მზეჭაბუკებზე აგებულმა პოლიტიკამ სადამდე მიგვიყვანა ?
მარიამ ხითარიშვილი: 27 48 93 –
ra mdgomareobaa qveyanaSi, ratom dagvWirda erovnuli Serigeba, arsebobs Tu ara politikuri krizisi, vin gaabedniera saakaSvilma Tavisi CamosvliT da ra gamoiyvans qveyanas Cixidan – amaze saubrobs CvenTan interviuSi aWaris umaRlesi sabWos deputati irakli CavleiSvili.
– Sedgeba Tu ara erovnuli Serigeba, romelic iTava saqarTvelos prezidentma?
– Sedgeba Tu ara, ar vici, simarTle giTxraT, am procesis mimarT pesimisturad var ganwyobili. manam, sanam ar moinaniebs `nacionaluri moZraoba~ im danaSaulebriv qmedebebs, rac Caidina sazogadoebis, sakuTari xalxis winaSe, Serigeba ver moxdeba. amis naTeli magaliTia is tragikuli movlena, rac ganviTarda baTumis sakrebulos `nacionaluri moZraobis~ wevris nugzar futkaraZis gardacvalebiT. ki iZaxian, gamoZieba daadgenso, magram yvelam kargad viciT, rom masze realurad ganxorcielda zewola, ramac Seiwira am pirovnebis sicocxle. amiT imis Tqma minda, rom sanam gulwrfeli monanieba ar iqneba, manam ver Serigdeba orad gaxleCili sazogadoeba.
– iqneb ufro daakonkretoT, ra gaqvT mxedvelobaSi, nugzar futkaraZis gardacvaleba xom `erTian nacionalur moZraobas~ ar braldeba?
– axlave agixsniT, monanieba calmxrivi ki ara, ormxrivi unda iyos. yvelas gvaxsovs, baTumSi cnobili, Carkvianebis ojaxi. parlamentari, biznesmeni Temur Carkvianic, siRnaRi rom kulturul Zeglad aqcia. isic viciT, ra mdgomareobaSi Caagdo es naTeli, qvelmoqmedi pirovneba saakaSvilis gundma. Zalian mZimea, misi axloblebisTvis am faqtis gaxseneba, magram isic deputati iyo da TviTmkvlelobamde miiyvanes, ar dautoves alternativa. aravis gamouZiebia araferi, arada, wesiT, unda aReZraT sisxlis samarTlis saqme TviTmkvlelobamde miyvanis muxliT. aseve, SemiZlia gavixseno Tamaz TofuriZe, qalaqis sakrebulos wevri, deputati, cnobili biznesmeni, romelic im dReSi Caagdes, rom mZime daavadeba ganuviTarda da gardaicvala. Tamazi Cemi siyrmis megobari iyo, man miambo yvelaferi. Tamamad SeiZleba iTqvas, rom isic maSindeli reJimis msxverpli gaxda. uamravi msgavsi magaliTis moyvana SeiZleba. aqedan gamomdinare, sanam `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ eris winaSe ar moinaniebs sakuTar kriminalur qmedebebs, romelic adamianebs sicocxlis da janmrTelobis fasad ujdebodaT, manamde aravin daijerebs maT gulwrfelobas.
– xom moixades bodiSi, yovel SemTxvevaSi, amboben, rom gaiTvaliswineben warsul Secdomebs . . .
– es ar iyo Secdomebi, es iyo mizanmimarTuli qmedebebi, rac mosdevda saakaSvilis mier Seqmnil kriminalur sistemas, romelic ZirSive spobda nebismiers, romelic mis winaaRmdeg wavidoda. axla trivialurad acxadeben, rom gadaixades politikuri safasuri da mzad arian xelisuflebaSi isev mosvlisTvis. Tu gvinda Serigeba, yvelafers unda daerqvas Tavisi saxeli da xmamaRla unda ganacxadon, rom swored maTi mmarTvelobis periodSi daiwyo adamianebze zewola, dapatimreba, wameba, daumorCileblebis TviTmkvlelobamde miyvana, ojaxebis ganadgureba, biznesis reketi, quCaSi mkvlelobebi da uamravi sxva ram. bodiSi unda mouxadon maT represiebSi moxvedril TiToeul adamians, ojaxebs, sazogadoebas da aRiaron, rom maTi xelSewyobiT xdeboda es yvelaferi. isic vTqvaT, rom am xalxs aravin misca kompensacia, aravin aRiara dazaralebulad, sistemis msxverplad. is ki ara, dResac grZeldeba msgavsi procesi, SeiZleba gacilebiT msubuqad, magram mainc. ra qnas sazogadoebis im nawilma, romelsac ar unda arc erTi mxare, ar midis saarCevno yuTebTan da saxlSi damjdari agrZelebs protests. Tuki erovnul Serigebaze da monaniebazea saubari, orive politikurma Zalam unda moinanios da ganacxados saxalxod, rom msgavsi faqtebi aRar ganmeordeba.
– saakaSvilTan xom iyo Sesuli mamao, romelmac ganacxada, rom man moinania codvebi.
– Cven yvelani codvilebi varT. morwmuneebi mudmivad vinaniebT Cadenil codvebs moZRvarTan, raTa ziareba miviRoT da suli SevimsubuqoT. es sul sxvaa. rodesac sajaro piri xar da qveynis pirvelobaze gaqvs pretenzia, sajarod unda gamoxvide da sazogadoebas mouxado bodiSi. mxolod amis Semdeg SeiZleba CavTvaloT, rom Serigebis procesi daiZra mkvdari wertilidan.
– raSi xedavT gamosavals?
– yvela axali xelisuflebis mosvlis Semdeg iqneba erTmaneTze wamoZaxeba, Sens dros ase iyo, me es gavakeTe da a.S. es Tema gagrZeldeba usasrulobamde. biZina ivaniSvili formalurad mainc gadadga. arafers vityvi imaze, rom dRemde arsebobs misi araformaluri gavlena xelisuflebaze, yovel SemTxvevaSi, amaSi bevrs eWvic ar epareba. miSa saakaSvilic unda wavides politikidan da piroba dados, rom aRar Caereva saqarTvelos saSinao saqmeebSi, mxolod maSin damSviddeba yvela. ar aris es misTvis miuRebeli pozicia, Tuki marTla surs am qveynis dalageba, damSvideba da mis mier Seqmnili partiis ganviTareba. man uari unda Tqvas sajaro politikaze, Tuki raime kargi gaukeTebia, amas sazogadoeba wlebis Semdeg Seafasebs. rac cudi gaakeTa, arc imas daiviwyebs, magram apatiebs. asea cxovreba, dros yvelaferi xelewifeba, magram Tu raime ar dasrulda, axali arc daiwyeba. sxva mxriv, ar damTavrdeba erTmaneTze wamoZaxili, jibri, vin ra gaakeTa da ra ver moaxerxa gaekeTebina. amis gamo, mosaxleoba xedavs mxolod or fers – Savs da TeTrs. verc akeTeben arCevans politikosTa Soris. gurulebs aqvT gamoTqma: `mis uaress jobia~, hoda, mxolod am principiT moqmedeben.
– saakaSvilis gaSveba qveynidan ar aris gamosavali yvelasTvis?
– ara mgonia. Tqven warmoidgineT, Seqmnili viTarebiT yvela kmayofili da bednieria. ilias leqsis perifrazs gavakeTeb, `CvenisTana bednieri, gana aris sadme eri?~ zustad igive situacia Seiqmna axlac. bednieria xelisufleba, rom saakaSvili sakuTari fexiT eaxla da umtkivneulod aiyvana. swored am moulodneli vizitiT SesZlo `qarTulma ocnebam~ TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebSi im 47%-is aReba, saerTaSoriso azris Camosayalibeblad principulad rom sWirdeboda. garemoebaTa aseT iRblian damTxvevaze verc ki iocnebebda. axla meore mxareze vilaparakoT – `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobac~ bednieria – misi lideri aqaa, politikaSia, reitingic aewiaT, Tanac xels araferSi uSlis, radgan cixeSia. ukrainac bednieria – aseTi odiozuri politikuri figura umtkivneulod CamoiSora misTvis urTules situaciaSi. amerikis SeerTebuli Statebic bednieria – miSa saakaSvili aRaraa ganxeTqilebis vaSli saqarTvelos isedac myife politikaSi, romlis sworad warmarTvac dasavleTis interesebSia. – ruseTic bednieria, gansakuTrebiT, putini, rogorc iqna, miSa saakaSvili cixeSia.
– gamodis, saakaSvilis garda yvela bednieria?
– isic bednieri iqneboda, sworad rom gaeTvala situacia. unda vaRiaroT, Tavaweuli Sevida cixeSi, magram ar egona amden xans Tu gagrZeldeboda misi patimroba. rogor warmogidgeniaT oTx kedelSi gamomwyvdeuli miSa, romelic kabinetSi ver eteoda da dRis ganmavlobaSi ramdenjerme icvlida lokacias, baTumi-Tbilisis da evropis dedaqalaqebis sahaero gzebi kacs gasworebuli hqonda. is ver eteva am ganzomilebebSi, magram politikurad gacocxlda. Tumca, Tqven marTali xarT, xelisuflebas ar unda aZlevdes xels miSas aq yofna, radgan mudmivi daZabulobis kera iqneba. sazogadoebac kargad xedavs, rom milevad reJimSia es ambavi. cota xanSi axali weli mova, mere Soba, ZveliT axali weli . . . am periodSi, qarTvelebs, qeifis garda, arafrisTvis scxelaT. aqedan gamomdinare, miSas faqtori gadaiwevs kulisebSi. xom xedavT, mitingebzec naklebad midis xalxi, radgan yvelas Tavisi gasaWiri aqvs. saakaSvilis Camosvlam sazogadoebis da qveynis problemebi ver gadawyvita. mxolod `nacionalurma moZraobam~ moimata aqtivebi, romelic isedac zRvramdea, met amomrCevels ver daimatebs. igive zRvarzea misuli `qarTuli ocnebis~ amomrCevelic. damatebiTi xmebi Sua rgolidan miiRo orivem, ris xarjzec waages 5-6%-ianma partiebma, romelTa mxardamWerebi Camovidnen 2-3%-ze. Sua rgolSi arian adamianebi, romlebsac arc erTi da arc meore wamyvani politikuri Zala ar moswons. eseni amomrCevelTa 20%-ze mets Seadgenen. aqedan gamomdinare, srul gamarjvebas verc `qarTuli ocneba~ moipovebs da verc `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~. am dros unda imarjvon e.w. `SuaSistebma~, romlebic sxvagvarad xedaven qveynis momavals.
– bevri patara partia cdilobs Tavi warmoadginos `SuaSistebis~ liderad, magram araferi gamosdis.
– amaSia saqme, es ar aris erTi romelime konkretuli partiis konglomerati, rogorc Cemuloben. arsebobs saqarTveloSi mcirericxovani partiebi, romelsac Tavisi erTguli amomrCeveli hyavs, Tumca mzeWabukebs ver gamohkra xeli.
– lideris gareSe darCenilebs saerTod ver aRiqvams eleqtorati.
– modiT, maSin isic vTqvaT, mzeWabukebze agebulma politikam sadamdec migviyvana. mxolod Sav-TeTrSi vxedavT qarTul politikas. arada, arsebobs sxva ferebic, sxva politikuri mimdinareobebic da sxvagvarad moazrovne qarTvelebic. cota – ar niSnavs uxarisxos. swored am partiebma unda Camoayalibon sakuTari msoflmxedveloba, raTa saTqmeli miitanon mosaxleobamde. am msoflmxedvelobas unda misces amomrCevelma xma da ar iZaxos: `vinc movida, gaumarjos!..~
– batono irakli, iqneb, vendoT Salvas da mivceT Sansi?
– ratomac ara, zogi leiboristebs airCevs, zogi `girCs~, zogic – `evropul saqarTvelos~. xmebi unda daiqsaqsos, raTa absoluturi umravlesoba ar miiRos mxolod erTma Zalam. saerTo jamSi, TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebma swored es dagvanaxa, rom partiebi, romelic mxolod ori-sami wevriT gavida municipalitetebSi, gaxda gadamwyveti xmis matarebeli sakrebuloebis saboloo mowyobaSi. ase iqneba momaval parlamentSic. patara partiebiT gasuli deputatebi Camoayalibeben jgufs, romelic bevr problemur sakiTxs moagvarebs. Sesabamisad, absoluturi Zalaufleba gadanawildeba, arc erTi partiis xelSi ar iqneba. magaliTad SeiZleba moviyvanoT germania, sadac mcire partiebis Tanxmobis gareSe, mmarTveli Zala ver Rebulobs qveynisTvis mniSvnelovan gadawyvetilebas. igive xdeba evropis sxva saxelmwifoebSic. patara partiebs aqvT sakuTari niSa da warmoadgenen sazogadoebis sxvadasxva fenisgarkveul nawils.
– opoziciis boikotis gamo TviTmmarTvel qalaqebs uWirT saqmianobis aRdgena.
– rac Seexeba boikots, protestis am formam `Cailuris wyali dalia~. veranair Sedegs ver iZleva. piriqiT, arRvevs qveynis ekonomikas da stabilurobas. ras hgavs, sakrebulos sxdomebze yiJiniT Sevardna. xalxs imdeni gaWirveba aqvs, yvelaferi gaZvirebulia, inflaciaa, komunalur pirobebs ver agvareben. adamianebs unda daexmaron da ara destabilizacia awyon. radgan airCies, keTili inebon da saqme akeTon. opozicia imdeni kia, rom gadawyvitos mTeli rigi sakiTxebi da sakuTari moqalaqeebis bedze, maT gaWirvebasa da socialuri problemebis mogvarebaze ifiqros, cxovrebis pirobebi gagviumjobesos. esaa maTi, deputatebis mTavari funqcia da ara performansebis gamarTva. quCis aqciebis meti ra minaxavs. quCa axdens faseulobebis devalvacias, politikosebis marginalizacias, adamianebs auxeSebs. quCaSi ver SeiZen akademiur stils, rac politikosebs sWirdebaT auditoriebSi Sexvedrebisas. maTi gamosvlebi iZens mitingur xasiaTs da Sors dgas saqmiani tonisgan, romelic aucilebelia stabilur, saxelmwifoebriv garemoSi. Sedegic ar Cans – miSa isev cixeSia, revolucia ver ganviTarda am qveyanaSi, radgan imdeni simware viwvnieT am areulobiT, rom sazogadoebac aRar eZebs arCevnebis garda sxva meqanizms. cxovrebam dagvarwmuna, rom mxolod kanonieri gziT aris SesaZlebeli mTavrobebis cvla da ukeTesi momavlisken svla. imis miuxedavad, rom dRes Wrial-WrialiT midis Cveni demokratia, Rrmad var darwmunebuli, rom mxolod da mxolod arCevnebiT Seicvleba Semdgomi mTavroba. es maZlevs imis imedsac, rom momavali arCevnebi Catardeba 2024 wels da amisTvis moemzadebian rogorc msxvili, ise mcire partiebi, raTa ukeT Camoayalibon sakuTari msoflmxedveloba da daaintereson amomrCeveli.
– prezidentis TaosnobiT organizebul Serigebaze `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ gamoucxadeblobaze ras gvetyviT?
– Tavis droze prezidentma ganacxada, rom arc erT SemTxvevaSi ar Seiwyalebs saakaSvils. aqedan gamomdinare, masTan `nacionaluri moZraobis~ wevrebis vaxSamze misvla cota uxerxuli gamodis. warmoidgineT, midixar prezidentis karze, saaxalwlo zeimze, romelic apriori, geubneba, rom Seni partiis lideri damnaSavea da cixeSi unda ijdes. aseT adamians rom eaxlo, normalurad ar Cans. meore mxriv, isicaa, rom mxolod qalbatoni salomes prioritetia miSas gaTavisufleba, is erTaderTi adamiania msoflioSi, visac xelewifeba yofili prtezidentis Sewyaleba, romelsac ramdenime muxli aqvs wayenebuli.
– isic iTqva, rom es Serigeba swored miSas gamosaSvebad moewyoo.
– politikaSi arasdros ar unda Tqva `arasdros~. mec mimaCnia, rom saakaSvili muxruWia Cveni qveynisTvis da amitom, uari unda Tqvas politikaze. isic unda Seignos, rom erT mdinareSi orjer ver Seva.
– uars ityvis miSa politikaze? raRac warmoudgenlad meCveneba.
– misi cixeSi gamomwyvdeva, albaT, amis winapirobaa. nelson mandela Tu iqneba da 25 wels cixeSi gaatarebs, Semdeg isev prezidentad rom dagvibrundes, maSin, unda daufasdes . . . Tumca, Zalian meeWveba, nelsonoba surdes.
