რამაზ საყვარელიძის ვერსიით, სააკაშვილი ქართულ ციხეში უკრაინელ ოლიგარქებს ემალება
ირმა ცეცხლაძე 27 48 93 –
axali wlis dReebSi TiTqos gamoeTiSa saqarTvelo politikur bataliebs, aRaravin interesdeboda, ra Wama miSam an ras apireben misi TanamebrZolebi. . . magram jer yazaxeTSi mimdinare areulobam isev dagvabruna mware realobaSi, Semdeg ki daiwyo uyuradRebod mitovebuli eqsprezidentis pretenziebis ganxilva, rac sainiciativo jgufis `miSas seqtoris~ mier `daumorCileblobis jgufebis~ Seqmnis daanonsebam daagvirgvina. maTi gancxadebiT, brZolas mTeli qveynis masStabiT gaagrZeleben, sanam saqarTvelos eqsprezidenti ar gaTavisufldeba. am jgufis warmomadgenelma levan merebaSvilma gaavrcela gancxadeba: `vTavazobT farTo gaerTianebas im adamianebs, visac yvela kanonieri qmedebis farglebSi reJimis damxobis survili aqvs. regionebSi daviwyebT moZraobas TanamoazreebTan erTad, romelic gaiSleba qveynis masStabiT. uaxloes dReebSi dedaqalaqSi daumorCileblobis jgufebi Seiqmneba. es iqneba mravali jgufi da sazogadoebac ixilavs, rom amisTvis mzad varT da bolomde vibrZolebT~. misive TqmiT, daumorCileblobis jgufebi xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebs mouwyoben rogorc `sircxvilis koridorebs~, aseve sxvadasxva uwyebasTan mivlen.
am sakiTxebze gTavazobT intervius politolog ramaz sayvareliZesTan, romelic ixsenebs saakaSvilTan muSaobis wlebs da sakmaod gansxvavebuli rakursiT warmogvidgens eqsprezidents.
– batono ramaz, upirvelesad, gilocavT Soba-axal wels, saukeTeso survilebiT.
– Zalian didi siyvaruliT gpasuxobT am molocvaze. 35 weliwadze metia, rac TqvenTan, JurnalistebTan urTierToba mosdevs Cems cxovrebas da Cemi arsebobis, Sromis da TviTgamoxatvis nawilad iqca. aqedan gamomdinare, minda guliT mogilocoT Soba-axali weli da warmatebebi vusurvo gazeT `aWaras~, romelTanac aqtiurad vTanamSromlob am bolo dros.
– saaxalwlo mejlisebis da drostarebis Semdeg, kvlav gaaqtiurda politikuri cxovreba, isev dadga dRis wesrigSi saakaSvilis da misi momxreebis gancxadebebi. ras fiqrobT am bolo dReebSi daanonsebul `daumorCileblobis jgufebis~ Seqmnasa da patimar saakaSvilis mimarTvebze?
– minda gavixseno Cemi cxovrebis erTi monakveTi, romelic eqsprezidentTanaa dakavSirebuli. saakaSvili zurab Jvaniam 1995 wlis parlamentSi moiwvia. mas im droidan vicnob. soso kirTaZesTan da sxva kolegebTan erTad, parlamentis politikuri mrCevlebis jgufSi viyavi, kargad gavicani maSindeli Semadgenloba. amitom CemTvis miSa mxolod is figura ar aris, rac am bolo dros airekla Cvens politikaSi.
– rogori iyo maSindeli mixeil saakaSvili?
– mixeil saakaSvili gamoirCeoda gonierebiT, sxarti azrovnebiT, damoukidebeli analizis unariT da sakuTari gadawyvetilebebis realizaciiT. erTxelac, holandiaSi gavemgzavreT parlamentarebis jgufTan erTad. zurab Jvaniam rodesac STabeWdilebebis gaziareba mTxova, holandiaze gavleqse, Semdeg parlamentarebic moikiTxa da me vupasuxe: mixeil saakaSvili saqarTvelos momavali prezidentia. `saidan moitane, Sen xom ar gadairieo?!~, – Seicxada zuram.
– mainc ra SeamCnieT aseTi?
– mas azrovnebis da moqmedebis iseTi stili hqonda, msgavsi unarebiT gamorCeuli adamianebi, rogorc wesi, politikaSi mizans aucileblad aRweven. am fonze, CemTvis gaugebaria misi saqcieli, misi gancxadebebi, qceva, mowodebebi, sasamarTloze aseTi sityviT gamosvlebi, romelmac mis adekvaturobaSi eWvi Segvatanina.
– misi aq Camosvlac gaugebari iyo. . .
– diax, Camovida saqarTveloSi, TavisiT Cabarda policias, did xans arc aZebnina Tavi da mSvidobianad, sakuTari nebiT (SeiZleba asec vTqvaT) Cajda cixeSi da axla iqidan isvris replikebs, xan SimSilobisken mouwodebs xalxs, xan daumorCileblobisken ubiZgebs da areulobis agorebas apirebs. ar aris mixeil saakaSvili ise mowyvetili realobas, rogorc es SeiZleba erTi danaxviT mogeCvenoT. sakmaod pragmatuli da realisturad moazrovne tipia. xSirad akeTebs iseT manevrebs, rodesac gaifiqrebT, es kaci mTlad dalagebuli veraao, magram mSvid urTierTobaSi rom naxavT, absoluturad SegecvlebaT wina STabeWdileba. piriqiT, darwmundebiT, ramdenad saRi gansjis unari aqvs da rogori gawonasworebulia msjelobebSi. aqedan gamomdinare, rodesac vixseneb mis realur monacemebs da vici risi gamkeTebelia, am qcevebs da gancxadebebs verafriT vxsni.
– SesaZloa, es yvelaferi Sirmaa, magram maSin raSi dasWirda aq Camosvla da cixeSi Cajdoma?
– SesaZloa Sirmac iyos da amis ukan ufro didi ram imalebodes, risi gaSifrvac axla SeuZlebelia. radgan ver vxsniT amas, imitom migvaCnia misi saqcieli araadekvaturad, Torem Tavad rom adekvaturia axlac, amaSi eWvi arc me mepareba da arc imaT, kargad rom icnoben miSas eqstravagantul manerebs, romlis ukan aucileblad dgas ufro didi mizani, vidre es erTi SexedviT Cans.
amboben, ver gaTvala, SeeSala, ar eloda rom daiWerdnen, ususuri egona es mTavroba, magram magari gamodga da sxv. ra didi gaTvla da SorsmWvreteloba undoda imas, rom Camovidoda da daiWerdnen, Tanac ar emaleboda. amitom didad damajereblad ar meCveneba es moaruli versiebi.
– Tqveni versia rogoria?
– me mgonia, ufro ukrainaSia ZaRlis Tavi damarxuli. saakaSvili iq bevr oligarqs daupirispirda da araa gamoricxuli, iseT mZime mdgomareobaSi aRmoCnda, iqidan gamoqceva dasWirda, xolo devnis procesSi yvelaze usafrTxo adgili – cixea. ase rom, is saqarTveloSi ki ar gadmoipara sazRvarze, piriqiT, ukrainidan gamoipara da erTaderTi qveyana, sadac mas maSinve moZebnidnen, adgils miuCendnen da yuradRebis centrSi moaqcevdnen, cxadia, saqarTvelo iyo. aq mas marTlac araferi emuqreba, radgan kargad icavs mTavrobac da misi mxardamWerebic, anu advilad ver miswvdeba veravin.
– mZime mdgomareobaSia saqarTvelos mosaxleoba: inflacia, tarifebis zrda, umuSevroba, socialuri fonis gauareseba zrdis xalxis ukmayofilebas mTavrobis mimarT. ras fiqrobT, ras moimoqmedebs `qarTuli ocneba~ am situaciaSi, Tan, yazaxeTis ambebsac Tu gavixsenebT. . .
– ra Tqma unda, ukmayofilo iqneba mosaxleoba, radgan marTlac umZimesi socialuri fonia, magram igive yazaxeTis ambebs Tu SevexebiT, vnaxeT, rac gamoiwvia bunebrivi airis gaZvirebam, magram meeWveba, igive scenaris ganmeoreba aq vinmes moundes. yvelas gvegona, yazaxeTSi stabiluri viTareba iyo aTwleulebis ganmavlobaSi, magram rogorc axla aRmoCnda, sul sxvagvarad yofila saqme da am ukmayofilebas gacilebT Rrma fesvebi aqvs, vidre komunaluri xarjebis gaZvireba.
aqedan gamomdinare, ar mgonia xalxi quCaSi gamovides mxolod imis gamo, rom ar moswons `qarTuli ocnebis~ reJimi. asea Tu ise, mmarTveli gundi qveyanaSi mSvidobas da stabilurobas inarCunebs. Tan isic viswavleT qarTvelebma, rom armowonebis gamo areulobis Seqmna da daumorCilebloba, axla rom `miSas seqtori~ aanonsebs, qveyanas daangrevs. stabiluri gziT `qarTuli ocnebis~ Secvla aris arCevnebi. amisTvis ki alternatiuli partia unda gyavdes. msgavsi Zala jerjerobiT ar Cans. mxolod erTi politikuri gaerTianebaa konkurentunariani – `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~, magram es kino nanaxi gvaqvs. danarCeni ki Zalian susti, patara partiebia. ase rom, iqmneba situacia, rodesac SesaZlebelia xelisufleba ar moswonT, magram sxva radgan ar Cans, urCevniaT daelodon. imedi viqonioT, rom 2024 wlisTvis saqarTveloSi gaCndeba politikuri gaerTianeba, romelic konkurentunariani gaxdeba, miizidavs Tavis rigebSi axalgazrda politikosebs, vinc ndobas moipovebs sazogadoebaSi da TavisTavad, eleqtoratsac gaiCens. jerjerobiT, araferi msgavsi ar dafiqsirebula qarTul politsivrceSi. vnaxoT, rogor da ra iqneba.
– Seva Tu ara parlamentSi Salva naTelaSvili, sakuTar mandats feisbuqmomxarebels rom andobs – leiboristuli partiis lideri gamokiTxvas socialur qselSi Caatarebs. ratom gadawyvita Salva naTelaSvilma 2020 wels miRebuli mandatis 2022 wels gamoyeneba?
– ra giTxraT, aba, xan ras acxadeben da xan ras. kargi, Sevlen leiboristebi parlamentSi, Semdeg ra moxdeba? gaqvT ki imis imedi, rom naTelaSvilis parlamentSi Sesvla mas da mis partias ufro produqtiuls gaxdis, rom misi sakanonmdeblo organoSi Sesvlis survili kanonebsa da cvlilebebze muSaobisken ltolvaa?.. ar tovebs es msgavsi cvlilebebis STabeWdilebas da amitom cota Znelia imaze laparaki, ra ganzraxviT miemarTeba parlamentisken.
– enm iTxovs saakaSvilis Rirsebis Semlaxavi kadrebis gamoqveynebaSi damnaSavis gamosavlenad Seiqmnas komisia, aseve surs samedicino daskvnis miReba, rom eqsprezidents ar ukeTeben fsiqotropul preparatebs, ar agiJeben da a.S. moTxovnis daukmayofileblobis SemTxvevaSi, ar Sewyveten boikots da ar Sevlen parlamentSi.
– isini, cxadia, amaSi xelisuflebas sdeben brals. iqneb Tavad opozicia agiJebs sakuTar liders? iseT molodins uCens, Tundac imiT, rom Tu ar Seasrulebs xelisufleba moTxovnebs, gamovalT quCaSi da mTeli saqarTvelo gverdiT dagvidgebao, rom isic emociebs hyveba. cxadad ki ra mdgomareobaa, yvelam viciT, aravin aRelvebula arc maT SimSilobaze da arc quCaSi gamosula bevri maTive momxre. aRar mosw-onT qarTvelebs quCaSi dgoma da arafris maqnisi aqciebi, riTac sakuTar janmrTelobas ilaxaven mxolod.
– ras ityviT yazaxeTSi mimdinare Setakebebsa da iq ruseTis jarebis Sesvlaze?
– ar vici, ra vTqva, imdenad CaxlarTuli sqemaa, rom aqedan rTuli gasarkvevia, sinamdvileSi ra xdeba iq. TviTon yazaxeTis politikuri liderebis erTmaneTTan urTierToba imdenad qaosuria, rom warmoudgenelia gaarkvio, vin visken ixreba da ra surs. aris kidev sxva versia – gvaxsovs, Tavis droze avRaneTSi Talibebma isev rom miiRes legitimacia, gaCnda kiTxvebi imis Taobaze, ra pozicias daikavebda ruseTi, radgan misTvis miuRebeli aRmoCnda axali Talibebis xelisufleba, miT umetes, rom kanongareSed hyavda isini gamocxadebuli. magaliTad, Tavad Talibebs rom moundeT ruseTSi SeWra (rac ar aris gamoricxuli), maT mouwevT, swored yazaxeTis teritoriaze gavla. iyo eWvi, rom nazarbaevs surda islamis gaZliereba da Tu es moxdeboda, SesaZlebeli iyo, sruliad umtkivneulod daeTmo strategiuli derefani TalibebisTvis, rac ukve saxifaTo realoba iqneboda ruseTisTvis. amitom, Cven jer ar viciT, ruseTs surs sabWoTa teritoriebis aRdgena Tu emzadeba aziur nawilSi jarebis gadaadgilebisTvis. Tuki es bolo versiaa marTali, maSin sakiTxavia, amdeni sisxli ratom daRvara, pirdapir moeSorebina nazarbaevi, magram ruseTi ruseTia da daRvrili sisxli didad ar adardebs, arc sakuTari da arc sxvisi.
– Tuki Crdiloeli mezobeli apirebs sabWoeTisdroindeli teritoriebis dabrunebas, saqarTvelos ramdenad Seexeba es?
– amaze maxsendeba versia, romlis mixedviTac, sabWoTa kavSiri daSala TviTon ruseTma, vinaidan veRar SeZlo da arc undoda 15 respublikis kveba. amas urCevdnen maSindeli analitikosebi, radgan ruseTi mTel sabWoTa sivrces aZlevda rkinas, purs, xe-tyes, madneuls da sxv. es Zalian aZabunebda qveynis ekonomikas. amas davumateb, rom im periodSi, ruseTis mTeli jari musulmanebisgan Sedgeboda, rac uSvebda imis SesaZleblobas, rom kontroli daekarga sabWoeTze da gamxdariyo erT-erTi rigiTi `Zma~. am fonze, Tuki jars da qonebas dakargavda, ratom unda SeenarCunebina ruseTs sabWoTa kavSiri? Tuki maSin marTlac am mizezebiT moxda imperiis rRveva, axla ratom unda aRadginos? miT umetes, ekonomikurad maSin ufro Zlieri iyo ruseTi, vidre axla. ase rom, sabWoeTis aRdgenis versia, seriozulad ar gamoiyureba. miT umetes, Cven vnaxeT belarusTan, somxeTTan Tu afxazeTTan mimarTebaSi ra moxda. afxazebis Txovnis miuxedavad, isini arc ki SeierTa. erTaderTi, yirimi ar daTmo imitom, rom Tavisi teritoriebis movla sWirdeboda. rac Seexeba kiTxvas, `saqarTvelos ra eSveleba~, amas sulac ar sWirdeba sabWoTa kavSiris aRdgena, saqarTvelo isedac cud dReSia, 20% aqvs dakarguli. igive mdgomareobaSia ukrainac. ruseTs orive gamoWerili hyavs, arc surs am ori qveynis mierTeba. rodesac teritoriebis did nawils akontrolebs, Tavisuflad veRar imoqmedebs esa Tu is qveyana.
