,,დემოკრატია იცავს თითოეულ ადამიანს”
èïîòïè õòàïîòøâòäò 27 48 93 –
5 ivliss arasamTavrobo organizacia `Tbilisi praids~ dedaqalaqSi `Rirsebis marSi~ unda gaemarTa. maTi mzadebis paralelurad, sapatriarqom mxardamWerebis mobilizeba gamoacxada da kontraqcia daaanonsa. xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebis umravlesoba acxadebda, rom maTTvis marSis Catareba miuRebelia, evroparlamentarebi da diplomatebi ki mouwodebdnen mTavrobas, daecva lgbt Temis gamoxatvis Tavisufleba
marSi saRamos 6 saaTze unda dawyebuliyo, Tumca samoqalaqo aqtivistebis da diplomatiuri korpusis molodini ar gamarTlda – am dRes sakuTari poziciis sajarod gamoxatva mxolod Zaladobrivma jgufebma SeZles.
`Rirsebis marSis~ mowinaaRmdegeTa samizne gansakuTrebiT Jurnalistebi da operatorebi aRmoCndnen, romelTac qvebs, xelketebsa da muStebs uSendnen maSin, rodesac isini profesiul movaleobas asrulebdnen. patrulis TanamSromlebma, romlebic uyurebdnen, rogor asisxlianebdnen Jurnalistebs, araferi an veraferi iRones brbos SesaCereblad. daSavda masmediis 53 warmomadgeneli, maTgan ramdenime jer kidev klinikaSia moTavsebuli, zogierTs gadaudebeli operaciac ki dasWirda, magaliTad, `palitraniusis~ operator roma taruRiSvils.
gTavazobT intervius baTumis SoTa rusTavelis saxelmwifo universitetis asocirebul profesorTan, filosofos giorgi masalkinTan.
– sanam mimdinare movlenebze gadavalT, iqneb lgbt-is istoria mimovixiloT.
– Zveli istoriaa. . . Zveli samyaro rogorc dasavleTSi, ise aRmosavleTSi, praqtikulad, biseqsualuri kulturis matarebeli iyo. aratradiciuli seqsualuri urTierTobebi normad arasdros iTvleboda, magram iyo sakmaod farTod gavrcelebuli da misdami damokidebuleba – sakmaod Semwynarebluri. situacia Seicvala monoTeisturi religiebis gabatonebis Semdeg – iudaizmi, qristianoba, islami. CemTvis arsebobs gansxvaveba rwmenas, religias, eklesiasa da qristianobas Soris, magram aq vilaparakeb mxolod religiaze. qristianuli da islamuri religiebisTvis aratradiciuli seqsualuri orientacia aris codva. misi propaganda, legitimacia – calke codva, romelsac unda SeebrZolo. meTodi bevria. . . am meTodebze mogvianebiT.
– ratomaa saqarTvelos da, saerTod, kacobriobis didi nawili maTi winaaRmdegi?
– saukuneebis ganmavlobaSi adamiani cxovrobda kulturaSi, sadac aratradiciuli seqsualuri orientacia iTvleboda codvad. es evropuli uaxloesi warsulis nawilicaa. germaniaSi 1994 wlamde sisxlis samarTlis kodeqsSi arsebobda paragrafi 175, romelic iTvaliswinebda sasjelebs mamakacTa Soris seqsualuri xasiaTis qmedebebisTvis. pirveli geiaRlumebi 40-30-20 wlis win Catarda. bevr qveyanaSi Catarebula da tardeba kontraqciebi da damokidebuleba msgavsi RonisZiebebis mimarT araerTgvarovania.
– TqvenTvis ras niSnavs aseTi adamianebis xelSewyoba da TanagrZnoba?
– CemTvis es niSnavs imas, rom ar unda Seilaxos maTi moqalaqeobrivi uflebebi.
– ratom ayenebs evropa am sakiTxs ase mkacrad?
– es Tanamedrove politikuri kulturis nawilia. evropa aris demokratiis forposti da Tan ganicdis garkveul kompleqsebs Tavisi uaxlesi aratolerantuli warsulis mimarT.
– Tuki lgbt pirebi Tavisufali iqnebian arCevanSi da am niSniT ar daateroreben, ras moigebs patara qveyana?
– Tu dRes dairRva erTi umciresobis uflebebi, xval aucileblad dairRveva sxva umciresobis da, zogadad, mdgomareoba adamianis uflebebis dacvis kuTxiT gauaresdeba. demokratia ar icavs umravlesobas, is umravlesobis nebas atarebs politikur gadawyvetilebebSi. demokratia arc umciresobebs unda icavdes – igi SeiZleba iseTive borotebis matarebeli aRmoCndes, rogoric umravlesoba. demokratia icavs TiToeul adamians, miuxedavad imisa, Tu sad imyofeba is amJamad sxvadasxva sakiTxTan mimarTebaSi – umravlesobaSi, umciresobaSi Tu simartoveSi.
– eklesiisgan modioda es radikalizmi Tu rogorc premieri acxadebs – radikaluri opoziciisgan?
– radikalizebulia, zogadad, sazogadoeba, eklesiac da politikuri banakebic, samoqalaqo sazogadoebac da arasamTavroboebic. ramdenad Tavsebadia radikalizmi da goniereba? vfiqrob, arc ise. . .
– ras fiqrobT Jurnalistebze – ideis dacvisTvis daSavdnen Tu, ubralod, sensaciis gamodevnebisTvis?
– pirveli da mTavari – presis warmomadgenlebze yvela Tavdamsxmeli (SeZlebisdagvarad, uklebliv) unda daisajos. media CvenTan, praqtikulad, politikur aqtorad gvevlineba xelisuflebasTan, opoziciasa da eklesiasTan erTad. mas misi wili pasuxismgebloba akisria radikaluri da agresiuli ganwyobebis CamoyalibebaSi. SeiZleba SemekamaTon, magram ideis dacva ki ara, zogadad, informaciis gavrcelebaa masmediis saqme, rac, bunebrivia, ar gamoricxavs arc politikur preferenciebs Jurnalistebs Soris da arc ideis matarebel da ideisTvis mebrZol Jurnalistebs.
– lgbt pirebis gareSe demokratia srulfasovani ver iqneba saqarTveloSi?
– adamianis uflebebis dacvis da Zaladobis winaaRmdeg brZolis gareSe demokratia srulfasovani namdvilad ver iqneba. yvelam unda davsvaT da civi gonebiT SevecadoT vupasuxoT Semdeg kiTxvebs, romlebzec piradad me ar maqvs mkafio pasuxebi: gaxda Tu ara am movlenebis Semdeg Cveni sazogadoeba ufro Semwynarebeli? Semcirda Tu ara sazogadoebaSi dapirispireba garkveuli sakiTxebis mimarT? Sesustda Tu gaZlierda `kontraqciis~ momxreTa poziciebi? am movlenebis Semdeg garkveuli umciresobebis uflebebi Cvens qveyanaSi ufro daculi iqneba Tu ara rogorc saxelmwifoebriv, aseve yofiT doneze? am SekiTxvebs sazogadoebam unda gasces pasuxebi, Tu surs SenarCundes momavlis mqone sazogadoebad. da mTavari: saqarTvelo sekularuli saxelmwifoa. masSi moqmedebs konstitucia da am konstituciiT daculia gamoxatvis, Sekrebisa da manifestaciis Tavisufleba. Zaladobis ganxorcielebis ufleba aqvs mxolod saxelmwifos da aravis sxvas. sekularul saxelmwifoebSi ar aris institucionalizebuli codva, rogorc fenomeni, arc konstituciaSi, arc, vTqvaT, adamianis uflebaTa deklaraciaSi. . . da verc iqneba. es adamianis piradi, intimuri sferoa da mas ar aqvs kavSiri samarTalTan. swored es SeuZlebloba badebs am mkveTr dapirispirebas – erTi mxriv, sekularuli faseulobebi da politikuri reJimi, meore mxriv – religiuri grZnobebi da emociebi. es ar aris mxolod qarTuli movlena. ram gamoiwvia `Sarli ebdos~ tragedia safrangeTSi? dasavlur sekularul TamaSis wesebSi sityvis Tavisufleba aris erT-erTi `wminda Zroxa~. amave dasavleTis nawilia aradasavluri faseulobebis matarebeli moqalaqeebi, romlebisTvis `wminda Zroxa~ religiuri Rirsebaa. swored amaze dgas maTi identoba. sazogadoebis am segmentis nawili ar aris sekularuli konstituciuri TamaSis wesebis matarebeli. Temas rom davubrundeT, religia aswavlis, rom `geoba~ codvaa. saxelmwifo mas codvad ar ganixilavs. dasavleTSi sazogadoebis didi nawilisTvis religia, igive islami da marTlmadidebloba, identobis makonstituirebelia. Cvens qveyanaSi amas emateba is faqtori, rom eklesia ndobis yvelaze maRali reitingis matarebelia. rogor moiqces `ubralo~ religiuri obivateli? vis daujeros? (Tan es yvelaferi xdeba dRevandel samyaroSi TiTqmis yvela religiaSi fundamentalizmis tendenciebis gaZlierebis, axali identobis Ziebis da Tanamedrove nacionalizmis ganviTarebis procesis kvaldakval). dasavlur samyaroSi jer kidev gabatonebuli sekularuli liberaluri koncepti ukve TavdacvisTvis emzadeba. am pirobebSi, ara mgonia, rom religiuri codvis fenomenis asaxva sekularuli faseulobebis sistemaSi da maTi harmoniuli Tanaarseboba advilad gadasawyveti sakiTxi iyos. me SevewinaaRmdegebi `Sarli ebdos~ magvari Jurnalis gamoSvebas saqarTveloSi, sadac, magaliTad, SeuZliaT ixumron da `iSayiron~ napirze gamoriyuli, daRupuli oTxi wlis sirieli ltolvili bavSvis fotoze. am SemTxvevaSi CavTvli, rom sityvis Tavisufleba ar aris absoluturi norma. geiaRlumi religiuri adamianisTvis niSnavs, rom `maT~ surT es `codva~ CaiTvalos normalur, misaReb qcevad. CemTvis, rogorc loialuri moqalaqisTvis, gasagebia, rom qveynis kanonebi aZlevs mas amis uflebas, magram CemTvis, rogorc sxva – metafizikuri samefos `moqalaqisTvis~, es codvis gadidebis tolfasi qmedebaa. unda SevTanxmdeT, rom adamianebis didi raodenoba dgas am metad rTuli dilemis winaSe – romeli samefo aris misTvis ufro Rirebuli da ufro efeqtianad gansazRvravs mis arCevans? keisris Tu RvTis? ukve gaisma moTxovna religiuri Rirsebis Selaxvis Sesaxeb Sesabamisi samarTlebrivi normebis SemoRebisken. Tu Cven daviwyeT codvis gansazRvra da TiToeuli codvisTvis samarTlebrivi statusis miniWeba, maSin mivalT SariaTis msgavs fenomenTan, religiur sasamarTlosTan da zneobis policiasTan. aseTi qveynebi arsebobs. . . gamosavali: Ria, civi gonebiT msjeloba yvela sakiTxze, ganaTleba da, rac mTavaria, qristianuli damokidebuleba yvela sakiTxisa da problemis mimarT, maT Soris imis mimarT, rasac Sen codvad aRiqvam. es grZelvadiani perspeqtivaa, koncentrireba ganaTlebaze. adamianebma, ubralod, ar ician, ra aris qristianoba, riTi gansxvavdeba Zveli da axali aRTqma, anu Zveli da axali xelSekruleba (konvencia) RmerTsa da adamianebs Soris. ar ician demokratiis arsi, misi anbani. amas emateba mZime socialur-ekonomikuri foni, partiebisa da eklesiis politikuri interesebi. zizRi da miuRebloba `CamorCenili, bneli masis~ mimarT, maTi marTvad brbod gasaReba ar aris produqtiuli damokidebuleba. es masa sazogadoebis umravlesobaa Zalian bevr qveyanaSi da mas mis enaze unda elaparako. sxva SemTxvevaSi, masasTan brZola mxolod aZlierebs mas, Sen ki, ukeTes SemTxvevaSi, avtoritarad gadagaqcevs. mimovixedoT irgvliv, Tu ar gvinda, Tavi movityuoT da gamogonil saqarTveloSi vicxovroT, es is masaa, romelSic varsebobT, romelic gvxvdeba yvelgan. mas ar hyavs mravlad spikerebi, amitom ver qmnis oficialur gabatonebul narativs, magram es is masaa, romelic cxovrobs am oficialuri narativis paralelurad. spikeric gamouCdeba SigadaSig, magaliTad, levan vasaZe, an le-penis dinastia – safrangeTSi. Tu me winaaRmdegi var saqarTveloSi erTnairsqesianTa qorwinebis dakanonebis, am masis wevrad unda CaviTvalo (Cemi azriT, erTnairsqesian wyvils unda hqondes Tavisi urTierTobebis oficialurad registrirebis ufleba da maTi arcerTi samoqalaqo ufleba ar unda irRveodes, garda erTisa – bavSvis ayvanis uflebisa)? nu dagvaviwydeba, rom gasuli saukunis 50-ian wlebSi amerikaSi roza parksi daapatimres imisaTvis, rom man ar dauTmo adgili avtobusSi TeTrkanian mamakacs. amis Semdeg segregaciuli kanonebi amerikaSi kidev wlebi arsebobda. Cven mxolod 30 wlis win daviwyeT dabruneba istoriaSi subieqtad da es urTulesi gza jer ar damTavrebula. rac Seexeba sakiTxis moklevadian Sefasebas, unda moxdes Zaladobaze saTanado reagireba saxelmwifos mxridan. sazogadoebis reagireba – es misi saqmea. . . Zaladoba gaumarTlebelia, maT Soris, Tundac provocirebis sapasuxod. is gadamdebia, aq bumerangis principi muSaobs. moZaladeebis waxaliseba xelisuflebas Zaladobrivi politikis da Zalebis mZevlad aqcevs, rac ukve yofila Cvens uaxles istoriaSi.
