,,თუკი პუტინი დააპირებს ,,ამოძრავებას” საქართველოს მიმართულებით, მას აქ დასაყრდენი ძალები დასჭირდება”
ირმა ცეცხლაძე 27 48 93 –
amden xans omis daZabul molodinSi myofi msoflio yalyze dadga, orSabaTs ruseTma prezident vladimir putinis gadawyvetilebiT aRiara doneckis da luganskis saxalxo respublikebis damoukidebloba da maTTan megobrobis, TanamSromlobis da ormxrivi daxmarebis Sesaxeb xelSekruleba gaaforma. `maTgan ki, vinc kievi Caigdo xelSi da inarCunebs Zalauflebas, moviTxovT, dauyovnebliv Sewyviton saomari moqmedebebi, winaaRmdeg SemTxvevaSi, sruli pasuxismgebloba sisxlisRvris SesaZlo gagrZelebaze mTlianad ukrainis teritoriaze mmarTveli reJimis sindisze iqneba~, – ganacxada putinma.
am sakiTxze gTavazobT intervius baTumis SoTa rusTavelis saxelmwifo universitetis profesor giorgi masalkinTan (Cawerilia 22 Tebervals).
– rogor SeafasebT ruseT-ukrainis konfliqtis dasasrulis dasawyiss?
– siaxlea, ra Tqma unda, magram mosalodneli siaxle. ruseTma cno donbasis da luganskis `saxalxo respublikebi~ da maTTan dadebul xelSekrulebebSi samxedro TanamSromlobac Caiwereba, yvelaze mniSvnelovania is, rom erToblivad gakontroldeba. ruseTs eqneba sajariso formirebebis oficialurad Seyvanis ufleba egreT wodebul saxalxo respublikebSi. amis Semdeg, nebismier gasrolazec ki, provocirebulic rom iyos, ruseTis jari gadava sapasuxo Setevaze. es aris ruseTis mier dadgmuli grandiozuli speqtaklis mesame aqti – 2008 wels saqarTvelos da 2014 wels – yirimis Semdeg. istoriuli mniSvnelobis es qmedebebi kardinalurad cvlis evropis usafrTxoebis mTel sistemas. win kidev moldovaa – rusulenovani mosaxleobiT dasaxlebuli dneprispireTi (rusis jari axlac dgas iq). albaT iqac daiwyeba samxedro konfliqti. mokled rom vTqvaT, evropa, mTel danarCen samyarosTan erTad, urTulesi gamowvevis winaSea darCenili.
– koleqtiuri dasavleTi sanqciebs uwesebs doneckis da luganskis axlad gamomcxvar respublikebs. es faqti cota ucnaurad ar mogeCvenaT?
– rodesac es sanqciebi vnaxe, simarTle giTxraT, cota ar iyos, `SevSfoTdi~, albaT am dReebSi dauweseben ruseTsac, Torem sasaciloa, tragikuli rom ar iyos.
– ruseTs SeeSindeba am sanqciebis?
– mgoni, ruseTi amas elis da amisTvis mzadaa. marTalia, misi cxovrebis done bevrad Camouvardeba evropuls, magram is maRalteqnologiuri produqcia, romelsac awarmoebs (Zravebi, TviTmfrinavebi da sxva), gauwevs kompensacias. aqve ar dagaviwydeT, rom mas mxarSi udgas CineTi, irani da sxva qveynebi, romlebic mxars uWeren ruseTis kurss da masze dakisrebul sanqciebs naklebad gaiTvaliswineben. aqedan gamomdinare, sanqciebTan dakavSirebiT, `b~ da `g~ gegmebi, Crdilour imperias ukve Semzadebuli eqneba.
– rusuli arxebi gadmoscemdnen, rogor zeimobs donecki da luganski gaTavisuflebas da ruseTis mxridan aRiarebas. am faqts rogor ganmartavT?
– me aspirantura dauswreblad, luganskSi maqvs damTavrebuli. weliwadSi orjer Cavdiodi sesiebze. iq cxovrebis done, ruseTze gacilebiT maRali iyo. doneckSic da luganskSic meSaxteebis dasaxlebebia, aqedan gamomdinare, sasursaTo Tu samrewvelo momarageba uxvad hqondaT, Tan yvelaferi bevrad iafi Rirda. orive es regioni 4 milioni mosaxleobiT, sakmaod did teritoriebs moicavs, Sveicariaze metsac ki. umravlesoba iq rusia. jer eiforiaSi arian, magram male gamofxizldebian im problemebis gamo, romelic dRes aqvs afxazeTs. kerZod, aravin scnobs am respublikebs, am pasportebiT versad gavlen, swavlas ucxoeTSi ver SesZleben.
– principSi, rom ar damorCilebodnen ruseTs, maT mainc vin ras SeekiTxeboda. putini aRar Sevidoda?
– modiT, pirdapir vTqvaT, dRes msoflioSi erTmaneTs ebrZvis ori ufleba: qveynis suvereniteti da TviTgamorkvevis ufleba. dRevandeli politika isea agebuli, rom rac awyobT wamyvan saxelmwifoebs, imiT apelireben. an suverenitets `awvebian~ an TviTgamorkvevis uflebas. aqedan gamomdinare, ver gaarkvev, romelia pirvelxarisxovani da romelia naklebad aucilebeli. orive gaeros yvela dokumentSia Tanabrad gatarebuli.
– ruseTs romeli aZlevs xels?
– ruseTi awyobs `TviTgamorkvevas~. xom xedavT, yirimSi rac moxda, amerikis SeerTebuli Statebi ki mxars uWers qveynebis suverenitetis dacvas. arada, verc erTi saxelmwifo ver Tmobs Tavisi miwis verc erT gojs, radgan es politikuri suicidia. minskis xelSekruleba iTvaliswinebda, rom kievs unda ewarmoebina molaparakebebi luganskis da doneckis mosaxleobasTan, magram yvela xom vxvdebiT, sad miiyvanda ukrainas es `saubrebi~.
– SeiZleba raRac Sedegi ufro mieRoT. . .
– miiRebdnen, Tuki miscemdnen damoukideblobis srul garantiebs da farTo statuss. gamodis, lamis konfederacia unda SeeqmnaT. arc ukraina iyo mzad amisTvis da arc politikuri istebliSmenti, xolo aseT situaciaSi es viTareba didxans ver gagrZeldeboda.
– evrokavSiris vice-prezidentma ukraina daaimeda, rom evropul perspeqtivebs gauxsnian. arafrismTqmel dapirebad xom ar mogeCvenaT?
– mec mgonia, rom es litoni sityvebia. met-naklebad xom viciT meoce saukunis istoria, Tuki erTxel mainc daxuWav Tvals romelime gadacdomaze, mas mohyveba meore, mesame. . . 2008 wlis omi saqarTvelosTan rogorc ki SeirCina ruseTma, mada gaexsna da mihyva nel-nela sakuTari saqmis keTebas. ra sanqciebi dauweses maSin, riT daazarales? arafriT! ra, vaWroba akrZales, molaparakebebs ar awarmoebdnen, mimosvla da vizebi dauxures Tu ra gaakeTes? araferi, gautares, Semdeg yirimi apaties. evropaSi maSinac `aRSfoTdnen-SeSfoTdnen~, magram sxva veraferi iRones. ar Wris es mkacri toni ruseTze, xom unda mixvde. dausjelobis sindroms rac moaqvs, yvelam kargad viciT. ra xdeba axla? axla Tavad aRmoCndnen urTules viTarebaSi.
– ra unda gaakeTos evropam?
– sruliad unda Seicvalos evropis uSiSroebis sistema, ar vici rogor, Znelia amis varaudi. xom xedavT, bolos da bolos, 4 `damoukidebeli respublika~ dafiqsirda evropis rukaze. vgulisxmob oseTs, afxazeTs, donecks da lugansks. ki, Sen ar aRiareb, magram faqtia, rom arsebobs, ukve 5 milionamde mosaxleobiT. amaTac patar-patara sxva saxelmwifoebic Seemateba da. . . simarTle giTxraT, ar minda axla dasavleli politikosebis tyavSi aRmovCnde. gansakuTrebiT, evropelebs vgulisxmob. amerikis SeerTebuli Statebi mainc Sorsaa da, yvelafris miuxedavad, ar daibneva, mainc SeZlebs misTvis saxeiro dividendebis SeZenas am oromtrialSic ki. evropas Zalian gauWirdeba, radgan xelfexSekrulia. gasagebia, rom omi aravis unda. es militaristuli ritorika ruseTSi yovelTvis iyo. gaixseneT, rogor Caatara putinma sakuTari uSiSroebis sabWos sxdoma – esTetika rogori iyo, magida da mimarTvis toni. . . STabeWdileba rCeboda, ruseTis wamyvan pirebs orosani moswavleebiviT eqceoda.
– evropas da ukrainas gamosavali ar dautova. . .
– diax, arc dautovebda. erTaderTi, rac rCebaT, an referendumi Caataron donecksa da luganskSi, gaarkvion, surs Tu ara am ori regionis mosaxleobas damoukidebloba, magram amas ver gauZlebs ukrainis verc erTi politikuri sistema, maSinve CamoiSleba. meore variantia – daicvan gaeros wevris sazRvrebi, rac niSnavs, rom avtomaturad Sedixar ruseTTan samxedro dapirispirebaSi.
– aRiarebis meore dResve acxadebdnen rusul telearxebze, rom gvesvrian ukraineli separatistebio. . .
– yvelas gvaxsovs, ra provokaciebi iyo samxreT oseTSi, sazRvris mcire teritoriaze da aq oseTTan SedarebiT asjer met teritoriasTan gvaqvs saqme. fizikurad vin gaakontrolebs am situacias? am xelSekrulebis Semdeg, romelsac ruseTi dadebs doneckTan da luganskTan, amoqmeddeba misi yvelaze saSiSi punqti samxedro daxmarebaze. `me Semyavs Cemi jarebi damoukidebel respublikebSi, raTa davicva sazRvari~ – morCa, ruseTi amieridan amiT daiwyebs apelirebas.
– principSi, iqneb es iyos ukeTesi gamosavali, radgan agvacilebs globalur oms. . .
– yvelaferi aq rom dasruldes, marTlac SegviZlia, amovisunTqoT, radgan atomur oms agvacila imis miuxedavad, rom miviReT kidev erTi didi gayinuli konfliqti, iseTi, rogoric saqarTveloSic aris da moldovaSic, magram… vai, rom amiT ar dasruldeba. xom iciT, pirvel aqtSi Tu kedelze Tofi hkidia, igi aucileblad gaisvris bolo aqtSi mainc. aq ki imdeni iaraRi, patriotulad ganwyobili, omis molodiniT aRgznebuli sajariso nawilia, rom ase mSvidobianad konfliqts ver daasruleben. isic gasaTvaliswinebelia, rom qveyanaSi, sadac ar aris mdgradi demokratia, mosalodnelia gamosvlebi, gamoxdomebi, ar ici, sad ras unda elodo, vin ras moimoqmedebs da sxva. jerjerobiT konfliqti ar dasrulebula, yvelaferi win gvaqvs.
– fiqrobT, moskovi kievze miitans ieriSs? nuTu marTalia, putins sabWoTa kavSiris aRdgena surso?
– amis Tqmac ki meSinia. modiT, imedi viqonioT, rom am etapze ruseTi dakmayofildeba Tavisi jaris Suagul ukrainaSi dabanakebiT, riTac, aucileblobis SemTxvevaSi, SeZlebs, uceb gadaketos samxreTi. aqve gverdiTaa xarkovi da sxva msxvili dasaxlebebi. kidev vimeoreb, ar mSurs dasavleli politikosebis, merideba Tqma, magram isev vityvi – yvela imkis daTesils. Tuki ambob, rom xelSeuxebelia suvereniteti, rac unda patara qveyana iyos saqarTvelo, ar unda daeSvaT misi teritoriuli mTlianobis rRveva. axla amboben, SevcdiT, wamovegeT provokaciaso, magram faqtia, rom es Secdoma, ufro sworad, Tvalis daxuWva, axla ukve Zvirad ujdebaT da kidev ufro Zvirad daujdebaT meoTxe aqtis ganxorcielebas rom Seudgeba moskovi. imiT, rom dasavleTi ar cnobs afxazeTsa da oseTs, CvenTvis ra icvleba? saxelmwifo teritoriebis 20%-s ver flob, rac uzarmazari tvirTia saqarTvelosTvis. erTxel daxuWe Tvali, meored. . . maSin Tqvi, ki, batono, me Tvals vxuWav ruseTze, amitom Cemi imedi nu geqneba. aba, sanqciebs rom uweseb lugansks da donecks, es ras uSvelis saqmes?!
– mTel am situaciaSi Cven ra gvelis?
– sxvaTa Soris, arc Cveni xelisuflebis mSurs, imitom, rom rTul situaciaSi varT. zogierTi Cemi rusi megobari, romlebic opoziciaSi arian xelisuflebasTan, mweren, rom saqarTveloa rigSi, anu ukrainas gadaxarSavs da mere Cvenc mogvxedavs. saqarTvelo axla amaze unda saubrobdes, es unda iyos ganxilvis nomer pirveli Tema. CarTav centralur televiziebs da mixvdebi, ra Rrma WaobSi vimyofebiT. raze laparakoben, ras ganixilaven, raze ixarjeba dro, energia, pirdapir gasaocaria. me vicnob normalur qarTvel politikur eqspertebs, romlebic sagareo saqmeebze muSaoben, minimum 10 kaci mainc gvyavs aseTi. arc erTi ar Cans ekranze. televiziiT dabali donis `profesionalizmis~ angaJireba erovnuli problema gaxda. saerTaSoriso situaciebs saerTod ar ganixilaven, mokled mimoixilaven, ra Tqva baidenma, ra ganacxada putinma, Semdeg gadadian Sida politikaze da opoziciis yvela saprotesto aqcias safuZvlianad aSuqeben. . . ar unda Tqvan, Tavad ras fiqroben, ras apireben, rogor emzadebian, ra mdgomareobaSia qveyana? yvelaferi Semoifargleba litoni sityvebiT, royio lozungebiT, dapirebebiT da. . .
– batono giorgi, irma inaSvilis da misi Tanamoazreebis werilze ras ityviT, putins rom aaxla?
– ooo, Zalian seriozuli werilia. Tuki putini daapirebs `amoZravebas~ saqarTvelos mimarTulebiT, mas aq dasayrdeni Zalebi dasWirdeba. marTalia, am ustaris xelmomwerebis ukan maincdamainc didi Zala ar dgas, magram es yvelaferi daZabulobis am etapze damafiqrebelia. ai, Tundac es sakiTxi farTod ar unda gaeSuqebinaT?! gaaJReres ramdenime winadadebiT da daiviwyes. igive irma unda moiwvio televiziaSi da aTqmevino, ratom wers, ras fiqrobs. Tu uars ityoda teleeTerze, Tarxan-mouravisTvis eTqvaT, is yvelgan midis. . . anu es werilic SeirCina qarTulma sazogadoebam. unda gavacnobieroT, rom akvariumSi varT, sadac dacuraven didi da patara Tevzebi. didebSi moiazreba aSS, ruseTi, CineTi. maT moyvebaT birTvuli inglisi, safrangeTi da ekonomikis gigantebi – germania, iaponia. eseni ganageben msoflios axla da ganagebdnen adre. yovelTvis iyo ase. Zala ganagebda samyaros. Cven axla realur politikaSi vcxovrobT, romantizmze agebuli politika ukve 30-40 welia ar muSaobs. rogorc vTqviT, ruseTi aris erT-erTi didi Tevzi, romelsac aqvs imperiuli interesebi. pirdapir vityvi, arc momerideba, Cven rom vyofiliyaviT dRes imperia, Cvenc gveqneboda zraxvebi. zog qarTvels axlac aqvs SemorCenili me-12 saukunis azrovneba da im teritoriebzec ki aqvs pretenzia, romelic arc maSin gvekuTnoda Cven, ubarlod, Zlierebi viyaviT da davipyariT. anu, esaa yvela imperiis logika. amitom, unda vuyuroT rusul gadacemebs, marTalia, saSineli gadacemebia, stumars iwveven da Semdeg Tavze `axuraven~ yvelafers, magram iq Riad amboben, ras apireben, aravisi eridebaT da arc faraven rames. unda usmino, gaaanalizo, amoikiTxo. jer ideologiuri Sturmi midis, rasac Semdeg realurad axorcieleben. amis kvaldakval unda Catardes daxurul formatSi konferenciebi, samuSao Sexvedrebi, analitikuri gadacemebi da sxva, magram iseTi STabeWdileba mrCeba, rom amiT aravinaa dainteresebuli.
