,,თუ ელისაშვილს გულისხმობთ, თავიდანვე ჩანდა, ,,ოცნების” სატელიტი რომ იყო”

irma cecxlaZe 27 48 93 –

`nacionaluri moZraobis~ lideri zaal udumaSvili acxadebs, rom saqarTvelos premier-ministri irakli RaribaSvili da saxelmwifo dacvis samsaxuris ufrosi anzor CubiniZe Tanamdebobidan unda gadadgnen. amis mizezad udumaSvili ` tv pirvelis~ gavrcelebul Canawerebs asaxelebs da aRniSnavs, rom saubari danaSaulis niSnebs Seicavs: `qarTul ocnebaSic~ aravis uaruyvia am Canaweris avTenturoba. isini saubroben TariRebze. ra mniSvneloba aqvs TariRs~, – aRniSna udumaSvilma.

SegaxsenebT, rom ` tv pirvelma~ 6 marts gaavrcela faruli satelefono Canaweri, sadac, Jurnalistis mtkicebiT, bera ivaniSvili, `qarTuli ocnebis~ yofili Tavmjdomare biZina ivaniSvilis vaJi da premier-ministri irakli RaribaSvili socialur qselSi dawerili komentaris gamo skolis moswavlis mimarT ganxorcielebul Zaladobis faqts ganixilaven. siuJetis avtoris informaciiT, satelefono saubarSi monawileobs saxelmwifo dacvis specialuri samsaxuris ufrosi anzor CubiniZec, romelTanac, Canaweris Tanaxmad, bera ivaniSvili da irakli RaribaSvili cal-calke msjeloben angariSsworebis gegmaze.

kerZod, bera irakli RaribaSvils eubneba, rom anzor CubiniZis sadamsjelo razmma arasrulwlovani SeaSina da ojaxis da mezoblebis TandaswrebiT, damamcirebel garemoSi, bodiSis moxda aiZula: `skolaSi Cafsmuli miva dRes~, – ambobs, savaraudod, bera ivaniSvili. mas, savaraudod, irakli RaribaSvili pasuxobs: `ver wavidoda skolaSi, to~.

Canaweris mixedviT, savaraudod, bera ivaniSvili RaribaSvils eubneba, rom angariSsworebis Sesaxeb biZina ivaniSvilma yvelaferi icis. siuJetis avtoris TqmiT, anonimurma wyarom maT 4 Canaweri miawoda. JurnalistebisTvis ucnobia, rodisaa gakeTebuli audioCanaweri, Tumca ramdenime faqtis dakavSirebiT varaudoben, rom saubari 2016 wels Caiweres.

`qarTuli ocnebis~ liderma mamuka mdinaraZem am CanawerTan dakavSirebiT Tqva, rom saubaria 2010 wlis audioCanawerebze. Tumca misi eTerSi gasvlidan ramdenime saaTSi `mTavarma arxma~ dakvirvebis Sedegad ganacxada, rom irakli RaribaSvilsa da bera ivaniSvils Soris saubari moqmedi xelisuflebis dros Caiweres, radgan sityvebi `trii~, romelsac ivaniSvili axsenebs, misive simReridanaa, romelic 2017 wels gaxda sajaro.

am da sxva sakiTxebze saubrobs gazeT „aWarasTan“ „erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis“ wevri, aWaris umaRlesi sabWos yofili deputati elguja bagrationi.

– batono elguja, ras gvetyviT audioCanaweris Sesaxeb, romelmac aalaparaka qarTuli presa?

– ra unda vTqva, yvelaferi naTelia. gasagebia isic, rom aseT xalxTan SeuZlebelia molaparakeba da vadamdeli arCevnebis daniSvnis miRweva. isini ruseTis generlebis davalebebs asruleben da saqarTvelos ufskrulisken miaqaneben. amitom vcdilobT sakuTari politikis gatarebas da mosaxleobamde Cveni ideebis mitanas, ramac unda gamoaRviZos qarTveli eri.

– Tavad xelisufleba sul sxvagvar realobas warmogvidgens.

– aba, ras gvetyvis, marTalni arian eseni da daujereTo? cxadia, Tavis sasikeTod warmarTaven situaciasac da movlenebsac, magram rac xdeba Cvens irgvliv, yvela kargad xedavs ukve da isic gamoCnda, rom ase cxovreba aRar SeiZleba.

– isev saubroben evrosabWos prezidentis eqvspunqtian davalebaze. rogor fiqrobT, ramdenad gaiTvaliswinebs pozicia da opozicia iq gaweril valdebulebebs?

– ukve ra xania vcdilobT amis miRwevas, Tumca, amaod. davinaxeT, batoni Sarl miSelis aq yofnisas, rogor eTanxmeboda yovel mis sityvas RaribaSvili, Tavs uqnevda da ambobda, mzad var molaparakebebisTviso, magram rogorc ki igi gaemgzavra, meore dResve vnaxeT, rac gaakeTa.

– xom apirebs RaribaSvili molaparakebaze wasvlas?

– axlaxan gasajaroebuli Canawerebis Semdeg aRar arsebobs imis molodini, rom an RaribaSvili an „qarTuli ocneba“ wamova molaparakebaze da rames daTmoben sazogadoebis da qarTveli xalxis sakeTildReod. cxadia, Tavs mogvaCveneben, rom mzad arian dialogisTvis, magram es iqneba mxolod yalbi saubrebi, romlebic arc erT mxares arafers moutans. cxadia, Seecdebian molaparakebis CaSlas, jer kidev Sexvedramde. ratomRac, piradad me, ase var darwmunebuli. SesaZloa, imdenjer SeveCexe erTsa da imave situacias, rom qvecnobierad maqvs gamzadebuli pasuxi yvela maT morig intrigaze.

– xelisufleba Tvlis, rom araferi aqvs dasaTmobi. . .

– ki, ase Tvlian imis miuxedavad, rom xelisuflebis SenarCunebis aranairi resursi aRar SerCaT. amieridan, mxolod Zaladobrivad Tu SeZleben qveynis mmarTvelobis sadaveebTan yofnas, Tumca aqac aRar uweriaT didi dro. rusuli meTodebiT xelisuflebis SenarCuneba Zalian gauWirdebaT, arc erT xelisufals es ar gamouvida da ra Tqma unda, arc „qarTul ocnebas“ gamouva.

– prorusul ganwyobas „ocneba“ Tqven gabralebT, Tqven – „ocnebas“. . .

– Cven vambobT imas, rac aris da amis damadasturebeli dokumentaciac arsebobs. rogor fiqrobT, is Canawerebi, ase rom aaRelva mTeli saqarTvelo, saidan movida? isev da isev maTi struqturebidan. gamodis, sakuTari xalxi gadaudga da aRar sjera maTi. sxvanairad rom iyos, ratom gaasajaroebdnen aseT makomprometirebel masalas? am sistemis rRveva dawyebulia da uaxloes periodSi dasruldeba amaTi zRaparic da ocnebac. ra unda eweros, mTeli msoflios mowinave sazogadoeba mouwodebs, erTpartiuli parlamentis mqone, ganviTarebis gzaze mdgom patara saqarTvelos „saocnebo“ mTavrobas, rom ocnebas Tavi daanebos, realobas daubrundes da seriozuli mizniT miujdes molaparakebis magidas da opoziciur speqtrs SesTavazos misaRebi winadadebebi.

– amis gakeTebas xelisufleba ar apirebs, xolo vadamdeli arCevnebis Tema, saerTod, wiTel xazad aqvs moxseniebuli.

– Tuki ar gaakeTeben, amas mohyveba sanqciebi, ufro meti kritika, revoluciebi da gacilebiT swrafad CamoiSleba iseTi uniaTo da ugergilo Zala, rogoric „qarTuli ocnebaa“.

– imedi gaqvT, rom vadamdel arCevnebs sakuTari nebiT daniSnaven?

– ra Tqma unda, bolomde gawelaven dros da yovelmxriv Seecdebian, gadaswion vada, riTac sakuTar mmarTvelobas gaixangrZliveben, magram esec dasruldeba adre Tu gvian, me vfiqrob – adre. maT kargad dainaxes 31 oqtombers, rom pirwmindad waages arCevnebi. qarTvelebma opoziciur partiebs misces xma, rasac Tavad maTive biuletenebi da gamoqveynebuli Sedegebi adasturebs, rom araferi vTqvaT mitacebul xmebze. Tanac, maSin jer kidev iyo xalxi, romelic mxars uWerda ivaniSvils Tu gaxarias. axla arc eseni SerCaT xelisuflebaSi, maTgan yvelaze popularulma liderebmac ki miatoves da visi imedi aqvT, simarTle giTxraT, mec ar vici. albaT, dinebas mihyvebian alalbedze, sadRac usafrTxod rom gairiyon.

– Tqven ise warmogvidgenT situacias, TiTqos „qarTuli ocneba“ ukve gamoemSvidoba xelisuflebas. arada, darwmunebulia, rom Zalian male Sevlen parlamentSi patar-patara opoziciuri partiebis warmomadgenlebi, miTumetes, rom procesi ukve daiwyo.

– gaerTianebuli opozicia dResac erTiania. Tu elisaSvils gulisxmobT, Tavidanve Canda, rom „ocnebis“ sateliti iyo. sxva arc erTi opoziciuri partia ar Sesula parlamentSi da arc Seva. Cven myarad vdgavarT im gadawyvetilebaze, rac miviReT 2020 wlis 31 oqtombris arCevnebis gayalbebis gamo. aranairi safrTxe am erTobas ar emuqreba, piriqiT, kidev ufro  vZlierdebiT da vizrdebiT. es kargad ician Cvenma oponentebma, amitomac ar modian realur molaparakebebsa da SeTanxmebebze.

– 16 martamde aqciebi SewyviteT?

– ara, ubralod aqciebma da piketirebam forma Seicvala. ufro SevarbileT, Tumca 24-saaTiani aqciebi ar Segviwyvetia, isev grZeldeba da gagrZeldeba manam, sanam ar aRvadgenT samarTlianobas da ar gavamarTlebT qarTveli xalxis ndobas.

– rac Seexeba melias dapatimrebas?

– melia gavrilovis piradi patimaria. swored misi davalebiT daiWira „qarTulma“ Tu „rusulma ocnebam“, Tumca, darwmunebuli var, Zalian male gaaTavisufleben da am molaparakebebSic wamyvan adgils daiWers. ver gauZlebs „qarTuli ocneba“ zewolas. ukve hyavs erTi politikuri patimari giorgi ruruas saxiT, mas daemata nikanor melia. . .

– melias aravin Tvlis politikur patimrad.

– ase rom ar iyos, maSinve daiWerdnen, samajuri rom moiZro da arc gaxaria wavidoda am sababiT. cxadia, gaaTavisufleben, Tanac swrafad unda miiRon es gadawyvetileba, radgan ufro rTuldeba situacia, iZabeba rogorc politikuri, ise ekonomikuri krizisi, qveyana efloba procentiani sagareo valebis WaobSi, rac sabolood daRupavs yvelafers, rac aqamde SevqmeniT.

– ras elodebiT 16 martis molaparakebebisgan?

– didad, arafers. aravis gvaqvs saboloo SeTanxmebis iluzia, romelic vadamdel arCevnebs da politikuri figurebis patimrobisgan gaTavisuflebas moitans, magram merwmuneT, esec Zalian male moxdeba da gadawydeba, sxva gza ar arsebobs.

– amiT revoluciaze migvaniSnebT?

– „qarTuli ocneba“ revolucias xatavs iaraRis muqariT, agresiuli protestiT, araferi msgavsi ar moxdeba, mSvidobianad dasruldeba yvelaferi, radgan kanonis CarCoebidan gamosvlas aravin apirebs. xelisuflebas, Tavad qarTveli xalxi da ekonomikuri krizisi aiZulebs, daTmos mmarTveloba.

– ratom xarT darwmunebuli, rom mosaxleobis is nawili, romelic indiferentulia arCevnebis mimarT da mxolod ukidures SemTxvevaSi midis saarCevno yuTTan, swored Tqven mogcemT xmas da ara „qarTul ocnebas“?

– imitom, rom ukve daafiqsira xalxma Tavisi ganwyoba am arCevnebze. axla ki ufro gamwarda yvela, rom dainaxa, rogor mopares xmebi da arafrad Caagdes amomrCevlis neba. ukve davinaxeT, rom eleqtoratma xma misca opozicias. Tanac, es iyo SarSan, wels ki ufro gauWirda Cvens moqalaqeebs, gamZafrebulia viTareba, inflacia, SimSili, umuSevroba da umweoTa fenis katastrofuli zrda migvaniSnebs, rom aRaravis surs igive viTarebaSi cxovreba, yvelanairad ecdeba Secvalos mTavroba da amiT Secvalos situacia ukeTesobisken. Tundac vaqcinaciis irgvliv ganviTarebuli procesebi gavixsenoT. ukve maimunebsac gaukeTes acrebi, Cvenamde ki ver moaRwia vaqcinam. sityviT gamodian da xan vis abraleben da xan – vis. ratomRac arasodesaa maTi brali araferi. arada, vis unda movTxovoT pasuxi, Tu ara xelisuflebas? amaSic Cans, rom am adamianebs qveynis marTvis arc unari gaaCniaT da arc SesaZlebloba. amitom, rac SeiZleba swrafad unda Seicvalos xelisufleba, rom qveyana gamovides am gaWirvebidan. dRiTi dRe uaresdeba situacia. ager, Tqven, Tundac erTi ram damisaxeleT, romel aspeqtSic ukeTesobisken wavida qveyana?

– SemiZlia giTxraT, rom am intervius, Tqveni mmarTvelobis periodSi aravin gamomiqveynebda, Zalian didi riskis qveS davayenebdi redaqciasac da sakuTar Tavsac. axla cenzura ar arsebobs.

– Cvenc gvqonda Secdomebi, romelic vaRiareT, gavaanalizeT da aRarasodes gavimeorebT. sxva mxriv, SemiZlia vTqva, rom saqarTvelo Cixidan gamoviyvaneT, saxelmwifo struqturebi avamuSaveT, yoveldRiurad win mivdiodiT da ara – ukan. awyobili qveyana davutoveT „ocnebas“, romelmac yvela instituti CamoSala, qveyana isev CixSi Seiyvana da dRes savalalo mdgomareobaSia. ra Tqma unda, Cveni xelisuflebac unda Secvliliyo, esec unda Seicvalos, momavali mmarTveli Zalac unda Caanacvlos ufro progresulma, anu win unda viaroT da ara – ukan. yvela Semdegi xelisufleba unda iyos winaze ukeTesi, sxva mxriv, saqarTvelo amoiSleba msoflio rukidan. Cven gaazrebuli gvaqvs yvela Secdoma, viciT, ra rogor unda gavakeToT samomavlod ise, rom mosaxleobis ndobac aRvidginoT da saxelmwifoc progresis gzaze gaviyvanoT.