelmwifosken da amis gamovlineba ukve vnaxeT, roca pirvelive dRes 25 aqtivisti daakaves karvis gaSlisa da pulivizatoriT asfaltze poziciis dafiqsirebisTvis.
– gaxarias Tanamdebobidan wasvla aaSkaravebs dapirispirebas mmarTvel gundSi. . .
– diax, es Tavad yofilma premiermac daadastura Tavis gamosvlaSi da amaze sazogadoebis nawili didi xania saubrobs, swored amas emsaxureboda misi wasvla. vTvli, rom am etapze `qarTuli ocnebisTvis~ gaxarias premieroba ufro xelsayreli iqneboda, Tumca is mixvda, rom gundi sxva mimarTulebiT apirebda qveynis marTvas – radikalizaciisa da polarizaciis gziT, risi gamovlinebac iyo melias saqmeze sasamarTlo gadawyvetileba. Sesabamisad, vfiqrob, rom am Sida dapirispirebis fonze ukve dgeba vadamdeli arCevnebis sakiTxic. yvela sxva faqtoris miuxedavad, es aris gza, romelic sabolood miva vadamdel arCevnebamde.
– xom ar aris mosalodneli, gaxariam axali Zala Seqmnas da mogvevlinos mesame Zalad?
– miuxedavad imisa, rom sazogadoebis nawilSi giorgi gaxaria met-naklebi avtoritetiT sargeblobs, es scenari ar mgonia axlo momavalSi ganxorcieldes, radgan misi pasuxismgebloba qveyanaSi ganviTarebul procesebze sakmaod didia. vfiqrob, rom misi wamosvla partiidan eleqtoratis Semcirebis TvalsazrisiT sakmaod didi zianis momtani iqneba saxelisuflebo gundisTvis, Tumca misi opoziciaSi wasvla am etapze ar mgonia, sazogadoebis mxridan aRqmuli iyos, rogorc mesame Zalis warmoqmnis winapiroba. wasvlis miuxedavad, is dRes mainc rCeba erT-erT mTavar pasuxismgebel pirad `qarTuli ocnebis~ politikaze. garda amisa, is dakavSirebulia procesTan, romelic SeiZleba ganvixiloT mmarTveli partiis mTavar Secdomad – vgulisxmob gavrilovis Rames.
– aSkarad vxedavT, rom politikuri procesebi CixSia, vgulisxmob verSeTanxmebas riggareSe arCevnebis CatarebasTan dakavSirebiT, am mxriv procesebis ganviTarebis rogori molodini gaqvT?
– diax, geTanxmebiT, rom politikuri procesebi CixSia Sesuli. am Cixidan gamosavalze ki Cveni gundi karga xania saubrobs. mimaCnia, rom 2022 wels unda CainiSnos vadamdeli saparlamento arCevnebi, iqamde ki sruli opozicia unda Sevides parlamentSi da saarCevno sistemisTvis miiRos is cvlilebebi, romelic am parlamentis pirobebSi SeuZlebelia. vgulisxmob proporciul saarCevno sistemas, bunebriv bariers, ceskos dakompleqtebis sakiTxs da a.S. swored amgvari ganviTareba iqneba yvelaze swori, pragmatuli da racionaluri gamosavali am politikuri krizisidan. es gza xelisuflebisTvisac saintereso unda iyos, radgan am formiT is sazogadoebas daanaxebs krizisis aRmofxvrisTvis mzaobas da ara dapirispirebis gazrdisTvis.
– eqspertTa nawili ambobs, rom ajobebs, Tuki opozicia parlamentSi Seva, 60 opozicioners sakmaod bevris gakeTeba SeuZlia Tundac mTavrobis presingis TvalsazrisiT.
– diax, sazogadoebis garkveul nawilSi es mosazreba arsebobs, Tumca aq sainteresoa, CavxedoT arCevnebis Sedegebs, sadac erTi SexedviTac Cans, rom opoziciam xelisuflebaze meti xma aiRo, Sesabamisad, parlamenti, sadac 150 deputatidan 90 `qarTuli ocnebis~ warmomadgenelia, xolo 60 – opoziciis, ukve vxedavT, rom ar asaxavs qarTveli xalxis nebas. aq ikveTeba Sereuli sistemis sisustec, – `qarTulma ocnebam~ 30 maJoritaruli olqi daitova 8 martis SeTanxmebis Semdeg, es SeTanxmebac pasuxi iyo gadagdebaze, roca jer biZina ivaniSvilma qarTvel xalxs dauanonsa srulad proporciuli arCevnebi, Semdeg ki prezidentma gaeros tribunidan siamayiT isaubra mis mniSvnelobaze saqarTvelosTvis. Tumca miviReT Cavardnili kanonproeqti da sistema, romlis meSveobiTac realurad wagebulma xelisuflebam moipova 90 mandati. Sesabamisad, vTvli, rom am etapze erTiani boikoti opoziciis mxridan aris swori strategia. am boikotis saboloo Sedegi unda uyos srulad proporciuli vadamdeli arCevnebi.
– cxadia, gverds ver auvliT melias saqmes. mmarTveli partia mas kanonis pativiscemas urCevs, ras fiqrobT?
– vTvli, rom 20 ivnisis saqmeebi mTlianad politikurad motivirebulia, radgan am aqciaze gaxldiT da zustad vici, iq ra xdeboda. aqciis mizani iyo protesti gavrilovis winaaRmdeg. qarTveli xalxisTvis miuRebeli iyo misi danaxva qveynis mTavari kanonmdeblis skamze da sruliad samarTliani protestic gamovTqviT xelisuflebis misamarTiT. Semdeg iq daiZra sakiTxebi, romlebic, Cemi azriT, emsaxureboda Temis da Secdomis gadafarvas, romelic `qarTulma ocnebam~ gavrilovis CamoyvaniT dauSva. aranairi gadatrialeba iq ar igegmeboda. es iyo gamogonili sakiTxi, risi meSveobiTac `qarTuli ocneba~ Seecada gadaefara maTi xelisuflebaSi yofnis dros daSvebuli mTavari Secdoma – gavrilovi, miT umetes, im fonze, batonma nikam pirveli sasamarTlos Semdeg girao srulad gadaixada. Sesabamisad, ra Tqma unda, es saqme Seicavs politikuri devnis niSnebs, rac ukve `qarTuli ocnebis~ trendad iqca. mogexsenebaT, rom TiTqmis yvela opozicioneri lideris mimarT saqmeebia aRZruli sxvadasxva mimarTulebiT.
– eqspertebi acxadeben, rom opoziciaSi arasaxarbielo mdgomareobaa. lideri ar hyavs, ar arsebobs samoqmedo gegmac, ra xdeba opoziciur flangze?
– Cemi azriT, dRes opozicia satesto reJimzea. es testi ver Caabara aleko elisaSvilma da iago xviCias `girCic~ mis gzas adgas. miuxedavad opoziciis ekleqtikurobisa, Cven SevZeliT da movaxerxeT gaerTianeba mTavar sakiTxSi – am qveyanaSi arCevnebi gayalbda. opoziciam Tqva uari saparlamento mandatebze da boikoti gamoucxada aralegitimur parlaments. boikoti aris miznis misaRwevi erTgvari instrumenti, mizanze araerTxel visaubreT – es aris vadamdeli saparlamento arCevnebi, romelic Catardeba yvelasTvis Tanabar pirobebSi. opoziciam airCia es gza da dRes vinc am boikots uRalatebs, mas sazogadoeba Tavis saxels daarqmevs. Ralatis magaliTebic vnaxeT, rogorc aWaris warmomadgenlobiT organoSi, ise saqarTvelos parlamentSi. Sereuli opozicioneri deputatebis mxridan erTiani boikoti am etapze aris ualternativo instrumenti.
– amboben, rom opozicia saakaSvilis TamaSs TamaSobs. . .
– es, ra Tqma unda, araseriozuli naTqvamia. `lelo~ daukavSirda Tavis mxardamWerebs da hkiTxa, emxrobian Tu ara isini boikots, daaxloebiT 70%-ma mogviwona, Sesabamisad, es aris amomrCevlis dakveTa, radgan Cvenma amomrCevlebma xma misces legitimur parlaments da ara organos, romelsac qmediTunarianoba srulad aqvs dakarguli. am saxis kritika, ra Tqma unda, araseriozulia, miT umetes adamianisgan, romelic biZina ivaniSvils sajarod madlobebs uxdis imis gamo, rom Turme marto man gaiazra am qveyanaSi proporciuli ubariero sistemis aucilebloba.
– opoziciam daaanonsa mitingebi, SeZlebs igi mosaxleobis gamoyvanas?
– diax, saprotesto muxti, mosaxleobaSi ra Tqma unda, arsebobs. amaSi opozicias xelisuflebac exmareba, risi dasturicaa melias saqme. vnaxeT, rom swored opoziciis erTianobis gamo ver moxerxda, jer kidev, sasamarTlo gadawyvetilebis aRsruleba. diax, saerTo opoziciuri fronti SeZlebs, rom sakmaod masStaburi saprotesto kerebi Seqmnas, radgan politikur krizisTan erTad, qveyanaSi aris ekonomikuri krizisic, uamravi adamiani pandemiis gamo umuSevari darCa, dakarga mSobeli, Svili, ojaxis wevri. swored amitom, adamianebs aqvT kiTxvebi mmarTvel gundTan da es kiTxvebi yovel dRe izrdeba, pasuxebi ki ar Cans. Sabolood, xalxi miva protestis im formamde, rasac quCaSi gamosvla hqvia.
– gubaz sanikiZe, valeri gelbaxiani acxadeben, rom opoziciam paraleluri parlamenti unda Seqmnas. emxrobiT Tu ara?
– am qveyanaSi arsebobs sakanonmdeblo organi, romelic dRes aralegitimuria, radgan ar asaxavs xalxis xmas. opoziciam yvelaferi unda gaakeTos, rom sazogadoebam miiRos warmomadgenlobiTi organo, romelic maqsimalurad asaxavs moqalaqeebis nebas. aranairi alternatiuli parlamentis Seqmna Cveni mxridan mxardaWerili ar iqneba.
– am wlis mTavari movlena TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebia, Tu kompromisi ar Sedga, ras gegmavs opozicia am mimarTulebiT?
– diax, es sakmaod saintereso sakiTxia mocemul viTarebaSi. mimaCnia, rom kompromisi aucileblad Sedgeba, miT umetes, rom bolo procesebma es kompromisi ukve xelisuflebisTvisac saintereso gaxada. vgulisxmob ivaniSvilisa da gaxarias wasvlas. Tu Teoriulad davuSvebT imas, rom kompromisi ver Sedgeba, ganixileba TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebis boikotis sakiTxic, rac swori gza iqneba, radgan es arCevnebi, romelsac sruliad igive cesko atarebs, iqneba iseTive aralegitimuri, rogoric iyo saparlamento arCevnebi, Tumca kidev erTxel vimeoreb, rom arsebobs kompromisis molodini. Sesabamisad, imeds vitovebT, rom TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebi Catardeba.
– eqspertebi amboben, rom Tu opozicia mZlavr prodasavlur bloks ar Seqmnis, gauWirdeba xelisuflebaSi mosvla.
– dRevandeli politikis mTavari problema aris polarizacia. swored am pirobebSi unda gaCndes mesame politikuri centri da es mimaCnia `lelos~ mTavar amocanad, am gundSi aris rogorc adamianuri, ise inteleqtualuri resursi imisa, rom SeZlos da daikavos mesame politikuri centris niSa, romelzec dRes amxela moTxovnilebaa qarTul politikur velze.
– dasavleli eqspertebi acxadeben, rom Tu xelisufleba da opozicia ver SeTanxmdeba, SeiZleba CvenTvis daixuros natos fanjara. am procesSi pasuxismgeblobas Tu grZnobs opozicia?
– opozicia yvelafers akeTebs, rom es SeTanxmeba Sedges da masSi maqsimalurad CarTulni iyvnen Cveni saerTaSoriso partniorebi. nebismieri saxis SeTanxmeba ver warmogvidgenia maT gareSe, regionSi arsebuli geopolitikuri procesebi aris imis dasturi, rom saqarTvelo aucileblad unda gaxdes evrokavSirisa da natos wevri. rogorc vici, saqarTvelo apirebs 2024 wels Seitanos ganacxadi evrokavSiris wevrobaze, xelisuflebam da opoziciam erTad unda gaakeTon yvelaferi, rom am process xeli ar SeeSalos da saqarTvelo aucileblad gaxdes evropuli ojaxis sruluflebiani wevri. sruli pasuxismgeblobiT vacxadeb, rom `lelo~ iqneba am procesis avangardSi da imeds vitovebT, rom xelisuflebac gamoiCens pasuxismgeblobas da sagareo politikis dasavluri veqtori ar idgeba kiTxvis niSnis qveS, rac, samwuxarod, bolo periodSi ikveTeba.
