რამაზ საყვარელიძე: ჩინეთი ახდენს რუსეთის არაოფიციალურ ანექსიას
ირმა ცეცხლაძე 27 48 93 –
politologi ramaz sayvareliZe miiCnevs, rom ruseTs yvelaze naklebad surs ukrainasTan omis dawyeba. igi iaraRis JRaruniT mxolod sakuTari interesebis dakmayofilebas da msoflios xelaxal gadanawilebas iTxovs, sadac hegemonis roli swored mas daekisreba.
eqspertTa erTi nawili miiCnevs, rom konvenciuri omi mainc daiwyeba da saqarTvelos ase Tu ise, mouwevs amaSi CarTva, meore nawili ki amtkicebs, rom mTeli
es speqtakli msxvil moTamaSeebs, igive aSS-s da ruseTs im problemebis gadasaWrelad sWirdebaT, am xnis ganmavlobaSi rom dagrovda msoflioSi da yvela jerze konfliqtebs iwvevs planetis sxvadasxva regionSi.
am Temaze gTavazobT intervius politolog ramaz sayvareliZesTan, romelic sagareos garda, saSinao politikasac ganixilavs da saintereso daskvnebs akeTebs.
– batono ramaz, daiwyebs Tu ara oms ruseTi?
– bevri msjelobs am Temaze, poziciebic sxvadasxva gaxlavT, me eqspertTa im nawils warmovadgen, romelic eWvobs, rom ruseTi oms daiwyebs.
– ase acxadeben, Tumca orive qveyana iaraRdeba da sazRvrebTan Tavmoyrilia sajariso nawilebis STambeWdavi raodenoba.
– es asea, magram ZiriTadi motivi, ris gamoc ruseTma omi unda daiwyos, ar arsebobs. is iTxovs natoSi ar Sevides ukraina da saqarTvelo, hoda arc Sedian, ufro sworad, arc SevyavarT aravis, Zalianac rom gvindodes. cxadia, am kavSirSi Sesvlas sul mcire ori aTeuli weli mainc daayovneben. nato xmamaRla acxadebs, jer ar damdgara amis dro, daicadeT, kidev araerTi weli unda gavides, sanam migiRebTo. ager, axla Tqva baidenma amis Sesaxeb. natos SeiaraRebuli Zalebis sazRvrebTan miaxlovebis safrTxec ruseTs ar emuqreba, amiT vin SeaSinebs, sxva aranairi safrTxec ar Cans ruseTisTvis. omis ra mizezi rCeba Crdiloel imperators, piradad CemTvis, gaugebaria. an davuSvaT, daiwyo brZolebi, Sevida da daipyro ukraina, Semdeg ra unda qnas, rad unda ukrainis dapyroba, amitom xom ar dauSlia sabWoTa kavSiri? me realur omze vsaubrob, Torem ratom aJRarunebs iaraRs ruseTi da ratom aiaraRebs nato ukrainas, es yvelas gvesmis.
– ratom aiaraRebs nato ukrainas, Tuki daTmobs poziciebs, maSin ra unda?
– nato ar acxadebs, ar miviReb da poziciebs davTmobo, es rom Tqvas, imiji Seelaxeba msoflio sazogadoebis TvalSi. ubralod, ambobs, ra vqna, dRes verafriT migiRebT, standartebs ver akmayofilebTo. meti riT migvaniSnos, Tavs mixedeT, sxva gza naxeTo.
– saqarTvelosac igives eubneba?
– ki, saqarTvelosac, Tumca ukrainasTan SedarebiT, romlis xelisufleba Zirfesvianad korumpirebulia, ukeTesi mdgomareoba gvaqvs. ukrainaSi, korufciis garda, ruseTi gavlenis qveS moqceuli politikosebi da Cinovnikebic blomadaa da cxadia, nato ver dauSvebs aseTi struqturis kavSirSi SeSvebas. msgavsi mizezi CvenTan, principSi, ar aris.
– Tqven imedi gaqvT, rom saqarTvelos gzas gauxsnian dasavleTisken?
– ver gauxsnian, radgan Tuki saqarTvelos sakiTxs dadebiTad gadawyveten, egreve dadgeba ukrainis sakiTxi, anu erTmaneTze gadabmuli ori Temaa.
– ruseTi iTxovs, nato dabrundes im sazRvrebSi, romelic 1997 wels ekava, kidev ufro gafarToebaze saubari arcaa.
– SesaZloa, bevri ram moiTxovos ruseTma, moTxovnas win ra udgas, magram sakiTxavia, Seusruleben Tu ara. ramdenadac axla vrceldeba zogadi informacia, faqtia, rom nato istorias ukan ar daabrunebs, ar Secvlis Tavisi cxovrebis wess, romelic Ria karis principiT xorcieldeba da ar ukarnaxebs aravis, Sevidnen Tu ara natos struqturaSi. aqedan gamomdinare, vTvli, ruseTis mTavar moTxovnebs uaryofiTi pasuxi eqneba. magram amave dros, vrceldeba informacia, rom amerikas raRac Tavisi winadadebebis paketi aqvs, rogor daakmayofilos ruseTis uSiSroebis survili. iq sxvadasxva kriteriumia dasaxelebuli – SeiaraRebis, kontrolis da a.S. ruseTisTvis mniSvnelovania miiRos daTmobebi swored im sakiTxebSi, sadac molaparakebebi SesaZlebelia, magaliTad, antisaraketo sistemebis proeqtebSi, rac SeiZleba hqondes natosa da amerikas, es aris maTi programa minimumi, rom axali mainc aRar gakeTdes. me ar vfiqrob, rom maincdamainc Riad apirebs ukrainaze Setevas da Sturms, imitom, rom ra unda moigos, CemTvis gaugebaria. mizani iyo, albaT, rom amerikelebi daesvaT savaWrod magidasTan, Tumca roca adgebian am magididan, sainteresoa, ra Sedegs miviRebT anu ra sqemiT gadanawildeba msoflio. yvelafer amis gaTvaliswinebiT, SemiZlia vTqva erTaderTi – es procesi jer kidev didxans gagrZeldeba.
– patimarma saakaSvilma dado posti, rom Tuki ruseTi daartyams ukrainas, paralelur reJimSi Semova samegreloSic da daikavebs foTis portso.
– es informacia saidan aqvs?
– rogorc Tavad ganacxada – sando wyarosgano.
– hoo, is wyaro cixeSi ver Sevidoda, vinc masTan paemanze dadis, sando wyarod ver CaiTvleba. Tavad zelenski acxadebs xmamaRla, rom ruseTi ar apirebs omis wamowyebas, ar SeSindeTo da amiT cdilobs simSvide SeinarCunos sakuTar qveyanaSi, raTa xalxi panikaSi ar Cavardes. aravis awyobs axla panika, radgan bevri ram xdeba aseT dros, ekonomikuric da socialuric. anu is qveyana, romelsac Ria omis aSkara safrTxe emuqreba, cdilobs, rom Caawynaros sakuTari moqalaqeebi. Cveni yofili prezidenti ki avrcelebs msgavs `feiqks~ im dros, rodesac aq ar SeiniSneba omis aranairi safrTxe da aravin elodeba dartymas ruseTisgan. rogorc xedavT, sazogadoebisgan izolirebuli eqsprezidenti, romelic TiTqos wuxs sakuTari xalxis bedze da cdilobs qveynis gafrTxilebas mosalodneli Tavdasxmis Sesaxeb, sinamdvileSi, yvelafers akeTebs saqarTveloSi panikis, qaosis dasaTesad da areulobisTvis. yvelaze saSineli ki is aris mTel am viTarebaSi, rom mas rigiTi moqalaqeebis sakmaod didi nawili kvers ukravs da beladad, gmirad aRiarebs.
– Tuki marTla Tavs dagvesxmeba ruseTi?
– kargiT, iqneb marTalia is `sando wyaro~ da davuSvaT, marTlac Semovida rusis jari, mainc ra unda gaakeTos saqarTvelom? me Sen getyvi, gzas gadauRobavs, Tofs esvris, Seakavebs Tu. . . gaugebaria. foTis ports daikavebso, rom amtkicebs, es rom sdomoda, manamdec gaakeTebda, vin dauSlida? kai, gvafrTxilebs, zrunavs Cvenze, maSin isic gviTxras, im pirobebSi, Cven rom axla vimyofebiT, ras gvirCevs, ra gzas davadgeT, vis mivmarToT? iqneb gamovuSvaT cixidan da gviSvelos rame? albaT es hqonda CanafiqrSi. ras gaugeb, ise azrovnebs, ver daewevi.
– ara, acxadebs, rusis jari Semova, Cven ki ver gavuwevT winaaRmdegobas da davTmobT samegrelosaco. . .
– gasagebia, amas mxolod da mxolod, wylis amRvrevisTvis laparakobs, rac mosalodnelic iyo. mas mxolod erTaderTi mizani amoZravebs, reitingi ar dakargos momxreebis TvalSi, rac SeiZleba gaaRrmavos daZabuloba Sidapolitikur elitaSi da orpolusianoba – mosaxleobaSi.
– `nacionaluri moZraobis~ fraqciis Tavmjdomare xatia dekanoiZe parlamentSi dabrunebis gadawyvetilebas emxroba da acxadebs, rom partia srulad unda CaerTos saparlamento saqmianobaSi. am sakiTxze jer partias gadawyvetileba ar miuRia, rogor fiqrobT, ra gzas airCevs opozicia – quCis aqciebs Tu sakanonmdeblo organoSi Sesvlas?
– is nawili, romelic parlamentSi Sesvlas Txovs, darwmunda, rom 2012 wlis Semdeg quCis aqciebs aranairi Zala ar gaaCnia, radgan momxreebis mcire nawilic ki ver miiyvana am mizniT gamarTul mitingebze. opoziciis sxva partiebsac ar moswonT es pozicia da sakanonmdeblo organoSi Sesvla urCevniaT. imaT ki, visac aqamde kidev saprotesto aqciebze aqvT gaTvla, gamodis, rom am xnis ganmavlobaSi araferi uswavliaT da isev ise darCebian tyuil molodinebSi. ra Secdomebsac uSvebdnen adre, igive Secdomebs gaimeoreben momavalSic. adamians Secdomis daSvebis didi survili Tu aqvs, verafriT gaaCereb.
– isev gaaqtiurda gaxarias Tema. bolo kviraSi misi partia sakmaod bevrma damfuZnebelma datova am politikuri Zalis `nacmoZraobasTan~ kavSiris braldebiT.
– gaxariam araferi gaakeTa imisTvis, rom eg versia ar gavrcelebuliyo. mogexsenebaT, `qarTuli ocneba~ Tavidanve abralebda gaxarias `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ satelitia, saakaSvilTanaa Sekruli da amitom wavidao, rasac `nacionalebi~ sastikad uaryofdnen. axla dadga moqmedebis dro anu rodesac gaxarias politikurma Zalam unda daafiqsiros pozicia, radgan TviTmmarTvelobebis arCevnebSi misma Tanagundelebma `oqros Sualedis~ dakaveba SeZles. amden xans Cumad iyo, TiTqos mas ar exeboda es yvelaferi, magram sabolood mouwia poziciis dafiqsireba, rasac amden xans faravda. daiwyo ramdenime sakrebuloSi `erTian nacionalur moZraobasTan~ molaparakebebi da damtkicda yvelaferi. cxadia, is xalxi, mis partias rom daudga mxarSi, `qarTul ocnebas~ ar swyalobda, magram `nacionalebis~ mowinaaRmdege iyo. amis gamo, faqtia, isini aRar gaCerdebodnen yofil premierTan, Tavs motyuebulad CaTvlidnen da wavidodnen. sainteresoa isic, rom sakuTari Tanapartielebis wasvlis faqtze aranair komentars ar akeTebs Tavad gaxaria. gasagebia im xalxis pozicia, vinc wavida, magram sruliad gaugebaria gaxarias saqcieli. ra surs piradad mas, jer kidev ar Cans. iqneb Semdeg daakonkretos es yvelaferi da logikurad axsnas jer qveynis pirveli postis datoveba da Semdeg `nacionalebTan~ kavSiri, magram am etapze rame xelCasaWidi ar Cans.
– rogor SeafasebT ruseT-CineT-iranis samkuTxeds, romelic am etapze daupirispirda dasavleTs?
– es cnobili samkuTxedia, romelic didi xania arsebobs gaeros sivrceSi, sinqronulad moZraobs da masSi warmodgenili qveynebi yovelTvis erTmaneTis mxares iWeren. amiT cdiloben hegemoniis damkvidrebas msoflio ZalTa gadanawilebis procesSi. dasavleTTan samkuTxedi namdvilad Sekrulia, magram erTmaneTTan rom aqvT pretenziebi da angariSsworeba mouwevT male, isic faqtia.
– ras gulisxmobT?
– magaliTad, CineTi mizanmimarTulad uSvebs cimbirSi sacxovreblad Tavis uam-rav moqalaqes anu axdens ruseTis araoficialur aneqsias. rodemde gagrZeldeba es procesi, aravin icis. Tu ruseTma rame ar iRona, am tempebiT CineTi Cava uralamde, me Sen getyvi da populaciis simcire daakavebs. interesTa analogiuri dapirispireba bevrganaa. mgoni, iranTanac aqvs ruseTs garkveuli tipis problemebi. amitomac ver aawyves urTierToba. Tundac is rad Rirs, rom ruseTi cdilobs TurqeTis damegobrebas, miT umetes, yarabaRis Semdeg, rasac irani didi sifrTxiliT uyurebs. saerTod, yvelaferi droebiTia am samyaroSi, miT umetes, msgavsi aliansebi. principSi, dasavleTTan am kavSirma SesaZloa Tavi gamoavlinos, magram gaugebaria, riT?
– saomar moqmedebebSi – natos winaaRmdeg?
– gamoricxulia, radgan es sameuli saomar moqmedebebSi erTmaneTs gverdiT ar daudgeba, rac kargad Cans Tundac im frTxil SefasebebSi, axla rom keTdeba. CineTsac da iransac sakmaod myife ekonomikuri mdgomareoba aqvT, rac ar aZlevT dasavleTTan urTierTobis gamwvavebis Sanss. miT umetes, rom maT jer isev aqvT savaWro-ekonomikuri kontaqtebi dasavleTTan, romelze sanqciebis dadebiT bevrs dakargaven, anu Caixsneba da dairRveva ekonomikuri kontraqtebi, rac uzarmazar zians miayenebs maT ekonomikas da ukve zaraliani gaxdeba im samkuTxedSi Tanapartnioroba, romliTac ruseTi garkveulwilad emuqreba dasavleTs.
– CineTi xom wamyvani ekonomikiT iyo cnobili?
– raRac periodSi CineTSi daiwyo ekonomikuri problemebis gamwvaveba, imis miuxedavad, rom sakmaod didxans modioda, rogorc msoflio ekonomikis favoriti. isic saTqmelia, rom CineTi sakuTari ekonomikis problemebis mogvarebas olimpiadas ukavSirebs, xolo Tu omi daiwyo, romel olimpiadazea saubari?! ase rom, faqtia, msgavsi faqtorebi amotivtivdeba da amitom omSi es qveynebi ruseTs naklebad daexmarebian. ekonomikuradac, Tavad gasWirvebiaT da, dids verafers SesTavazeben. arc is unda daviviwyoT, rom Tu vinme vinmes exmareba, amas akeTebs gansazRvruli safasuris gamo, ase rom, sabolood ruseTs mouwevs safasuris gadaxda, Tumca ras mosTxoven sanacvlod, es calke saubris Temaa.
