ილია ვერძაძე: რუსეთიდან ათწლეულების განმავლობაში მომდინარე ბოროტებას ერთხელ და სამუდამოდ უნდა დაესვას წერტილი
მარიამ ხითარიშვილი 27 48 93 –
ruseT-ukrainis omma farda axada kacobriobis agresorad Seracxuli putinis daundoblobas, koleqtiuri dasavleTi gaerTianda da Zalisxmevas ar iSurebs Crdilouri imperiis dasasusteblad. aqamde uprecedento movlenebis momswre gavxdiT, jer erTi, dasavleTma iaraRi miawoda arawevr qveyanas da meorec, daCqarebuli tempebiT ganixileba ukrainisTvis evrokavSiris wevrobis kandidatis statusis miniWebis sakiTxi. am procesSi CaerTo saqarTveloc, radgan Tavis droze viwvnieT ruseTis agresia, romelic dausjeli darCa, Cven ki teritoriebis 20% davkargeT.
gTavazobT intervius aWaris umaRlesi sabWos deputat ilia verZaZesTan, romelic saubrobs perspeqtivebsa da qveynis mimarT opoziciis mavneblur rolze saerTaSoriso masStabiT.
– rogor SeafasebT ruseT-ukrainis oms?
– es aris danaSuli ara mxolod ukraineli xalxis, sruliad kacobriobis winaSe. es aris ruseTis meTauris araadekvaturi qmedeba, romelic mimarTulia msoflios civilizaciis da demokratiis gasanadgureblad. ruseTis agresia araerT negatiur konteqstSi SeiZleba ganvixiloT, magram mTavari isaa, rom man xelyo damoukidebeli qveynis suvereniteti da axla mimdinareobs urTulesi, uTanasworo brZolebi uzarmazari frontis yvela ubanze.
– rogor fiqrobT, putini eloda ukrainis aseT medgar winaaRmdegobas?
– simarTle giTxraT, sul ar mainteresebs, ras eloda putini, me mainteresebs saerTaSoriso winaaRmdegoba putinis mimarT, ukrainis brZolisunarianoba da gamZleoba, radgan es boroteba erTxel da samudamod unda damTavrdes msoflioSi da samudamod gaeces sakadrisi pasuxi agresorebs ruseTis dRevandeli politikuri xelmZRvanelobis saxiT. Tumca faqtia, rom putini aseT winaaRmdegobas ar eloda, isic faqtia, rom misi uZlevelobis miTi, riTac amden xans apelirebda mravali misi motrfiale, daimsxvra.
– fiqrobT, rom putini ukve daZleulia?
– rac unda gaaaTmagos Zalisxmeva da lokalur mizans miaRwios, saerTaSoriso sazogadoebam aCvena, ras niSnavs civilizebuli samyaros konsolidacia da dapirispireba, Tu rogor isjeba is, vinc SebRalavs adamianis uflebebsa da Tavisuflebas, vinc xelyofs qveynis suverenitets da Seecdeba sxva erebis ganadgurebas. yvelafer amas Tu gavaanalizebT, ramdeni brZolac unda moigos drois raRac monakveTebSi, gasagebi gaxdeba, rom ruseTs ar aqvs am omSi gamarjvebis Sansi.
– vfiqrob, ara mxolod putini, aravin eloda ukrainis aseT Tavganwirul winaaRmdegobas. TavisuflebisTvis daRvrilma sisxlma koleqtiuri dasavleTic gamoaRviZa, ruseTis winaSe SiSi daaZlevina da aqamde uprecedento daxmareba gaawevina.
– ar minda, es pauza, yvela rom ganvicdidiT, SiSiT avxsna. vfiqrob, aq sul sxva raRac iyo, vgulisxmob politikuri diplomatiis raRac etapze SeCerebas, romelic gare TvalisTvis gayinulia, magram qvedinebebiT aregulirebs im sakiTxebs, romelic ar aris gankuTvnili gasajaroebisTvis. biurokratia axasiaTebs iseT bumberaz saxelmwifos, rogoric amerikis SeerTebul Statebia da iseT konglomerats, rogoric evrokavSiria, magram Tu akrifa inercia, piriqiT, Zalian swrafad da yovlismomcvelad muSaobs. axla swored msgavs procesebTan gvaqvs saqme. im demokratiuli berketebis da meqanizmebis amuSavebisTvis, romelic icavs adamianebs da saxelmwifoebs, garkveuli vadebia saWiro. yvela qveyana sakuTar riskebs afasebs da akeTebs prognozebs. aravin gaswiravs sakuTar saxelmwifos da rodesac gadafasebis momenti dadgeba, rac unda gaiwelos droSi, mTavari mainc Sedegia, romelic yvela ganzomilebaSi gaamarTlebs zesaxelmwifoebis da saerTaSoriso kavSirebis Tu misiebis gadawyvetilebebs. aq saubaria mizanSewonilobasa da erTian qmedebebze.
– is, rac dRes namdvilad aklia Cvens politikur speqtrs. . .
– diax, minda am sakiTxzec gavamaxvilo mkiTxvelis yuradReba, vgulisxmob im demagogias da sibinZures, rasac dRes xelisuflebis misamarTiT kadrulobs Cveni radikaluri opozicia. zemoT xsenebul, erTiani qmedebebis konteqstSi Zalian droulad da kargad Cajda saqarTvelo, rac aRniSna kidec aSS-is elCma da mravalma ucxoelma diplomatma. am konteqsts uamravi mimarTuleba aqvs. maT Soris mniSvnelovan sakiTxebze kenWisyra evrosabWoSi ruseTisTvis wevrobis SeCerebasTan dakavSirebiT, Semdeg – gaeroSi rezoluciis mxardaWera ruseTis winaaRmdeg, aqtivobebis ganxorcieleba ltolvilebTan mimarTebaSi, maTi miReba, gansaxleba, humanitaruli daxmareba da bevri sxva ram.
– opozicia Tavs daesxa xelisuflebas, romelmac sanqciebi ar dauwesa ruseTs. . .
– rac Seexeba am nawils, rasac demagogiurad amaxinjeben, avrceleben da araswor interpretacias aZleven, calke saubris Temaa. sanqciebi qmediTi unda iyos. evropa da sxva saxelmwifoebi ras acxadeben? rom ar Seuwyoben xels im teqnologiebis miwodebaSi, romelsac ruseTi iyenebs samxedro agresiis dros. ar miscemen transports gadaadgilebis saSualebas, yovelmxriv SeuSlian xels omis warmoebas. kulturis da sportis muSakebmac gancxadeba im mimarTulebiT gaakeTes, rom izolirdebian maTive rusi kolegebisgan, romlebic mxars uWeren da amarTleben agresias ukrainis winaaRmdeg. rogorc xedavT, yvela gancxadebis konteqsti exeba agresiis, omis SeCerebas. is unda moqmedebdes putinis xelisuflebaze, rom gadaafiqrebinos danaSaulis gagrZeleba kacobriobis winaaRmdeg, daaxevinos ukan. sazogadoeba unda marTavdes am process da ara SeSinebuli adamianebi. igive ruseTSic bevrma gabeda putinis diqtaturis winaaRmdeg gamosvla, rac didi gmirobaa Cemi azriT. axla msgavsi siTamame nebisyofis udidesi daZabvisa da Tavganwirvis tolfasia. situaciisadmi racionaluri midgomis unari ar unda davkargoT, sibinZureSi ar unda gadavideT, roca saomari moqmedebebia da roca msoflio omis winaSe dgas kacobrioba, roca ukrainaSi eric da beric ibrZvis, rodesac qalebi, bavSvebi, moxucebi iRupebian, magram mainc ar ixeven ukan, cota sxva ganzomilebaSi unda viazrovnoT da vimoqmedoT. gavrcelda informacia, TiTqos rusebi amzadeben `feiks~, rom prezidenti danebda. . . rogor ggoniaT, ar gaiSifreba, rom es sicruea? gaiSifreba, magram imas imedovneben, rom sadRac sardafSi SeyuJuli moqalaqe, jariskaci SemTxveviT rom naxavs amas, daiwyeba dezorganizacia da areulobis marcvali Tavis rols Seasrulebs. opoziciac analogiurad iqceva. aba, sxvas ras emsaxureba is sainformacio nakadi, romlis meSveobiT cdiloben, Cveni qmedebebi gaaukuRmarTon an sul sxva konteqstSi miawodon xalxs. . . rogor SeiZleba omis provocirebaze waxvide, xalxis emociebze iTamaSo, oRondac viwro partiuli interesebi daikmayofilo?!
– ras gulisxmobT?
– xelisuflebis mier ruseTis agresiis dagmobasTan dakavSirebiT agorebul protests. Turme Cveni gancxadebebi da qmedebebi sakmarisad ar asaxavs protests moskovis qmedebebze, mxardaWeras saerTaSoriso sazogadoebasTan erTad ukrainisadmi, anu gviwuneben nebismier gancxadebas, miaCniaT, rom swored ise unda vilaparakoT da im teqstiT vweroT gancxadebebi, romelsac Tavad SegvirCeven. es yvelaferi erTianad unda ganvixiloT da miviRoT saboloo gadawyvetileba. amaSi mainc mivbaZoT msoflios, romelmac ukve daafiqsira, rom Zala erTobaSia. gaxsovT, albaT, 2008 wels opoziciam moratoriumi gamoacxada. maSin arc `qarTuli ocneba~ iyo da arc me gaxldiT politikaSi, magram mimaCnia, rom sworad moiqca imis miuxedavad, rom vis ar braldeboda omis dawyeba da ramdeni sadavo sakiTxi iyo gasarkvevi xelisuflebis irgvliv. ra moxda axla? amJamindeli opozicia yvela mxriv cdilobs yvela faqti, yvela qmedeba damaxinjebuli formiT warudginos ara mxolod sakuTar xalxs, aramed mTel msoflios. Sida bazarze ki ara, saerTaSoriso bazarze gaaqvT sakuTari xelisuflebis maTive SeTxzuli negativi. arada, mTavrobis gnebavT – klasikuri, gnebavT – saerTaSoriso ena, yvelaferi evrokavSirTan erTian konteqstSi jdeba. isic ki, rom aqtiuri sanqciebis nawils, israelis, TurqeTis, azerbaijanis, moldovis msgavsad, verc Cven vawesebT, miT umetes, rom zemoCamoTvlili saxelmwifoebisgan gansxvavebiT, araviTari datvirTva Cven mier gatarebul akrZalvebs ar eqneboda, iseT uaryofiT WrilSi warmoadgines, imdenad damamcirebeli gamoTqmebiT `Seamkes~, arc ki vici, rbilad rom vTqvaT, rogor ar SercxvaT.
– ukrainis elCis gawvevis Tema?
– xom mousmineT, rogori gakvirvebuli gaxldaT Tavad elCi. ra argaSveba, ra TviTmfrinavi, ra moxaliseebi, saerTod ar yofila laparaki amazeo. ubralod, ar yofila SeTanxmebuli da dispetCerma es kiTxvebi dasvao. . . xedavT, ras akeTeben? informacias ise awvdian mTeli qveynis mosaxleobas, rom Semdeg Tavis marTlebis reJimSi unda gasce pasuxi yvelas. Tavis marTlebis aranair reJimSi ar gadavalT, uxmod vakeTebT Cvens saqmes. parlamentma gasca mkafio pasuxi am sakiTxs. miuxedavad imisa, rom gavakeTeT ganacxadi evrokavSirSi, is punqtebi, rac asocirebis xelSekrulebiT gvaqvs Sesasrulebeli, mainc unda Sesruldes. 2014 wels rom movawereT xeli asocirebis SeTanxmebas, ganacxadi or dReSic rom dagvewera, mainc migviRebdnen mxolod maSin, rodesac SevasrulebdiT imas, rac unda Segvesrulebina 2024 wlamde. amis Semdegac ki Segvamowmeben, rogor gavarTviT Tavi dakisrebul amocanas da SesaZloa 1-2 weliwadSi migviRon.
– maSin ratom gavakeTeT ganacxadi daCqarebuli tempiT?
– ganacxadis Sevseba, ukrainasTan mimarTebaSi politikuri Jestia, romliTac Riad daanaxes ruseTs – ukrainis miRebasac davaCqarebT, saqarTvelosac miviRebT, daxmarebebsac gavzrdiT, mxarSi davudgebiT da marto aravis davtovebTo. opozicia ki yvelafer amas sxvagvarad xsnis, xom xedavT ra talRa wamovida. vuxsniT, ganvumartavT, araferi Wris, warmogidgeniaT?
– Tu mainc ar esmiT, ratom uxsniT? gamgebi gaigebs.
– ki, gamgebi gaigebs, magram mainc ganvmartavT, imitom rom adekvaturad moazrovneebs gavagebinoT. maTi mxridan xalxis SecdomaSi Seyvanis procesi, destruqcia, gamudmebiT xorcieldeba. axloblebs auxsni, magram erTdroulad 10-20 aTas adamians ver gaagebineb, radgan sxedan televizorebTan da usmenen maT ekleqtikas – erT marTal ambavs araswor interpretacias gaukeTeben da Semdeg veRar gaarCev tyuil-marTals. faqti erTia – Cven, asocirebis SeTanxmebas movawereT xeli, viza-liberalizacia miviReT imitom, rom davaleba kargad SevasruleT. omis pirvelive dRidan davgmeT ruseTis agresia da yvela xelmZRvaneli piris myisieri reaqcia dafiqsirda Ria eTerSi, tviterze, mediaSi da sxva. rezolucia parlamentma miiRo, axla viRebT rezolucias evrokavSirSi Sesvlaze, arc erT kenWisyraSi neitraluri ar vyofilvarT, Tavi ar Segvikavebia, piriqiT, gaxsnili pozicia davafiqsireT da ruseTisTvis xmis CamorTmevas, mis winaaRmdeg rezolucias, gaeroSic da evrokavSirSic davuWireT mxari. axla Tbilisma gamoTqva ltolvilebis miRebis mzaoba. grovdeba ukrainaSi gasagzavni humanitaruli tvirTi, qveynis masStabiT organizaciebi, sawarmoebi, msxvili kompaniebi uricxaven fuls ukrainas. maqsimumi keTdeba da amis miuxedavad, moiZebnebian adamianebi, romlebic mainc ipovian negativs da amaze aageben mTel gadacemebs. es aris araswori midgoma da upirveles yovlisa, xalxis, qveynis upativcemuloba. darwmunebuli var, dro gava, xalxi daalagebs movlenebs da SedegiT imsjelebs.
– rogor Sedegs elodebiT?
– velodebi, rom am patara qveyanam, sakuTari Rirsebis Seulaxavad, yvelaferi iRonos samxedro agresiis Tavidan asacileblad. Cven ukve gamoviareT is, rac axla ukrainaSi xdeba. msgavss aravis vusurvebT. aTwleulebis ganmavlobaSi ruseTidan momdinare borotebas erTxel da samudamod unda daesvas wertili.
– opoziciis warmomadgenlebs miaCniaT, rom dapatimrebuli saakaSvili unda gaaTavsuflon da gauSvan ukrainaSi saerTaSoriso Tanamegobrobis qveynebis liderTa dasaxmareblad.
– saqarTvelos omSi veraferi SeZlo. gamocdilebis gaziarebas vapirebo, rom ambobs, romel gamocdilebas gulisxmobs, teritoriebis 20%-is ruseTisTvis gadacemis Tu mebrZolTa brZolis velze mitovebis? kodoris xeoba mag motiviT davkargeT, manamde oseTs gaufarTova sazRvrebi da daarqva raRac meore oseTi, da isic am saxelwodebis gamo davkargeT. anu manamde moamzada yvelaferi, rom ufro meti waeRo mters. nuTu es yvelaferi unda aswavlos ukrainis sardlobas? Tu iq yofna undoda, xom daniSnes Tanamdebobaze, reformebis gatareba daavales. . . da ra qna? gaiqca, ukanonod gadakveTa im saxelmwifos sazRvari, romelmac moqalaqeoba, Tanamdeboba misca da Seifara. axla sadRa mirbis, ra unda? gasagebia, rom `nacionalebi~ Sanss iyeneben mis gasaTavisufleblad. umjobesia, axlos ar gaekaros ukrainelebs, isini saakaSvilis gareSec cudad ar ibrZvian, mters Riad, vaJkacurad, uiaraRod xvdebian, SiSveli xelebiT aCereben tankebs. araTu me, mTeli msoflio moxiblulia maTi TavganwirviT, mamacobiT. mudmivad gvaqvs kontaqti ukrainel megobrebTan, bednierebi arian, rom col-Svili daabinaves poloneTSi, arcerTi mamakaci ar tovebs ukrainas, sisxlis bolo wveTamde apirebs yvela brZolas. dideba ukrainas!
