,,ნაციონალები” რომ არ დამშვიდდებიან, ყველამ ვიცით, არ შეუძლიათ წყნარად და სტაბილურად თანაცხოვრება”
ირმა ცეცხლაძე 27 48 93 –
mimdinare politikur procesebze, partiebis polarizaciaze, saakaSvilisa da `qarTuli ocnebis~ sinqronizaciaze saubrobs CvenTan interviuSi politologi soso manjaviZe.
– batono soso, saakaSvilis saqarTveloSi Camosvlis Sesaxeb Zalian bevri versia gaJRerda. ras fiqrobT, ratom Caigdo Tavi safrTxeSi?
– marTlac bevri mosazreba gamoiTqva am faqtis Sesaxeb, Tumca ZiriTadi aris is, rom gamrudebuli warmodgena hqonda saqarTveloSi arsebul viTarebaze Tavisive media-saSualebebidan.
– ise daijera, rom arc gadaamowma?
– msgavsi tipis iluziebis Seqmna axasiaTebs adamians, anu ismens da ijerebs imas, risi mosmena da gagebac surs, rac Semdeg gamoixateba daufiqrebel, safrTxis Semcvel moqmedebebSi. yvelafers erTad ki moaqvs mZime Sedegi. msgavsi magaliTebi bevria istoriaSi. cudi ambis momtans Tavsac ki Wridnen. rodesac rusebma oderi gadalaxes da fiurers Seatyobines amis Sesaxeb, imis nacvlad, raime qmedeba ganexorcielebina, ramdenimesaaTiani isteria hqonda. saakaSvilis aq Camosvlis meore mizezia – `Tavsaxuravis~ TamaSebi. viRacas unda saakaSvili damokles maxviliviT ekidos saqarTvelos politikuri sivrcis Tavze, raTa morCili viyoT garkveuli instruqciebis mimarT. aseTi adamianebisTvis saakaSvilis piradi bedi saintereso ar aris, anu imdenad aris maTTvis Rirebuli, ramdenadac SeuZliaT misi gamoiyeneba.
– mere, gamoadgaT?
– ki, gamoadgaT, vinaidan, garkveuli tipis zemoqmedeba namdvilad iqonia saqarTvelos xelisuflebasa da maT Soris, arCevnebis Sedegebzec. saqarTvelos xelisuflebasac garkveul SemTxvevaSi, xels aZlevda eqsprezidentis Camosvla. SesaZloa, ar gegmavda da inspirireba ar mouwyvia, magram TamaSSi rodesac CaerTo, ra Tqma unda, Tavis sasargeblod gamoiyena, anu sakuTari momxreebis konsolidaciisTvis. garda amisa, gasaTvaliswinebelia miSas eqscentriuli xasiaTic da iluziebSi frena. ar unda daviviwyoT misi momxreebis survili, liderisTvis ise warmoeCinaT realoba, rom maTi roli gazviadebuliyo da mis winaSe qulebi daeweraT, miT umetes, rom is dRemde afinansebs maT da garkveul angariSgebas, cxadia, elis. enm-s saakaSvili aqamde miaCnia cocxal RvTaebad da rogor Sekadrebdnen iluziebis damsxvrevas.
– saakaSvilis Camosvlam daaziana Tu uSvela `qarTuli ocnebis~ molodinebs?
– faqtia, rom misma vizitma aSkarad gamoiwvia sazogadoebis polarizeba. momxreebis konsolidacia moxda orive banakSi da orpolusiani darCa saarCevno sivrce, gaxarias efemerul, kometisebur SemoWras da gauCinarebas Tu ar gaviTvaliswinebT.
– ras fiqrobT gaxarias Sesaxeb, mainc visi satelitia, orive politikuri Zala erTmaneTs abralebs.
– Cemi azriT, gaxaria arc erTis sateliti ar aris. Seecada wamoewyo sakuTari TamaSi, Tumca mravali mizezis gamo ar gamouvida. pirvel rigSi imitom, rom politikuri figura ar gaxldaT, is funqcioneria da ar gaaCnia politikuri gamocdileba. meore – yvelafers aqvs Tavisi dro. magaliTad, dro aqvs bavSvis dabadebas. sxvadasxva biologiur arsebebSi, adamiani iqneba, mtredi Tu spilo, garkveuli ritmi aqvs Casaxvas, ganviTarebas, dabadebas. igive etapebi aqvs politikur opizicionerad Camoyalibebas. gaxaria, praqtikulad, xelmZRvanelobda `qarTul ocnebas~, iyo premier-ministri, manamde Sinagan saqmeTa, ekonomikis, ombudsmeni anu Tavis TavSi ganasxeulebda mmarTvel gunds. Semdeg ki, ise uceb alaparakda Tavis saocar mewyvilesTan, mezvriSvilTan erTad, ver mixvdebodi, gaxaria iyo Tu davuSvaT, boboxiZe. anu is ver Camoyalibda, CanasaxSi myofma, ramdenime TviT adre scada dabadeba, ramac, cxadia, ver gaamarTla.
– da Tqven fiqrobT, aRar gamoCndeba politikur sivrceSi?
– ar vici, Tanapartielebi xelovnur inkubaciaSi Tu moaTavseben da xels Seuwyoben mis ganviTarebas, SesaZloa vixiloT ukve Camoyalibebuli opozicioneri. saerTod, qarTul sivrceSi moSlilia opozicioneri politikosis Sefasebis kriteriumebis meqanizmi. aq politikosze msjeloben ara misi codniT, gamocdilebiT, samoqmedo gegmiT Tu qarizmiT, aramed, magaliTad, rogor CaapaWuna Tvali, rogor iCxuba, rogor yviris, ilanZReba da sxva, rac ar aris qveynis winsvla-ganviTarebisTvis xelSemwyobi faqtori.
– ras fiqrobT eqsprezidentis mier xelovnurad Seqmnil aJiotaJze sakuTar SimSilobasa da janmrTelobasTan dakavSirebiT? Tqven TqviT, rom is dgas kanonze maRla – ras gulisxmobdiT?
– is sruli sigiJe, rac moawyves gamoqceulma saakaSvilma, misma momxreebma da sazogadoebis garkveulma nawilma, Sesatania masobrivi fsiqozis anTologiaSi. am adamianebze aranairi mecnieruli argumentebi, faqtebi da biologiuri Taviseburebebis mtkicebulebebi ar moqmedebs. magaliTad, arseboben xvlikebi, romlebsac aqvT gayinvis da sakvebis gareSe gaZlebis unari, 50 dRis Semdeg ki SeuZliaT, bunebrivad aRidginon sasicocxlo procesebi. an gaixseneT daTvebi, romlebic moimarageben sakvebs da gamoizamTreben bunagSi, sadac zamTris ZilSi vardebian. saakaSvilis miTiuri SimSiloba adamianis biologiur SesaZleblobebs gascda. Tanac, rogorc naxeT, mSrali SimSilobis Semdegac ki, SesZlo medgari winaaRmdegobis gaweva, rodesac gldanis me-18 samkurnalo daewesebulebaSi gadahyavdaT. aqac Cans misi zebunebrivi monacemebi, radgan, rigiT mokvdavs, aseT mdgomareobaSi (SimSilobas vgulisxmob) araTu Cxubis, ganZrevis da sawolidan Tavis wamowevis fizikuri SesaZleblobac ki ar aqvs. principSi, arseboben adamianebi, magaliTad iogebi, udabnos berebi, romlebic ar ikvebebian da sul sxva energiebiT sazrdooben. erTi iogi vici, 25 wlidan 85 wlamde araferi uWamia da ganacxada, rom ikvebeba mzis SeunivTebeli energiiT. simarTle giTxraT, maqvs eWvi, rom mixeil saakaSvili ar aris iogi, arc misi Segirdi yofila. verc mzis SeunivTebel energias aqcevs xbos paStetad, rac gamoricxavs mis iogobas. raoden gulsatkenic ar unda iyos am `RvTaebis~ mimdevrebisTvis, miSa Cveulebrivi adamiania, SezRuduli biologiuri monacemebiT, rac amtkicebs, rom misi 50-dRiani SimSiloba fiqcia iyo. ubralod, gasakviria reaqciebi, meti araferi, Torem igive tempebiT, saakaSvili Carlz haideriviT kidev 178 dRes rom iSimSilebs, eWvic ar mepareba.
– misma momxreebma, liderisgan gansxvavebiT, ver SeZles xangrZlivi SimSiloba. . .
– iseT epoqaSi vimyofebiT, sadac piradi cxovrebis damalvac ki SeuZlebelia, ise aris yvela sivrce gadatenili gadamRebi da mosasmeni aparaturiT. zogadad, SimSiloba, nebis gamoxatvis aqtia. Zalian cotas SeuZlia didi xnis ganmavlobaSi SimSili. isic kargad icodnen, is karvebi sus-is TvalTvalis qveS rom iqneboda onlain-reJimSi. rogor gekadrebaT, batono soso, es rogor TqviT Cvenze, demokratiuli saxelmwifo varTo, metyvian, magram me xom ar-afers vamtkiceb, amis gonivruli eWvi maqvs. hoda, rom moSivdaT, verc Wames da verc am Tavgadadebuli aqciis Sedegi naxes, aJiotaJic ar mohyva maT `gmirobas~, rom gamxnevebuliyvnen da. . . maT dabindul gonebaSic SeaRwia saRi azris sinaTlem, Sewyvites SimSiloba da saaxalwlo sufrasTan qarTuli kerZebis mravalferovnebiT datkbnen.
– axla Camoayalibes `miSas seqtori~, romelmac daumorCileblobis jgufebis Seqmna daaanonsa. ras SeZleben enm-is wevrebi da ras moimoqmedebs xelisufleba?
– ooo, saxelia mTavari! Tuki `daumorCileblobis jgufebs~ daarqmeven sakuTari wevrebis Tavyrilobebs, maSin xom miaRweven politikur mizans. . . aqamde, rogorc Cans, swori saxeli ar hqondaT SerCeuli da imitom rCebodnen xelmocarulebi. axla ki axali saxeliT Seuteven `qarTul ocnebas~ da moralurad daangreven. . . Tu ar dagemorCilebian, daingrevi moralurad, aba ra!..
– vadamdeli arCevnebis daniSvnamde enm ar damSviddeba. wava xelisufleba am nabijze Tu arCevnebis gareSe mSvidobian sam wels amjobinebs?
– `nacionalebi~ rom ar damSviddebian, yvelam viciT, ar SeuZliaT wynarad da stabilurad Tanacxovreba da imitom. giJi damSvidebuli ginaxavT damamSvidebeli nemsis gareSe? saerTod, yvela maTi nabiji fsiqikurad daavadebuli adamianebis namoqmedars hgavs. saakaSvilis Camosvlis erT-erTi ZiriTadi Sedegi isic iyo, rom kargad gamoCnda Cveni sazogadoebis moralurad meryevi, aramdgradi saxe. mis Camosvlas politikosTa da analitikosTa wreebSi win uZRoda informacia, miSa Camodis da xelisufleba Seicvlebao . . . moulodnelad, iseTma adamianebma icvales feri da gadabargdnen `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ mxares, rom bevri gakvirvebuli darCa. rodesac miSas Camosvlam ver misca maT mosalodneli Sedegi, isini motyuebulni aRmoCndnen. daiwyes sakuTari qcevis gasamarTlebeli argumentebis Zieba, TiTqos arasworad gavugeT da sxv. zogierTma saakaSvilis lanZRvac ki daiwyo. amis miuxedavad, yvelam dainaxa maTi WeSmariti buneba da saxe. anu gamovlinda Cveni sazogadoebis politikuri elitis nawilis sruli uprincipoba da uzneoba.
– ra nabijs elodebiT `qarTuli ocnebisgan~ saakaSvilTan damokidebulebaSi?
– saerTod, `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ arseboba awyobs `qarTul ocnebas~, radgan sanam iarsebebs `nacionalebis~ winaaRmdeg protesti, manam qveyanaSi realuri konkurentunariani politikuri Zala ver Camoyalibdeba. Sesabamisad, virTxebs rom mCxavana katas daukideben, ise sWirdeba mmarTvel gunds saakaSvili. amitom hyavT sajarod gamokidebuli da eyolebaT manam, sanam amis saWiroeba iqneba. amave dros, dasavleTidanac ar Cans iseTi mxardaWera, rogorzec imedebs amyarebda eqsprezidenti. es arc aris gasakviri, radgan dasavleTs axla sul sxva problemebi aqvs CvenTan mimarTebaSi, damTavrda sakmaod daZabuli molaparakebebis pirveli raundi JenevaSi da saerTod, gaurkvevelia saqarTvelos geopolitikuri momavali. am fonze, saakaSvilis momxreebis yalbi gancxadebebi misi wamebis da janmrTelobis gauaresebis Taobaze imdenad araseriozulia, rom ukve yvela darwmunda – absurdis TeatrTan aqvT saqme da aRarc uRrmavdebian. dasavleTSi daeca miSas mimarT simpaTiebi, radgan ician, realurad rac xdeba igive samkurnalo Tu sasjelaRsrulebis dawesebulebebSi.
– Tu SegiZliaT gaixsenoT, realurad ra xdeboda saakaSvilisdroindel sasjelaRsrulebis dawesebulebebSi?
– Zalian cota adamianma icis, realurad ra xdeboda iq. me var erT-erTi maTgani. es iyo Cveulebrivi teroristuli saxelmwifo, romelSic patimroba, wameba da wamebis SiSi, gaupatiureba da gaupatiurebis SiSi, gamoiyeneboda politikuri interesebisTvis da mosaxleobis dasamorCileblad. yvelam icis informacia, romelic maT Soris, Cemi uSualo monawileobiT gasajarovda cixeebidan. am fonze, rodesac `nacionalebi~ saubroben wamebaze, gaugebaria, ra wamebas gulisxmoben. komediaa, aba ra aris, romelic tragediad iqceva da sabolood farsad yalibdeba.
– ra gzas unda daadges am dros `qarTuli ocneba~?
– keTili inebos da nu eTamaSeba, gaasajaroos miSas SimSilobis realuri kadrebi, raTa aRar darCes aravis kiTxvis niSani. garda amisa, gamoaqveynon is faqtebi, romlebic xelTa aqvT. erTxel da samudamod unda daimsxvres miTi saakaSvilis Sesaxeb. magaliTad, niurnbergis procesze geringi rom gamodioda, ganacxades, `CamoxseniT niRabi gerings~. ai, es unda moxdes saqarTveloSi, rom sabolood dasruldes am avadmyofebis miTebis tiraJireba maT mierve Seqmnil televiziebSi, rac mTavar problemad gadagveqca. rac Seexeba `ocnebas~, misi Secdomebi ar unda iyos mibmuli `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ narativTan, opoziciam mmarTveli gundi unda gaakritikos ise, rogorc imsaxurebs. esaa mTavari, rac bolos da bolos, unda Camoyalibdes saqarTveloSi.

