“რუსეთისთვის სასარგებლო ნაბიჯების გადადგმას გადაეღობა მიშელი თავისი ვიზიტითაც და იმ ორი პრეზიდენტის ჩამოყვანითაც”
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Jurnalistebis darbevam uamravi kiTxva gaaCina, romelzec jerjerobiT ar Cans adekvaturi pasuxi. imdenad gadaixlarTa erTmaneTSi praidi-pozicia-opozicia-sapatriarqo, rom erTi SexedviT rTuli gasarCevia, vin vis TamaSs TamaSobs da, saerTod, ra roli akisria yvelafer amaSi lgbt Tems – am dapirispirebis Zireul mizezs. organizatoroba maSinve ruseTs dabralda, Tumca aqamde ucnobia Semsruleblis vinaoba.
am sakiTxze gTavazobT eqskluziur intervius politolog ramaz sayvareliZesTan, romelic globalurad aanalizebs saerTaSoriso interesebSi saqarTvelos adgilsa da qveyanaSi mimdinare politikur situcias.
– batono ramaz, rogor SeafasebT 5 ivlisis movlenebs, mainc ra moxda im dRes?
– vTvli, rom am dRes ufro meti kiTxvis niSani dagrovda, vidre erTi SexedviT Cans. magaliTad, ratom iyo aseTi mizanmimarTuli Seteva maincdamainc Jurnalistebze? kadrebSi kargad Cans, rom Zaladoba ar iyo gafantuli. arc erTi rigiTi moqalaqe am areulobaSi ar galaxula. Jurnalistebis garda sxvac rom dazaralebuliyo, cxadia, cudi iqneboda, magram gaugebrobas ar warmoqmnida. aq mizanSi amoRebuli iyvnen mediis warmomadgenlebi, rac damafiqrebelia. fiqris ufleba ki analitikosebs gvaqvs. Tanac maT Soris iseTebic iyvnen, romelTa mimarTac mTavrobas araviTari pretenzia da interesi ar gaaCnia. amasTan, yvelam kargad viciT, ras niSnavs Zaladoba Jurnalistze.
– opozicia acxadebs, rom mTavrobas surda Jurnalistebis daSineba da swored amitom Seasia maT zonder-brigadebi.
– es absurdia, ar arsebobs Jurnalistebis daSineba, piriqiT, gabrazdnen da Setevaze gadavidnen. ufro uxeSad rom movkidoT xeli am Temas, pirdapir SeiZleba iTqvas, rom mediaze Tavdasxmam da evrokavSiris droSis daxevam gaafuWa saqarTvelos imiji dasavleTis TvalSi, Tanac, lgbt Temis ofisze ki iyo Tavdasxma, magram arc erTi misi wevri ar dazianebula. ase rom, ZiriTadi risxva ar mimarTes praidisken, rac am msvlelobis sababi gaxda. modiT, Tavi davaneboT moZaladeTa sityvier muqaras da ganvixiloT Sedegi: gailaxa media, daixa evrokavSiris droSa. aq ukve kargad Cans, rom yvelaferi es, kargad ergeba ruseTis interesebs.
– modiT, gavarkvioT, mTavrobam Seasrula ruseTis dakveTa Tu radikalurma opoziciam, rogorc iciT, orive erTmaneTze gadabralebiT aris dakavebuli. vis ekisreba pasuxismgebloba, visi bralia?
– mTavrobis daudevrobis, rac danaSaulis tolfasia da opoziciis, romelic damnaSavea Tavisi aqtiurobiT. pirveli ar aris da albaT, arc ukanaskneli, opozicia rom imsaxurebs am epiTets. axlac ganacxades: `is, rasac Tqven akeTebT, ruseTis interesebSiao~. praqtikulad Camoyalibda azri, rom am yvelafris ukan ruseTi dgas.
– opoziciis romeli frTis warmomadgenloba asrulebs ruseTis mstovris rols?
– mstovari?! SeiZleba daufiqrebloba iyos, SesaZlebelia – mstovroba. `erTian nacionalur moZraobazea~ eWvi, isini uZRvebian am procesebs saakaSvilis xelmZRvanelobiT. swored `nacionalebi~ iZaxian, revoluciaa mosaxdenio. revolucia rom ruseTis interesebSia da ara evropis, faqtia, rac amtkicebs, rom isini arian CrdiloeTis imperiis interesebis gamtareblebi saqarTveloSi.
– ra rols akisrebT mTel am situaciaSi eklesias?
– moZaladeTa is jgufebi, romlebic 5 ivliss Jurnalistebs Tav-pirs umtvrevdnen, TavianTi teqstebiT `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ winaaRmdeg gamodian. am dros ki es jgufebi da `nacionalebi~ erTdroulad aRmoCndnen im saqmis mkeTebeli, rac xels ar aZlevs ruseTs. ismis kiTxva, maT qmedebebs xom ar hyavs saerTo diriJori? yvelam viciT, orkestri ver daukravs, diriJorma xmebi Tu ar Seuwyo erTmaneTs. aseTi kargad orkestrirebuli suraTis miReba, sruliad SemTxveviT, Zalian aradamajerebelia. arada, kargad orkestrirebuli iyo, erTi mxriv – qarTuli radikaluri opoziciis, meore mxriv – kunTmagari moZaladeebis sinqronuli moqmedeba. aqve Cans xelisuflebis pasiuroba da garkveuli tipis tendenciuroba eklesiis zogierTi warmomadgenlis mxridan, anu maTgan wamovida mowodebebi: `ariqa, SevikriboT, Tavi moviyaroT~ . . . bunebrivia, maT kargad icodnen, rom msgavsi ram, sabolood, riskis Semcveli iyo. amasTan arc is unda daviviwyoT, rom iqve eklesiis is warmomadgenlebic iyvnen, Zaladobis msxverplT sakuTari sxeuliT rom ifaravdnen. amitom veravin daabralebs zogadad eklesias agresiul ganwyobas, magram zogierTebi xels rom uwyobdnen am Zaladobis gaRvivebas, es azri, vgoneb, dasaSvebia.
– rogor unda moiqces am viTarebaSi xelisufleba?
– man unda qnas is, rac maSin unda eqna, pirvelad rom daarbies praidi. gaxsovT albaT – bolomde ar miiyvana gamoZieba. imis gagrZeleba iyo axlandeli darbevac. am etapze erTiRa darCenia mTavrobas: bolomde amowuros kiTxvebi, arc erTi ar datovos upasuxod.
– xom daiWires eWvmitanilebi?
– rogorc aRvniSne, Zalian bevri kiTxva dagrovda, Tundac, praidis mxare ratom gajiutda ase? zemoT, Cvens CamonaTvalSi rolebis ganawilebaze, erT-erTi mTavari adgili uWiravs praids. Zalian Wirveulobdnen, daiwyes arCeva, ar daTanxmdnen SeTavazebul adgils. esec saeWvod meCveneba. praidma, faqtobrivad, xeli Seuwyo Zaladobis procesis gaSlas, Semdeg ki, rodesac tragikuli movlenebi ganviTarda, saerTod gaqra. TavisTavad Cndeba azri, rom ruseTis sasargeblod warmoebul am aqtivobaSi maTac miuCines adgili.
– am movlenebis kvaldakval, Sarl miSelis vizits rogor SeafasebT, vis dauWira mxari evropuli sabWos prezidentma – xelisuflebas Tu opozicias?
– am vizitma xazi gausva im tendenciebs, romlebic mogvianebiT gaCnda. dasavleTis pirveli reaqcia am tragikul movlenebze mZafri iyo. cota xanSi ganelda, magram mxolod mas Semdeg, rac amuSavda miSelis formula, anu gaJRerda, rom is destabilizacia, rac saqarTveloSi xdeba, ruseTisgan modis. yvela mixvda, Tu dasavleTi gaamwvavebs urTierTobas saqarTvelosTan, es ruseTis wisqvilze daasxams wyals – mas swored es undoda. radgan Tavad ver Semodis jariT, saqarTvelo ki isev miiltvis evropisken, misken arc iyureba, amitom gadawyvita iseTi viTarebis Seqmna, rom Tavad dasavleTma Tqvas uari Cvenze. miSelma CaWra dasavleTis muqara sanqciebsa da jarimebze, romelic mravlad gaisma Jurnalistebis darbevis kvaldakval. ruseTisTvis sasargeblo nabijebis gadadgmas gadaeRoba miSeli Tavisi vizitiTac da im ori prezidentis CamoyvaniTac. amiT msoflios auwya, rom aq sul sxva politikis warmoebaa saWiro, rom am `trios~ evropuli qolgis qveS Seyvanaa aucilebeli da ara muStebis braxuni magidaze. Tavad Sarl miSelis intonaciac gaxldaT absoluturad mSvidobiani im winadadebebSic ki, romlebic TiTqos kritikuli toniT unda Tqmuliyo (Jurnalistebis uflebebis dacva da sxva), anu saTqmeli Tqva, Tumca iqve gausva xazi, rom es ar aris mTavari, mTavaria am sami saxelmwifos ruseTis gavlenisgan gadarCena.
– nuTu ver xvdeba yvelafer amas opozicia, romelic miSelis vizits sul sxva axsnas aZlevs?
– opoziciis inteleqtualuri SesaZleblobebi namdvilad ar aris iseTi dabali, rom gaxsnili teqsti ver gaigos. miSelma es yvelaferi gaxsnilad Tqva, qaragmiT ar miuniSnebia. xelisuflebac ver ityvis yvelafers gaxsnilad, ruseTis mstovrobas bralad ver wauyenebs, radgan maSin unda daiwyos brZola ruseTis winaaRmdeg. es wamgebiani poziciaa. gvaxsovs, warmosaxul jaSuSebs rom iWerda saakaSvili, imas mohyva saomari moqmedebebi, amitomaa SeuZlebeli xelisuflebisaTvis, opozicias wauyenos braldebad ruseTis interesebis gatareba, mosaxleobisTvis ki aseTi ganacxadi keTdeba, rom `es procesebi mesame Zalis, sxva qveynis interesebSia~ da a.S. sxvas verafers ityvis premieri, radgan pasuxs mosTxovs ruseTis oficialuri wreebi.
– xom SeiZleba es ganixilon analitikurma jgufebma?
– analitikuri jgufebi aseT sibrtyeebze naklebad gadian. qarTveli analitikosebi Caketilebi arian qarTul sivrceSi da imdenad gaxSirda politikosebis gawev-gamowevis ganxilva, gegoneba, msoflioSi sxva politikuri sivrce arc ki arsebobs. arada, uamravi politikuri xazia, romelic gadadis saqarTvelos interesebze.
– batono ramaz, Tu SeiZleba, es sakiTxi ufro detalurad ganvixiloT?
– rogor ara. erTia – ruseTi, aris islamuri sivrce, aseve Cinuri, sxvaTa Soris, Cinuri da amerikuli interesebi erTmaneTs upirispirdeba. arsebobs gafrTxilebebi, rom CineTis biznesis xazis gaxsnam SesaZloa, sirTuleebi Seuqmnas Cvens qveyanas dasavleTTan. aris kidev ufro globaluri dapirispireba `respublikelebsa~ da `demokratebs~ Soris – trampisa da baidenis dapirispireba amerikaSi, romelic mTel msoflioze axdens gavlenas momxreebis gadalageba-gadmolagebis kuTxiT. es praidis Temac baidenma wamoswia, man ganacxada, rom Tuki mxars ar davuWerT seqsualur umciresobas, es adamianTa uflebebis yvelaze did darRvevad CaiTvleba. amis Semdeg gaakeTa gancxadebebi amerikis elCma praidis dasacavad, mividnen sxva elCebic, anu isini politikuri koniunqturis mixedviT amoqmeddnen maSin, rodesac trampis periodSi aravis awuxebda seqsualur umciresobaTa problemebi. ase rom, CvenTan Zalian cota ram xdeba iseTi, romelic mxolod Sida faqtorebiT aixsneba. ZiriTadi movlenebis asamoqmedebeli meqanizmebi sul sxva qveynebSi unda veZeboT. saqarTvelo pataraa, amitom didi politikuri sivrceebis gavlenebi CvenTan yovelTvis iyo da iqneba sagrZnobi. gare politikuri qmedebebis analizi ufro gasagebs xdis, ra moxda saqarTveloSi, vidre Siga Zalebis kinklaobis aRwera.
– ramdenad darCa `qarTul ocnebas~ TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebze 43%-is aRebis Sansi da ra roli akisria amaSi gaxarias, rogorc politikur figuras?
– ivaniSvilma ucnauri nabijebi gadadga da gavida, Semdeg Tavisi interesebis amsaxveli werili gamoaqveyna, romlis gamoc gaxaria misi (ivaniSvilis) mxardamWerebis gareSe aRmoCnda. axla kiTxvebi Cndeba gaxarias irgvliv – rogor, ra ZaliT Semova da ra tipis amomrCevels gadaibirebs. mxolod TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebis Semdeg vnaxavT, ra perspeqtivebi aqvs gaxarias da miuaxlovdeba Tu ara `qarTuli ocneba~ 43-procentian zRvars, Tumca eWvi maqvs, rom es ar moxdeba, Tuki opoziciam ar uSvela.
– opoziciam ratom unda uSvelos Tavis yvelaze did metoqes, romlis xelisuflebidan Camocilebas yvela gziT cdilobs?
– imitom, rom patara partiebis interesSia `qarTuli ocnebis~ gadarCena. vadamdeli arCevnebi Tu moewyo, marto `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ aRmoCndeba parlamentSi, eseni xom sul mTlad gaqrebian.
– ramdenadaa SesaZlebeli saqarTveloSi koaliciuri mTavrobis Camoyalibeba?
– rogorc wesi, koaliciuri mTavrobis Seqmnis mizezi xdeba situacia, rodesac parlamenti ver akompleqtebs mTavrobas da amitom iqmneba partiebis koalicia, magram aqac prioriteti rCeba umravlesobis mxares. ase rom, pirveli, visac mosTxoven koaliciis Seqmnas, iqneba `qarTuli ocneba~. esec im SemTxvevaSi, Tu ar eyo xmebi premieris da ministrebis dakompleqtebisas, Tu eyo, maSin koaliciuri mTavrobis Seqmnaze laparaki zedmetia.
– Tu ar eyo xmebi . . .
– maSinac ki jer `qarTulma ocnebam~ unda Tqvas, visTan erTad apirebs koaliciis Sekvras da Semdeg eZleva sityva opozicias. 43%-ic rom ver aiRos `ocnebam~, enm-ze meti mainc eqneba. Cven vsaubrobT calkeul partiebze da ara gaerTianebul opoziciaze. vnaxoT, ra iqneba, prognozs ver vakeTeb monacemebis gareSe, es kakulias prerogativaa.
– gmadlobT, batono ramaz!