,,თუკი ბირთვული ომი დაიწყო, ეს ინტერვიუც ვეღარ მოხვდება გაზეთში და ვეღარც ჩვენი ოპტიმიზმი ნახავს დღის სინათლეს”
მარიამ ხითარიშვილი 27 48 93 –
aWaris umaRlesi sabWos wevri, istoriis mecnierebaT doqtori irakli CavleiSvili saubrobs `aWarasTan~ ruseT-ukrainis omze, mis Sedegebze rogorc evropisTvis, ise saqarTvelosTvis. rogorc man aRniSna, Tuki es interviu naxavs dRis sinaTles, gamodis, ruseTs birTvuli omi ar wamouwyia da kacobrioba gadaCa.
– konfliqtis saTaveebs rom davubrundeT, vaxsenoT doneckis da luganskis olqebi, romelic ruseTma saxalxo respublikebad gamoacxada.
– es ar iyo ruseTisTvis ucxo, pirveli dartyma Cven miviReT. 2008 wels viwvnieT is ubedureba, rasac ruseTTan omi hqvia. Semdeg 2014-Si moxda yirimis aneqsia, wels ki doneckis da luganskis regionebic waiRo. msoflioSi aravin eloda, maT Soris arc me, rom ruseTi wavidoda ase Sors da gaSlida farTomasStabian fronts ukrainis winaaRmdeg. imis miuxedavad, rom Tavad saxelwodebas alamazeben da specoperaciad naTlaven, Tamamad SeiZleba iTqvas, rom es aris seriozuli omi evropis centrSi, romlis fronti 2500-3000 km-zea gaSlili. Tqven am dReebSi mTxoveT interviu, romlis gadadeba gadavwyviteT gazeTis gamoSvebis specifikidan gamomdinare, radgan SesaZlebeli iyo, saerTaSoriso viTareba Secvliliyo. asec moxda – Seicvala ara mxolod viTareba, aramed mTeli msoflio. sxvanairebi gaxdnen koleqtiuri dasavleTis liderebic da rigiTi moqalaqeebic. ukrainis SemarTebam, vaJkacobam da Tavganwirvam iseTi magaliTi misca kacobriobas, rom ukve sul sxvagvarad Setrialda msoflios mentaliteti.
– arc putins egona, msgavs winaaRmdegobas Tu waawydeboda.
– putinis TavSi ra ixarSeboda, marTali giTxraT, rTuli gasarkvevia, miT umetes, mTeli am xnis ganmavlobaSi evropis liderebs da mTel samyaros aSantaJebs omiT da birTvuli iaraRiT. `giJi var da rasac minda imas gavakeTeb~, ar acxadebda, magram sul migvaniSnebda. samwuxarod, putins gasdioda kidec es pozicia, radgan bevri evropis qveynis xelmZRvaneli, igive sarkozi, merkeli, 2008 wels mtkiced rom damdgariyvnen da saqarTvelo da ukraina mieRoT natoSi, dRes es globaluri katastrofa ar iqneboda. dasanania, rom yvelaze kritikul drosac ki isini loialobas iCendnen moskovis mimarT sakuTari keTildReobis gamo. rac miviReT, gansakuTrebiT mkafiod swored axla gamoCnda. yvela vxedavT, rad ujdeba planetas TavaSvebuli ruseTis gamoxdomebi.
– putinma sabolood gadawyvita Tavis mogiJianeba da birTvuli omiT ukve seriozulad daimuqra. . .
– diax, dRes swored birTvuli katastrofis zRvarze dgas msoflio, magram Tuki amas gamovricxavT, yvelaferi sasikeTod damTavrdeba. me optimisturad vuyureb am ambavs da, minda giTxraT, ase imedianad cxovrebaSi ar vyofilvar. axla yvelaze axlos vdgavarT evrokavSirsa da natosTan. faqtobrivad, SesaZlebelia, movlenebi ise ganviTardes, rom putinis reJimi mcire xanSi dasruldes da saqarTvelom, rogorc damoukidebelma qveyanam, sakuTari teritoriebiT, erTxel da samudamod CaisunTqos is Tavisuflebis haeri, rasac saukuneebis ganmavlobaSi elodnen Cveni winaprebi.
– ra gaZlevT am imedis safuZvels?
– Tu am situacias ganvixilavT istoriul rakursSi, ruseTis imperatorebi pavle, aleqsandre, nikolozi ojaxiT, lenini, stalini, andropovi bunebrivi sikvdiliT ar momkvdaran – Tavisianebma mouRes bolo da Tu evrosasamarTlos gadaurCa putini, aseve daamTavrebs, amaSi Rrmad var darwmunebuli, an moxdeba misi likvidireba an CamoaSoreben xelisuflebas. kvira daiwyo da ruseTi gacilebiT mZimed igrZnobs im sanqciebs, romlebic mis winaaRmdeg SemoiRo mTelma samyarom. Tqven warmoidgineT, civilizebuli kacobriobis mxares dadga avRaneTic da CineTic, romlis didi imedi hqonda putins. Cinelebma gamoucxades, rom ase gagrZeleba aRar SeiZleba da uars eubnebian yovelgvar urTierTobaze am giJs. qarTuli andaza maxsendeba: giJi miuSvi nebasa, TviT Seeyreba snebasa. mTeli msoflio fexzea damdgari da darwmunebuli var, is dasasruli, zemoT rom vaxsene, Sors aRar aris.
– batono irakli, isev da isev arsebobs birTvuli omis SiSi. . .
– ukve giTxariT, gamovricxoT es momenti, arc ise giJebi arian rusebi, miT umetes, Cvens msjelobas azri ar aqvs. Tuki birTvuli omi daiwyo, es interviuc veRar moxvdeba gazeTSi da veRarc Cveni optimizmi naxavs dRis sinaTles.
– maSin isev imeds davubrundeT. ramden xans gagrZeldeba omi?
– rac unda sisxlismRvreli da xangrZlivi iyos nebismieri omi, adre Tu gvian kapitulaciiT, dazavebiT an xelSekrulebebis dadebiT mTavrdeba. didi imedi maqvs, rom ukrainelebi kapitulacias araviTar SemTxvevaSi ar daTanxmdebian. meore msoflio omis dros 9 milioni ukrainelia daRupuli, radgan ZiriTadi saomari moqmedebebi swored maT teritoriaze mimdinareobda. maSin es xalxi ar Sedrka. gaixseneT `benderovci~, romlebsac komunistebi augad moixseniebdnen. es xalxi ebrZoda ara mxolod faSistur germanias, aramed sabWoTa ruseTsac. 1955 wlamde isini tyidan ar gamosulan da stalinis sikvdilamde iaraRs ar yridnen. iciT, bolo partizani romel wels gamovida tyidan? 1991 wels – moxucebulma partizanma gaigo, rom ukraina gaxda Tavsufali da mxolod amis Semdeg Sewyvita brZola. aseT xalxs ebrZvis dRes ruseTi da ramdeni tankic unda Sevides erT qalaqSi, darwmunebuli iyaviT, rom veravin daipyrobs, iq sxva mentaliteti da sxva realiebia. ukrainelebi sxva xalxia, iseve rogorc Cven – qarTvelebi.
– rogori varT Cven?
– 2008 wels omi rom daiwyo, Cemi 20 da 21 wlis Svilebi saomrad wavidnen. arasdros damaviwydeba is dRe – dedamisma zurgCanTaSi sagzali Cauwyo da me radenime WiqiT gza davuloce. ubralo proceduraa, magram savaldebulo da aucilebeli. isini cocxali dabrundnen, yvelas Svilebi – vera. Tu saWiro darCa, imaTi vali gadasaxdelia. amasobaSi mesamec wamoizarda, rac maxarebs. aseTebi varT… verasodes veguebodiT verc erT dampyrobels da imitom movediT dRemde. Segueba niSnavs ganadgurebas. amitom vTvli, rom Cveni wvlilic aris samyaros SecvlaSi. gaxsovT, erTxel SevardnaZes uTxres berlinis kedelze: erTma qarTvelma germania orad gayo, meorem gaaerTianao. SevardnaZec ar daibna: ho, qarTvelebis gareSe msoflioSi araferi xdebao. axlac igive ambavia – ukraina da saqarTvelo, es ori qveyana aris mesame msoflio omis yofna-aryofnis zRvarze. Tu katalizatoris bedi gvarguna RmerTma, Rirseulad vzidoT tvirTi. aq mxolod saqarTvelos damoukidebloba ki ara, kacobriobis gadarCenis sakiTxi wydeba. Tuki birTvuli omi daiwyeba, winaprebiviT vaJkacurad SevegeboT sikvdils, magram darwmunebuli var, aqamde ar miva saqme, piriqiT, axla yvelaze axlos varT im nanatr dResTan, rodesac saqarTvelo gaxdeba evrokavSiris da natos wevri. sul vocnebobdi, am dRes movswrebodi.
– kidev raze ocnebobdiT, batono irakli, da ra agixdaT?
– 1978 wels, `respublikuri partia~ rom Seiqmna, vocnebobdi sabWoTa kavSiris dangrevaze da. . . moveswari. msgavsi ram TiTebze CamosaTvlel kacs Tu warmoedgina maSin. 9 aprilma Seuwyo xeli am maxinji wyobis daSlas, Cven sisxli davRvareT amisTvis. mTeli Cveni istoria progresisken, evropisken svlaa, ris gamoc sisxlis Rvrac gviwevda da gviwevs. amas veravin SeaCerebs, sanam kacobrioba iqneba dedamiwaze. `pirveli evropelebi~ Semovidnen saqarTveloSi, aq dasaxldnen da mas Semdeg daiwyo Cveni svla progresisken. sxva araferi gvsurda da gvsurs axlac – viyoT evropuli ojaxis mSvidobiani, erTguli wevrebi. am omma saerTod Secvala samyaro, moxda ara mxolod evropis msoflio integracia, kacobrioba dairazma erTi urCxulis winaaRmdeg. albaT, uyureT, rogor uangarod xvdebian ukrainel ltolvilebs poloneTis, rumineTis, CexeTis da sxva sazRvrebze. yvela mzadaa, kera da puri gauyos am mamac adamianebs, romlebsac ojaxebi daungries, axloblebi dauxoces.
– zelenski cdilobs saerTaSoriso legionis mobilizebas. . .
– diax, motivacia imdenad gaizarda, rom bevri Caewereba am legionSi. yvela is adamiani aiRebs xelSi iaraRs, visac surs normaluri, civilizebuli cxovreba da demokratia. 43 milionia ukrainis mosaxleoba, ase rom, adamianuri resursebiT ZaluZT moskovTan gamklaveba, magram aq saubari iyo SeiaraRebaze. evropis qveynebidan nato sakmaris iaraRs awvdis ukrainas, xolo brZolis unari am vaJkac xalxs arasodes aklda. aqedan gamomdinare, rac ufro gaiweleba droSi, ufro moaxlovdeba putinis reJimis katastrofa. erTxel da samudamod, albaT, rusma xalxmac unda igrZnos im Tavisuflebis surneli, riTac sunTqavs dasavleTis samyaro. uzarmazari resursi da teritoriebi aqvs ruseTs, magram xalxi amas ver iyenebs, radgan sakuTari moqalaqeebi hyavs putins damonebuli. ruseTs rusi jariskacebic arafrad uRirs. xom xedavT, jarebi krematoriumebiT gadaadgildebian. 21-saukuneSi es aris warmoudgeneli veluroba. jariskacs aqvs sakuTari Rirseba, Tuki daiRupeba, samSobloSi damarxvis ufleba xom ar unda daukargo?! rodesac borblebze Semdgar krematoriums gagayoleben, gamodis, sazarbazne xorci xar mxolod. . . warmoudgeneli sazizRobaa, amazrzenia. mxolod es faqti rogor axasiaTebs kremls, Tavadac xvdebiT. dRevandeli cifruli teqnologiebis dros araferi imaleba, amitom gamJRavnda putinis es gamogoneba, romelic dedas Svilis saflavs arTmevs, Svili ver daitirebs mamas. axla pirdapir eTerSi vuyurebT brZolebs, vxedavT, rogor klaven bavSvebs, qalebs, moxucebs, rogor afeTqeben sabavSvo baRebs, skolebs, saxlebs. . . veraferi daimaleba!
– putinis impiCmentze ras ityviT?
– zustad amas vambobdi, istoria rom moviyvane mowmed, misianebi moklaven putins, Tuki darCa iq saRi azris adamiani, uzrunvelyofs mis likvidacias. Tumca me ar minda rom ase moxdes, minda warsdges haagis sasamarTlos winaSe, pasuxi agos, rac dauSava msoflios da saqarTvelos, im qarTvel biWebs, mSvidobian mosaxleobas. . . me Cemi angariSi maqvs putinTan. evropa da ukraina Tavisas ityvis da gaarkvevs, magram iqamde ver movisveneb, sanam putini ar dajdeba sabraldebo skamze da ar amoyofs Tavs evropul cixeSi. esaa Cemi mizani. ar minda am qveynidan am procesis naxvis gareSe wavide. minda iseve daisajos, rogorc Tavis droze miloSeviCi da misi damqaSebi im genocidisTvis, rasac mezobel xalxs uwyobdnen.
– radikaluri opozicia mouwodebs xalxs afxazeTisken. . .
– Tu ukraina gaimarjvebs, afxazeTic, oseTic dalagdeba molaparakebiT da dialogiT. afxazebma Zalian kargad dainaxes, ra xdeba dRes samyaroSi da maTi ocdaaTwliani damoukidebloba riT damTavrda: gaCanagebiT, siRaribiT, izolaciiT. maTi adgili yovelTvis iyo da axlac aris saqarTveloSi, xolo saqarTvelos adgili – evropaSi.
– iqneb ar undaT evropa?
– evropaSi aRar aris sazRvrebi. arc saqarTvelos eqneba sazRvrebi e.w. afxazeTis da oseTis respublikebTan, Tanac maT eqnebaT yvela is ufleba, riTac ukve sargebloben qarTvelebi. Tuki saukuneebis ganmavlobaSi vaxerxebdiT Tanacxovrebas, axlac ar gagviWirdeba da movaxerxebT. Cven kargad viciT erTmaneTis fasi, miT umetes, rom vimyofebiT naTesaur kavSirSi. avirieT maSin, rodesac rusi gamoCnda kavkasiaSi, mas Semdeg daiwyo SuRli, boRma da sazRvrebis gavleba, Torem Cven Sinagani sazRvari arasodes gvqonia Cvens moZme xalxTan.
– rogor SeafasebT mTavrobis pozicias ruseT-ukrainis omTan dakavSirebiT?
– saqarTvelom didi wvlili Seitana msoflio civilizaciaSi rogorc istoriulad, ise dRevandeli dRiTac. igive ukrainasTan mimarTebaSi – Cveni meomrebi dResac ibrZvian iq, dganan medgrad. 120 aTasi qarTveli meomaria daRupuli yirimSi, ukrainis miwas arian mibarebuli. rom waxvideT sevastopolSi, yirimSi, savsea qarTvelebis saflavebiT. rac Seexeba amJamindel mdgomareobas, pasuxi kargad mogexsenebaT – Rirseba sifrTxileSi ar unda agverios. aq aris erTi momenti – momavali Taobebi gansjian yvelafers da gamoCndeba, vin idga WeSmaritebis mxares. axla ki unda gavarkvioT, ra gvinda Cven. Cven davibadeT kolonialur qveyanaSi da ukve Semdeg movipoveT Tavisufleba, magram Tavisuflebis fasi ufro kargad ician Cvenma Svilebma. axalgazrdebma yoymanis gareSe, iniciativiT da nebiT gamoxates sakuTari pozicia, gverdSi daudgnen ukrainelebs, riTac ganacxades: Cven gvinda evropuli saxli, gvinda nato, usafrTxo cxovreba, swavla, demokratia. axalgazrdebma Tavad gaakeTes arCevani, arc erTi partia ar Rebulobda maT mobilizebaSi monawileobas, aravis ukarnaxia, rogor moqceuliyvnen da arc propaganda-agitacia dasWirdaT. es adamianebi ar fiqsirdebodnen politikur mitingebze, arc partiul gawev-gamowevaSi monawileobdnen. gvegona, rom sakuTari samyarodan arc ixedebodnen, magram rogorc ki gaCnda Tavisuflebis da evropis dakargvis safrTxe, maSinve gareT gamovidnen da dadgnen iq, sadac kacobrioba, civilizacia dgas. aba, gabedos dRes vinmem da ruseTisken mouwodos xalxs, daufiqreblad gauswordebian, msgavs Temaze saubarsac ki ver eRirseba veravin. magram arc is dagaviwydeT: `zogjer Tqma sjobs araTqmasa, zogjer TqmiTac daSavdebis~. ar minda mtrebi da moRalateebi veZebo romelime partiaSi. Tuki mgavsi gvyavs, maSin rad minda politika, ra saxelmwifos vaSenebT? TiTo-orola gamogvereva, viciT es, magram maT sakuTari Svilebi mohkiTxaven, sazogadoeba izolaciaSi moaqcevs, Temidan moikveTs. amitom vambob, nu veZebT mtrebs erTmaneTSi, anu opozicia ar unda xedavdes mters xelisuflebaSi da arc xelisufleba – opoziciaSi. mxolod mas Semdeg SevdgebiT erad, rodesac am rubikons gadavlaxavT. es dro arc ise Sorsaa, ager, gadaRma kviraSi. . . .
Cawerilia 27 Tebervals
