რა შემთხვევაში გადავა ,,ოცნების” მხარეს მურმან დუმბაძე?
ირმა ცეცხლაძე 27 48 93 –
`saqarTvelos mosaxleobis naxevars arcerTi partia ar moswons~ – aseTia aSS-is erovnuli demokratiuli institutis mier Catarebuli gamokiTxvis Sedegebi. gamokiTxva 3-25 ivlisis periodSi – adgilobrivi TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebamde sam Tveze nakleb droSi Catarda. sul gamoikiTxa 2 016 adamiani. kiTxvaze `romeli partia dgas Tqvens SexedulebebTan axlos~, gamokiTxulTa 51%-ma upasuxa, rom – arcerTi. 19%-ma pasuxze uari ganacxada an Tqva, rom ar icis. rac Seexeba danarCenebs, maTi simpaTia amgvarad gadanawilda: 18% – mmarTveli partia `qarTuli ocneba~, 6% – `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~, 6% – sxva partiebi. gamokiTxulTa 61% mzadaa, arCevnebSi miiRos monawileoba, 18% SeiZleba, wavides, ar apirebs arCevnebSi monawileobas 16%, pasuxi ar icis 3%-ma. NDerovnuli demokratiuli instituti-s gamokiTxva saqarTveloSi sazogadoebrivi azris meore didi kvlevaa, romelic adgilobrivi TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebis win Catarda.
am interviuTi gavigebT, ras fiqrobs aRniSnul kvlevaze, mimdinare politikur movlenebsa da TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebze mkvaxe gamoTqmebiT cnobili politikosi murman dumbaZe, romelic, ratomRac, mudmiv opoziciaSia imis miuxedavad, rom araerTxel iyo sakmaod maRal Tanamdebobaze rogorc sakanonmdeblo, ise aRmasrulebel xelisuflebaSi. am etapze batoni murmani warmoadgens `gaerTianebul opozicias – Zala erTobaSia~, sadac gaerTianda partiidan `emsaxure saqarTvelos~, romlis damfuZnebelic da Tavmjdomarec Tavadaa.
– batono murman, axla sakuTari partia gaqvT. isev gaerTianebuli opoziciidan iyriT kenWs TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebSi Tu damoukideblad?
– Cven sakuTari kandidatebi ar wargvidgenia am arCevnebSi. mxars vuWerT `gaerTianebuli opozicia – Zala erTobaSias~ mier wardgenil kandidatebs. mTeli opozicia Tanxmdeba, rom yvelgan iqneba mxolod TiTo kandidati, raTa xmebi ar daiqsaqsos, partiuli siebi ki iqneba cal-calke. rac Seexeba maJoritarul ubnebs, aqac aseTive SeTanxmeba moqmedebs. gansakuTrebiT, es iTqmis baTumsa da aWaraze, radgan aq sakmaod iolad mivaRwieT opoziciuri partiebis liderebma SeTanxmebas, vidre danarCen saqarTveloSi, radgan erTmaneTs vendobiT da uapelaciod vuWerT mxars.
– Tu SeiZleba, mimovixiloT qveyanaSi arsebuli politikuri viTareba, romelic araerTi mcdelobis miuxedavad, kvlav polarizebuli da daZabulia.
– msgavs polarizebas vercerTi xelisufleba ver ascda. ase iyo manamdec da asea axlac. mosaxleobac gaxleCilia, erTi nawili mmarTvel partias uWers mxars, sxva – opozicias, romelic, Tavis mxriv, mamravlebadaa warmodgenili qarTul politikur sivrceSi. Cveni mTavari amocanaa, es polarizeba erTxel da samudamod aRmoifxvras, radgan ase cxovrebis gagrZeleba warmoudgenelia. isedac mcire eri varT da amiT kidev ufro viqsaqsebiT da vikargebiT.
– erTpartiulobas gvTavazobT?
– ara, ras ambobT, me saqarTvelos vTavazob, rom gamarjvebuli partia yvelas xelisufali iyos da yvelas saWiroebebisa da interesebisTvis muSaobdes, rogorc sakuTari momxreebis, ise – mowinaaRmdegeebis, anu opoziciis da neitraluri moqalaqeebisaTvis. politikurma kuTvnilebam ar unda SeuSalos adamians xeli dasaqmebaSi, cxovrebaSi, karierul winsvlasa Tu sxva sakiTxebSi.
– gindaT TqvaT, rom amJamindeli xelisufleba Tavad aris polarizebuli mosaxleobisgan?
– samwuxarod, asea imis miuxedavad, rom jer kidev maTi qveynis saTaveSi mosvlidan – 2012 wlidan vcdilobdiT, mogvespo es polarizacia. vibrZodiT, rom `qarTuli ocneba~ xelisuflebasTan Sekruli da gadajaWvuli ki ar yofiliyo, aramed rigiT politikur partiad darCeniliyo sxva partiebTan erTad da ar hqonoda is prerogativebi, romlis gamoyenebiTac SeZlo ukve mesame vadaze gasvla uTanasworo saarCevno maraTonSi.
– es procesi yvela xelisuflebisTvis analogiuri iyo. ratom unda daeTmo `qarTul ocnebas~ xalxis mxardaWeriT mopovebuli marTvis sadaveebi?
– ai, xedavT, Tqvenc amas ambobT, arada, aravin ukvirdeba, rom es procesi araswori da TavSive ganwirulia. yvela partias igive Secdoma mosdioda xelisuflebaSi mosvlis dRidan. modian da mTavrobaSi rCebian, yalibdebian saxelisuflebo partiebad da aviwydebaT, rom saqarTvelos prezidenti, premieri, ministri da a.S. ara mxolod sakuTari mxardamWerebis prezidenti Tu premieria, aramed `leiboristTa~, `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ Tu `lelo – saqarTvelosTvis~, anu politikuri partiebi erwymis xelisuflebas, rac sabolood Tavad am partias klavs da anadgurebs.
– cota saTuo mtkicebulebaa, `qarTul ocnebas~ ganadgurebis araferi etyoba. . .
– male daetyoba, es istoriuladaa gardauvali. gadaxedeT warsuls: igive mouvida `aRorZinebas~, `moqalaqeTa kavSirs~, `mrgvali magida – demokratiul saqarTvelos~. . .
– ki, magram `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ jer isev fexze dgas da momxreTa simcires ar uCivis.
– swored imitom, rom am partiis liderma SeZlo 2012 wlis 1 oqtombers eRiarebina damarcxeba da oficialurad mieloca gamarjvebuli politikuri partiisTvis warmateba. swored am qmedebam, am sityvam Seuqmna avtoriteti, romelsac uamravi amomrCeveli mihyveba dResac. is aris erTaderTi politikuri partia saqarTveloSi, romelic xelisuflebaSi iyo, damarcxda, magram hyavs myari eleqtorati da amis mizezi aris damarcxebis droulad aRiareba. Tuki amas saqarTvelos mosaxleoba kargad ar gaiazrebs, gansakuTrebiT ki Tu ar CauRrmavdeba am faqts `qarTuli ocneba~, misi politikuri elita da aRmasrulebeli xelisufleba, verasodes mivaRwevT demokratiuli faseulobebis Camoyalibebas da damkvidrebas.
– amiT ambobT, rom `qarTulma ocnebam~ Tavad daTmos poziciebi da aRiaros damarcxeba maSin, rodesac arc SarSandel arCevnebze xmebis gayalbeba dadasturda da arc amomrCevlebis naklebobas grZnobs?
– iciT, raSia saqme? dRes Tu ara, xval, xval Tu ara – zeg. . . mainc damarcxdeba `qarTuli ocneba~, mudmivi araferia da maSin gaiTqvifeba da gaqreba masaSi, iseve rogorc es daemarTa Cem mier zemoT CamoTvlil sxva partiebs. 70 weli iarseba `komunisturma partiam~, jer arnaxuli, uzarmazari imperia Seqmna, magram sabolood isic damarcxda. vimeoreb, visac SeuZlia damarcxebis aRiareba, is politikaSi usaTuod darCeba. `qarTuli ocneba~ jer kidev wina arCevnebSi damarcxda, magram ar uRiarebia, radgan gaayalba. axla ZaliT inarCunebs xelisuflebas da swored amitom moawyo Jurnalistebze Tavdasxma, riTac daaSina opoziciuri media da daanaxa, rom ar xumrobs da saqme saqmeze rom midges, arcerTs ar daindobs. mTavrobam ar unda gaarCios `sxvisi~ da `Tavisi~, unda daicvas orive mxare, miT umetes, is profesionalebi, romlebic mxolod da mxolod axal ambebs aSuqebdnen da mayureblebs WeSmarit informacias awvdidnen.
– amden xans amtkicebdiT, rom polarizaciis winaaRmdegi xarT, Tumca swored gaerTianebulma opoziciam gamoacxada boikoti, awyobda saprotesto aqciebs, ar moawera xeli miSelis dokuments, romelic polarizaciis aRmosafxvrelad ramdenimeTviani muSaobis Sedegad Seiqmna.
– Cemi gaerTianebul opoziciaSi yofna ar niSnavs, rom momwons da xels vuwyob qveynis politikuri partiebis polarizebas. arcerT interviuSi, Sexvedrebis dros, moqalaqeebTan sityviT gamosvlisas CemianebSi, mowinaaRmdegeebSi arasodes miTqvams, rom gamarjvebis SemTxvevaSi damarcxebuli unda gavagdoT qveynidan. rodesac `qarTuli ocneba~ damarcxdeba, misi pirveli piri (formaluri Tu araformaluri lideri, amas ara aqvs arsebiTi mniSvneloba) biZina ivaniSvili saqarTvelodan ar unda gavuSvaT. Tuki amaze SevTanxmdebiT, es niSnavs, rom polarizeba damTavrdeba. sxva SemTxvevaSi ki amas ver avcdebiT, radgan am kacs hyavs Tavisi mxardamWeri da hyavs erTguli xalxi.
– qveynidan gaSvebas rom axsenebT, ivaniSvilis mier saakaSvilis gadaxvewas gulisxmobT?
– diax, saqarTvelos mesame prezidentis, romelsac 9 wlis ganmavlobaSi vebrZodi da mis damarcxebaSi uzarmazari wvlili mimiZRvis.
– es yvelas gvaxsovs da axla gvikvirs – ratom emxrobiT?
– me mas marTlac mTeli ZaliT veWidavebodi da mcire ziani ar mimiRia amiT, xom gaxsovT? axla ki baTumis merobaze kenWs iyris `qarTuli ocnebidan~ kaci, romelic Tavis droze, me rom saakaSvils vebrZodi, mis gverdiT idga. xom ar vambob, Tuki damarcxdeba Ciqovani, qalaqidan gavaZevoTo, es ar iqneba samarTliani. polarizebis Sewyveta mxolod did Serigebas da xelis CamorTmevas ZaluZs.
– Tuki `nacionaluri moZraoba~ mova qveynis saTaveSi da daiwyebs `ocnebis~ momxreebis devnas?
– maSin gadmoval `ocnebis~ mxares, meti ra vTqva da ra vqna? erTxel da samudamod unda SevwyvitoT adamianis devna politikuri Tu sxva saxis Sexedulebebis gamo, raTa srulyofilad davicvaT adamianis uflebebi da Tavisufleba, ar davwyvitoT erTmaneTi politikuri Sexedulebebis gamo. vinc imarjvebs, kargia, magram vinc marcxdeba – ar aris mteri. Tuki amas gaigebs `qarTuli ocneba~, kargia, Tu ver gaigebs, daemarTeba is, rac `aRorZinebas~ daemarTa. kargad iciT, ramdeni wlis ganmavlobaSi vebrZodi aslan abaSiZes imitom, rom yalbdeboda arCevnebi, ar iyo biujeti, iyo meqrTameoba, ar iyo damoukidebeli sasamarTlo, magram 2004 wlis 6 maisis Semdeg, rodesac gauSves qveynidan, gagigiaT Cemgan, aslan abaSiZis xalxi davxvritoT, CavkiroT, vinmes gamovekide Tu ra? maSin sakmaod didi Tanamdeboba mekava, viyavi aWaris umaRles sabWoSi, saqarTvelos parlamentSi, var politikaSi, gagigiaT Cemgan `aRorZinebis kavSiris~ wevrobis gamo vinmeze augi? piriqiT, vinc mixvda, rom aslanis gverdiT dgoma Secdoma iyo, politikaSic ki davabrune da axali cxovrebis dawyebis saSualeba miveci.
– magaliTad?
– magaliTad, anzor TxilaiSvili, romelsac wlebis ganmavlobaSi vebrZodi. rogorc ki gaacnobiera, rom Secdomas sCadioda, davexmare da umaRlesi sabWos wevric ki gavxade imitom, rom am kacs hqonda sakanonmdeblo organoSi muSaobis didi potenciali. mas arc saakaSvili moswonda da miveci Tavisi Sexedulebebis gamoxatvis da politikaSi moRvaweobis saSualeba. me es magaliTi imitom momyavs, rom agixsnaT – waqceul adamianebs ar vebrZvi, rogorc wesi, vebrZvi xelisuflebebs. waagebs biZina ivaniSvili da Sevwyvet brZolas masTanac da gadaval Semdegze.
– amiT imis Tqma xom ar gsurT, rom Tqveni mosawoni xelisufleba ar mova qveynis saTaveSi. brZolis dasrulebas rodisTvis gegmavT?
– me vebrZvi imitom, rom ukeTesi xelisufleba minda da vibrZoleb manam, sanam saqarTvelos ar eyoleba misi Sesaferisi mTavroba, sruliad demokratiuli, profesionali kadrebiT dakompleqtebuli, romelic yovelTvis darCeba apolitikuri da mTel codnas da energias mosaxleobaze zrunvas moaxmars.
– rogor afasebT `qarTuli ocnebis~ mier miSelis dokumentiT gaTvaliswinebul 43%-ian barierze uaris Tqmas?
– TiTqos imitom Tqves uari, rom `enm~-ma xeli ar moawera am SeTanxmebas. yvelam kargad icis, ratomac ar moawera – amnistia rom ar Sexeboda ganurCevlad yvelas, maT, vinc xalxs Tvalebi dasTxara. rac Seexeba `ocnebas~, Tuki ver aiRebs 43%-s da ar daniSnavs vadamdel arCevnebs, miiRebs revolucias. ras niSnavs `nacionaluri moZraobis~ gamo uaris Tqma? me sul ar mainteresebs `nacionaluri moZraoba~. Tundac sxvebsac ar moewera xeli, yvelanairi resursi mmarTveli partiis xelSia. man moawera am dokuments xeli da ganacxada, rom daniSnavs arCevnebs Tu garkveul procents ver moipovebs. Tuki ar Seasrulebs sityvas, mzad var, gamovacalo is skami, parlamentSi rom udgas. es dawere SaviT TeTrze, Semdeg ki wavides da miCivlos irakli RaribaSvilma, sadac unda.
– kvleviT, `qarTuli ocneba~ 26 procents aiRebs, `enm~ – 14-s, gaxaria ki 9-s. ramdenad sworad migaCniaT es procentuli maCveneblebi?
– `qarTuli ocneba~ ki aiRebs 26%-s, magram opoziciis monacemebi ar aris marTali imitom, rom yvela erideba sakuTari WeSmariti azris gamoxatvas manam, sanam ubanSi ar miva da kabinaSi ar darCeba marto. veravis gaandoben, vis miscems xma. simarTle Tu gindaT – esaa. `ocnebam~ unda daTmos xelisufleba, radgan kidev erTi vadiT darCena diqtaturis Crdils atarebs. Cven unda gaverTiandeT evropul ojaxSi, gavwevriandeT natoSi, raTa damyardes sruli demokratia da gvqondes garantia, rom gadavrCebiT am areul msoflioSi. kargad xedavT, rac xdeba avRaneTSi, ra dReSia TurqeTi da azerbaijani, rogor ar gveSveba ruseTi. saqarTvelo mxolod evrokavSirSi igrZnobs Tavs mSvidad. sxva gza arc gvqonda da ar gvaqvs axlac. damarcxebulma damarcxeba unda aRiaros, gamarjvebulma – qveyanas da xalxs mixedos, erTmaneTs xeli CamovarTvaT da mal-male vcvaloT mTavrobebi, raTa erTxel da samudamod davamkvidroT apolitikuri saxalxo xelisuflebis aparati, romelic mxolod saqarTvelos keTildReobaze iqneba orientirebuli.