,,ექსტრადირება პირადად სააკაშვილისთვის იქნებოდა უარესი, უკრაინის ციხეში მას არ მოექცეოდნენ ასეთი პატივით”
ირმა ცეცხლაძე 27 48 93 –
mimdinare politikur procesebze, saakaSvilis politpatimrobaze, `qarTuli ocnebis~ da opoziciis perspeqtivebze saubrobs `aWarasTan~ eqskluziur interviuSi politologi ramaz sayvareliZe.
– batono ramaz, rogor SeafasebdiT saakaSvilis sityvas sasamarTlodan, romelmac araerTgvarovani Sefasebebi gamoiwvia?
– imdeni xani var Tvalyuris devnebis procesSi, rom ukve zepirad Seviswavle `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ `repertuari~ da Tamamad SemiZlia ganvacxado aqac, rom araferi axali ar momismenia arc saakaSvilis sakmaod vrcel mimarTvaSi, garda im fragmentisa, rodesac damoukidebeli sasamarTlos reforma ver SevZelio, aRiara. cxadia, esec imitom Tqva, rom Tavad idga sasamarTlos winaSe, am manevriT samarTals eWvqveS ayenebda da samomavlod, gamamtyunebel ganaCens iolad axsnida.
– sxva araferma miiqcia Tqveni yuradReba?
– yvelaferze yvelam ilaparaka, miT umetes, araferi axali ar uTqvams. sityvam ki arada, miSas fizikurma monacemebma miiqcia Cemi yuradReba. misi momxreebis isteriuli gancxadebebiT vicodiT, rom saakaSvili sikvdilis piras iyo, SimSilobiT dasustebuli da gasavaTebuli, magram misi welgamarTuli, omaxiani, lamis orsaaTiani sityvidan Canda, rom am kacs araferi uWirda arc fizikurad da arc gonebrivad. gaxsovT albaT, ra ambavi iyo atexili mis fsiqikur mdgomareobaze. am fonze miSas mimarTva Zalian mizanmimarTuli, gamarTuli da adekvaturi aRmoCnda.
– miSas fsiqikur mdgomareobaze saubari naklebad iyo. . .
– misi advokati amtkicebda, rom mis axlo-maxlo aparatura dgas, romliTac asxiveben saakaSvils fsiqikuri aSlilobis gamosawvevad, raTa goneba auriono. amas vambob. am fsiqikuri aSlilobis fonze, saakaSvili gamovida mSvidad, Zalian awyobili sityviT, skandaluri radikalizmis gareSe, ramac `wyali gadaasxa~ misive janmrTelobaze mzrunvel opoziciaSi gawevrianebul eqimebs, xmamaRla rom iTxovdnen sakuTari beladis gadarCenas specialur klinikaSi gadayvaniT.
– politikis eqspertebi miiCneven, rom saakaSvili calsaxad aris politpatimari, rasac mis irgvliv atexili aJiotaJi da mis mimarT gatarebuli mkacri zomebi adasturebs. maTi TqmiT, nebismieri patimari gadahyavdaT klinikebSi janmrTelobis ufro dabali maCveneblebiT, maSin rodesac miSas mimarT arafriT ganxorcielda msgavsi zomebi. isini goris hospitalzec Zlivs daTanxmdnen. . .
– maSin, yvela qveyanaSi dapatimrebuli yofili prezidentebi Tu Tanamdebobis pirebic politpatimrebad unda Seiracxos, radgan aJiotaJi arc erTis dapatimrebas ar aklia. sarkozic daiWires, magram marto imitom, rom media aqcevs msgavs faqtebs met yuradRebas, politpatimrad aravis miuCnevia.
– ra SemTxvevaSi CaiTvleba piri politpatimrad? rogorc wesi, aseT dros raRac kriminalurs aucileblad pouloben dasaWerad.
– arc maTlad asea saqme – rodesac araferi aqvs pirs Cadenili, mas saqmes ver Seukeraven, radgan iolad daiSleba. rom ar iyos sxva araferi motivi misi oponentobis garda, maSin SeiZleba am adamianis politpatimrad moxsenieba, magram saakaSvilis mimarT imdeni saqmea aRZruli, imdeni realuri pretenziaa, rom arafriT gamosdis politmatimroba. usamarTlo rom yofiliyo es sasamarTlo, yovelgvari mtkicebulebis gareSec aRZravdnen mis winaaRmdeg im saqmeebs, mosaxleoba dRemde rom edaveba.
– saakaSvilis Camosvlam kidev ufro gaaRrmava politikuri dapirispireba, misi eqstradireba ufro martivi gamosavali ar iqneboda?
– misi eqstradireba oficialurad aravis mouTxovia. zelenskis es sityva arc uxsenebia, mxolod media ayenebda am sakiTxs. romelime oficialurma pirma Tqva saakaSvilis sxva qveyanaSi gadayvanis Sesaxeb? gaixseneT.
– mgoni, marTla ar uTqvams aravis.
– ho, arc me SemimCnevia.
– rogor fiqrobT, rom gaeSvaT, ukeTesi iqneboda Tu ara?
– piradad saakaSvilisTvis iqneboda uaresi. ukrainis cixeSi mas ar moeqceodnen aseTi pativiT, rogorc aq, radgan ukrainelebisTvis is arafers niSnavs, qarTvelebisTvis ki saqarTvelos yofili prezidentia.
– opozicia isev iTxovs vadamdel arCevnebs, dahyveba maT moTxovnas mmarTveli gundi?
– imdenad xSirad gvesmis opoziciisgan es moTxovna, ukve eWvi gamiCnda, rom es maT emocias, ganwyobas asaxavs da arafer kavSirSia arsebuli politikuri viTarebis analizTan.
– ras gulisxmobT, gauanalizeblad iTxoven?
– ra Tqma unda, rom gaeanalizebinaT, meeWveba, moeTxovaT msgavsi raRac. elementaruli gaTvlebic sakmarisia, rom darwmunebuliyvnen, vadamdeli arCevnebi maTTvis gamosavali ar aris. 2004 wlis Semdeg opozicias arcerTi arCevnebi ar mougia da rad undaT es vadamdeli arCevnebi, gaugebaria.
– ras ambobT, darwmunebuli arian – moigeben.
– hoda, magas vambob, maTi inteleqti ver aris iseT doneze, rom rasac acxadeben, sarwmunod miviCnio. odesme, romelime arCevnebze opozicias hqonda wagebis eWvi?
– arasodes.
– da rodesme moigo?
– ara
– aba, ratom aqvT axla molodini? radgan Tqves, aucileblad moigeben?
– imitom, rom am etapze darwmunebuli arian, meore turi uxeSad rom ar gaeyalbebina mmarTvel gunds, aucileblad moigebdnen 20-ve TviTmmarTvel qalaqSi.
– amas amboben, magram darwmunebuli rom iyvnen magaSi, ufro bejiTad moiTxovdnen ubnebis gadaTvlas, uamravi sarCeli Sevidoda sasamarTloSi da a.S. anu dagrovdeboda is dokumentacia, romelic eWvqveS ayenebs arCevnebis Sedegebs da qmnis imis varauds, rom TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebi marTla gayalbda. aseTi masala, `qarTuli ocnebis~ braldebisTvis, opoziciam ver moagrova. sabolood ki acxadebda, mainc gayalbdao, magram dRes uargumentod SeiZleba davujeroT vinmes? sasamarTloSi rom ganvacxadoT, petre mkvlelia, mosamarTle ar mogTxovT mtkicebulebas?
– axla saubaria sakonstitucio cvlilebebze. irakli kobaxiZe acxadebs, rom SesaZloa ar daamtkicon saarCevno reformisas 2%-iani barieri da datovon 5%. piradad ramdenad gamarTlebulad migaCniaT barieris ase daweva?
– 2%-iani barieri ukeTesad mimaCnia, radgan gacilebiT meti politikuri Zala Seva parlamentSi da qveynis sakanonmdeblo organo ufro mravalferovani iqneba.
– kobaxiZe Tvlis, rom Tuki gadawydeba 2%, saCuqari iqneba opoziciis.
– es mxolod opoziciis saCuqari ara, Tavad mmarTveli gundisTvisac saCuqari iqneba. SevardnaZem sul dauwia bariers, oRond politikuri partiebis didi nawili Sesuliyo parlamentSi da ar gasuliyvnen quCaSi. quCaSi politikaa xelisuflebis mimarT didi riskis mqone. ase rom, es erTnairad saCuqaria rogorc erTi, ise meore mxarisTvis.
– kazinoebis winaaRmdeg RaribaSvilis gegmas afaseben rogorc kritikuli mediis dasjis mcdelobas, radgan am kuTxiT reklamebis akrZalva daazaralebs maT biujets.
– Tu `kritikul medias~ azartuli TamaSebis reklamirebis garda sxva Semosavali ar aqvs, gamodis, arc reitingi aqvs saTanado. azarti xom sazogadoebis didi nawilisTvis igive narkotikia, ufro uaresic ki, yovel SemTxvevaSi, ase ganixilavs am damokidebulebas fsiqiatria. maSin narkotiksac reklamireba gaukeTon da is kidev ufro met Semosavals moutanT. piradad me, RaribaSvilis am gadawyvetilebas araTu gamarTlebulad, dagvianebuladac ki miviCnev.
– ra elodeba `qarTul ocnebas~? misi kidev erTxel arCeva xom warmoudgenelia. . .
– ratom? Tuki igive situacia Seiqmna 2024 wlis winasaarCevno periodSi, isev aqvs `qarTul ocnebas~ gamarjvebis realuri Sansi. SesaZloa 2-3%-iT, magram mainc gaimarjvebs. opozicia, rac ar unda ecados, im SemadgenlobiT, axla rom aqvs, 30%-s Tu aiRebs. rac ar unda Tqvan, faqtia, rom 2020-21 weli opoziciis marcxiT dasrulda, xolo damarcxebuls yovelTvis akldebian momxreebi, ar ematebian. imitom hqonda maTTvis amxela mniSvneloba TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebze gamarjvebas, radgan maSin meti momxre gahyveboda, magram mxolod erT regionSi, walenjixanSi moaxerxes saTanado xmebis mokreba.
– principSi, jerjerobiT baTumis sakrebuloc opoziciuria. . .
– ki, amboben, rom mosyidvis mcdelobac iyo, magram sanam sasamarTlos gadawyvetileba ar iqneba, ver davijereb, samwuxarod, iseTi uZvlo gaxda qarTuli opoziciis ena, rom yovelgvar zRvars scildeba.
– Tavad am sasamarTlos dausrulebel reformebze ras gvetyodiT?
– ar mesmis, aq ra xdeba, simarTle giTxraT, ratom aiCemes es saxelgatexili mosamarTleebi, romelTa mimarT ndoba daikarga ara mxolod saakaSvilisdroindeli warsulis, aramed konkretuli saqmeebis arasworad warmarTvis gamo. grovdeba es saqmeebi, axlac hqondaT kiTxvebi bevris Sesaxeb, sadac amaTi gamotanili ganaCeni Semdeg gadaixeda. ra saWiroa aseTi mosamarTleebis ukvdavebad qceva, maTze qarTuli samarTlis dayrdnoba da maTTvis aseTi Tavgamodebuli brZola `qarTuli ocnebis~ mxridan, sruliad gaugebaria.
– opozicia Tvlis, rom sWirdebaT saTaviso sasamarTlo. . .
– es argumentic ar aris damajerebeli. mTavrobis mxare SeiZleba nebismierma mosamarTlem daiWiros, gaaCnia viTarebas. ra, isini daibadnen saakaSvilis momxre mosamarTleebad? umetes qveynebSi, rogorc wesi, met-naklebad angariSs uwevs xelisuflebas sasamarTlo xelisufleba. aqac SesaZloa, ase yofiliyo da amitom ver gamigia, ratom iklavs Tavs am konkretul mosamarTleebze mmarTveli gundi.
– aSkarad igrZnoba im politikuri Zalis deficiti, romelsac xalxi miendoba, amasTan, Zlierdeba inflacia, krizisSia ekonomika, izrdeba umuSevroba. . .
– meeWeba, rom ekonomikis vardna raime kavSirSi iyos politikasTan. kargad iciT, rac xdeba msoflio pandemiis gamo mTel msoflioSi, magram geTanxmebiT politikuri Zalis gamoCenis aucileblobaSi. axla moqmedi orive politikuri gundi miuRebelia mosaxleobis 50%-isTvis, anu maTTvis, vinc saerTod ar dadis arCevnebze. erTs ar swyaloben politikuri warsulis gamo, meores – awmyos gamo. bevri mougvarebeli sakiTxia, bevri pretenziaa dagrovili `qarTuli ocnebis~ mimarT. aseT pirobebSi axali Zala unda gamoCndes. iyo fermkTali molodini gaxarias mimarT, rom is moaxerxebda politikuri alternativis Seqmnas, magram es molodini gaqra, radgan am bolo periodSi aRar Cans arsad. aseTi pasiurobiT politikuri partia didxans ver gastans. gamodis, ekonomikasTan erTad, politikuri krizisic da politikosTa deficitic gvaqvs. anu gvaklia imis unari, rom SevqmnaT axali politikuri Zala. meore mxriv, igive gaxarias rom davubrundeT, imasac aRmoaCenT, rom is pasiuria rogorc opoziciis, ise poziciis mimarT, iseve, rogorc zemoxsenebuli amomrCevelTa 50%, romelic ar dadis arCevnebze da rCeba saxlSi. igive STabeWdilebas tovebs gaxariac, isic `saxlSi wasulia~ am arCevnebze.
– rogor warimarTeba saakaSvilis irgvliv procesebi?
– mgoni, uaxloes momavalSi araferi gansakuTrebuli ar iqneba. saakaSvilis irgvliv atexili emociebi Caqreba, radgan opozicia mcirericxovan aqciebsac veRar abams Tavs da xalxs ver krebs. mosaxleoba ukve iCens indiferentulobas mimdinare politikuri procesebis mimarT da rogorc amas xsnis opoziciis aqtivi, arc xelisuflebis ndobis krizisia xalxSi. gvaxsovs, ramden xans, ra energiulad akritikebdnen mTavrobas zviadis momxreebi, magram bolos mosaxleobaSi gaRizianebas ufro iwvevdnen, vidre Tanadgomas. ase rom, amaTma aqtiurma protestebmac ki qveynis politikur cxovrebaze gavlena ar iqonia. raRac analogiuris momswre gavxdebiT saakaSvilis mimarTac.
– mwvane pasportebze ras fiqrobT, bevr mowinave qveyanaSi iZulebiTi vaqcinaciac ki SemoiRes.
– ki, SemoiRes, radgan vaqcinacia marTlac sasicocxlod aucilebeli Seiqmna Cveni arsebobisTvis. istoriis manZilze cnobili bevri pandemia welSi gatexa swored vaqcinam da ratom ebrZvian ase TavgamodebiT am vaqcinas, marTlac gaugebaria. mwvane pasportis SemoRebac iZulebaa mTavrobis mier, radgan Tu ar geqneba, ijeqi saxlSi. yoveldRiurad ramdeni adamiani iRupeba, yvela vismenT da vxedavT. sxva Tu araferi, marto am daRupuli adamianebis gamo unda avicraT. yveladRiurad, daRupulTa winaSe arian pasuxismgebelni isini, vinc uars amboben vaqcinaciaze. sxvagvarad am gulgrilobas ver Sevafaseb.
