,,ცალსახაა, რომ სანქციები მუშაობს, მთავარია, არ შეჩერდეს”
მარიამ ხითარიშვილი 27 48 93 –
ruseT-ukrainis omze, saqarTvelos mTavrobis poziciasa da evrokavSiris rolze saubrobs `aWarasTan~ samarTlis magistri, saqarTvelos advokatTa asociaciis wevri, profesiuli kavSirebis aWaris respublikuri gaerTianebis Tavmjdomare zurab cecxlaZe
– daviwyoT ruseT-ukrainis omis SefasebiT, luganskis da donbasis saxalxo respublikebad aRiarebiT – amaze ratom ar SeCerda putini, nuTu Tavidanve hqonda Cafiqrebuli, daertya kievisTvis?
– vidre ruseT-ukrainis omis Sefasebaze gadavalT, minda aRvniSno, rom iseve, rogorc mTeli civilizebuli samyaro, Cvenc vgmobT ruseTis yovlad gaumarTlebel da sisxlismRvrel oms ukraineli erisa da ukrainis saxelmwifos winaaRmdeg. gulwrfel solidarobas vucxadebT ukrainel mamac ers yvelaze bnel da verag mterTan brZolaSi da vloculobT umokles droSi mterze gamarjvebisa da mSvidobis damyarebisaTvis mTel ukrainaSi.
rogorc mogexsenebaT, ruseTi Tavisi saokupacio ZalebiT ukrainaSi SeWras da farTomasStabiani omis gaCaRebas uwodebs ruseTis mxridan specialur sabrZolo RonisZiebas, Tumca msoflio sazogadoebam mas swori saxeli daarqva, es aris ruseTis mxridan araprovocirebuli SeWra ukrainis teritoriaze, romlis mizania ukrainis kanonieri xelisuflebis Zalismieri, saomari moqmedebebiT damxoba da misi damoukideblobisa da Tavisuflebis xelyofa, Sesabamisad, ukrainisaTvis evroatlantikuri da zogadad, qveynis ganviTarebis perspeqtivebis mospoba.
miuxedavad imisa, rom amerikis dazvervis samsaxurebi pirdapir acxadebdnen ruseTis ukrainaSi SeWris safrTxis Sesaxeb, da amasTan, ruseTis mxridan swored am periodSi didZali SeiaraRebisa da samxedro SenaerTebis Tavmoyra ukrainis sazRvarTan, miuTiTebda ukrainaSi SeWris udavoobaze. msoflios bevri qveyana da maT Soris, ukrainis xelisuflebac acxadebda, rom es iyo ruseTis mxridan mxolod Zalis demonstrireba da ukrainis teritoriis siRrmeSi SeWris da sruli okupaciis niSnebi ar arsebobda. maqsimum, msoflio sazogadoeba eloda donbassa da luganskSi ruseTis jaris Sesvlas, separatistuli regionebis aRiarebas da maTi dacvis motiviT, mxolod am teritoriebis okupirebas. ratomRac aravis egona, rom ruseTi imaze mets moindomebda ukrainaSi, vidre man miaRwia saqarTveloSi 2008 wels. absoluturad naTeli iyo, rom putini mets gaakeTebda ukrainaSi da amis yvela winapiroba arsebobda, miT umetes, Tu gaviTvaliswinebT ruseTis dRevandeli xelisuflebisa da zogadad, ruseTis saxelmwifos agresiul da verag bunebas, rasac emateba susti winaaRmdegoba dasavleTis saxelmwifoebisa da evroatlantikuri sivrcis mxridan. faqtobrivad, ruseTi saTanadod ar dasjila saqarTvelos teritoriebis okupaciisaTvis. iyo raRac garkveuli susti sanqciebi dasavleTisa da natos mxridan, rac didxans ar gagrZelebula. mxolod mezobeli saxelmwifoebis daxmareba (Tundac samxedro) ar aris sakmarisi ruseTis SesaCereblad, amisTvis saWiroa grZelvadiani ekonomikuri sanqciebis ganxorcieleba, iseTis, rogorsac axorcielebs axla evrokavSiri da nato. swored damangreveli sanqciebi da sruli izolaciaa saWiro imisaTvis, rom ruseTs ar gauCndes mezobeli teritoriebis okupaciis boroti zraxvebi. ekonomikurad Zlieri ruseTi aris saSiSroeba mTeli msofliosaTvis, vinaidan, totalitaruli qveyanaa da Tan borotebis imperia, romelic fiqrobs dResac, rom sabWoTa kavSiris daSla aris me-20 saukunis yvelaze didi geopolitikuri katastrofa da ibrZvis mis aRsadgenad ise, rogorc mas xelewifeba – omiTa da sisxlisRvriT.
– eloda Tu ara putini aseT winaaRmdegobas?
– ra Tqma unda, ar eloda, raRac ver gaTvales, kerZod, rom es ukraina aRar aris 2014 wlis ukraina, romelsac faqtobrivad, ubrZolvelad waarTva yirimis naxevarkunZuli da Seuqmna separatistuli regionebi donbasisa da luganskis saxiT. axla ukraina gacilebiT Zlieri, stabiluri da monoliTuri saxelmwifoa, vidre maSin iyo, romlis SeiaraRebaSi, ukve aris `stingerebi~, `javelinebi~, `bairaxtarebi~ da sxva Tanamedrove, Zlieri samxedro teqnika. ukrainaSi maRalia erovnuli TviTSegneba, rasac emateba sakmaod moqnili da mamaci xelisufleba, romelic bolomde dgas xalxTan. mebrZolebi motivirebuli arian samSoblos dasacavad, rasac ver vityviT ruseTis samxedro nawilebze, romlebic mSvidobiani mosaxleobis mxridanac udides winaaRmdegobas awydebian. erT-erT gamosvlaSi ukrainis prezidentma am oms samamulo uwoda, sadac erT muStad Sekruli eris damarcxeba SeuZlebelia.
– koleqtiuri dasavleTi sakmaod didxans fiqrobda sanqciebis dawesebaze. ram iqonia gavlena maTze?
– sanqciebis dawesebis garda, qveynebs Soris yovelTvis aris azrTa sxvadasxvaoba ama Tu im sanqciasTan dakavSirebiT. yvela saxelmwifo Tavisi interesebis Sesabamisad ganixilavs am process da miaCnia, rom sanqciebis daweseba unda moxdes agresiis faqtis dafiqsirebis SemTxvevaSi. vfiqrob, yvelaze metad im faqtma imoqmeda, rom amerikis, evrokavSirisa da natos muqara sanqciebis Sesaxeb, arafrad Caagdo ruseTma. man CaTvala, rom amjeradac saerTo azramde ver Camoyalibdebodnen evroatlantikuri aliansi da evrokavSiri, an es sanqciebi iqneboda saqarTvelos msgavsi, rasac ruseTi advilad gaumklavda. amas daemata isic, rom aSkara gaxda ruseTis zraxvebi, umTavresi aqtori iyos msoflio gadawyvetilebebSi da angariSgasawevi Zala gaxdes. is aRar malavs Tavis Sors mimaval gegmebs, aRmosavleT evropis qveynebze gavlenebis aRdgenasTan dakavSirebiT, mianiSnebs msoflio sazogadoebas, rom es Tu nebayoflobiT ar moxdeba, maSin amas Zalis gamoyenebiT miaRwevs, ra drosac ar gaiTvaliswinebs arc saerTaSoriso samarTlis darRvevas da arc arsebul msoflio wesrigs.
– arc aSS eloda, rom ukraina aseT winaaRmdegobas gauwevda putins, Tumca mainc ver daexmara cocxali ZaliT da iaraRiT. ra akavebs?
– amerikis dazverva am sakiTxTan dakavSirebiT acxadebda, rom ruseTi kievs daikavebda SeWridan 96 saaTis ganmavlobaSi, rac aSkarad ar gamarTlda da rac calsaxad ukrainis mamaci damcvelebis damsaxurebaa. imdenad didi raodenobis samxedro SenaerTs da samxedro teqnikas mouyara Tavi ruseTma ukrainis sazRvrebTan, rom amis Tqmis winapirobebi namdvilad arsebobda, Tumca ukrainam SeZlo da es omi aqcia samamulo omad, Sesabamisad, ruseTma ver aRasrula Tavisi ganzraxva, `blickrigTan~ dakavSirebiT da ukrainis mier gaZlebuli yoveli Semdgomi dRe ruseTis sawinaaRmdegod imuSavebs.
rac Seexeba cocxali ZaliT daxmarebas, gamoricxulia, vinaidan es iqneba winapiroba msoflio omis dasawyebad. Tu dRes saomar mxareebad iTvleba ruseTi-ukraina, Tu sxva saxelmwifoebi daexmarebian omSi ukrainas cocxali ZaliT, aRiqmeba ukve omSi monawile mxareTa mravalmxrivobad, rac mesame msoflio omis niSnebs SeiZens. es, Tavis mxriv, gamoiwvevs saomari moqmedebebis gavrcelebasac sxavadasxva qveynis teritoriaze. Tu natos qveynis cocxali SeiaraRebuli Zalebi miiReben monawileobas saomar moqmedebebSi, es imis maniSnebeli iqneba, rom ruseTis mosazRvre natos qveynebic unda elodnen sapasuxo reaqciebs ruseTis mxridan. Seqmnili situaciidan gamomdinare, yvelaze relevanturi iqneba, ukrainas daexmaron iaraRiT, energomatareblebiT, fuliT da humanitaruli misiebiT da, ra Tqma unda, ruseTis winaaRmdeg ganxorcielebuli (saqmiT ganxorcielebuli da ara dapirebiT) damangreveli sanqciebiT. ukrainisaTvis iaraRis miwodeba SeiZleba aralegaluri gzebiTac ise, rom konkretuli saxelmwifoebi ar afiSirebdnen. axla mTavaria, ukrainam miiRos qalaqis pirobebSi brZolisaTvis saWiro iaraRi, konkretulad: tanksawinaaRmdego da haersawinaaRmdego SeiaraReba.
– ras iTvaliswinebs evrokavSiris sanqciebi da ramdenad aiZulebs putins es SezRudvebi, Sewyvitos omi?
– evrokavSiris liderebi SeTanxmdnen, ruseTs dauweson sanqciebi, romelsac didi da mZime Sedegebi mohyveba. 27-ve wevrma qveyanam dauWira mxari sanqciebis pakets, romelic ruseTis finansuri, energo da satransporto seqtoris winaaRmdeg aris mimarTuli. ruseTs SeerTebulma Statebmac mkacri ekonomikuri sanqciebi dauwesa, romelic miznad isaxavs misi ekonomikisa da finansuri institutebis dazaralebas, amasTanave, ruseTis wvdomis SezRudvas teqnologiebze. sanqciebi Seexeba ruseTis 10 yvelaze msxvil finansur instituts, SezRudvebi dawesdeba eqsportzec, Sedegad, ruseTs ar eqneba wvdoma maRalteqnologiur produqtebze. sanqciebi dawesdeba ruseTis sididiT meore bankzec, aseve, gaiyineba maTi aqciebi, aSS-is finansur sistemas ukavSirdeba. saubaria ruseTis sviftis sistemidan gaTiSvaze. sanqciebi dauwesda putinis uaxloes garemocvasa da mdidar rusebs, romlebic londonSi cxovroben, gaiyineba ruseTis msxvili bankebis aqtivebi da amasTanave, rusul kompaniebs aekrZalebaT dafinansebis mozidva britaneTSi. putins omis Sewyvetas aiZulebs zemoaRniSnuli sanqciebis saswrafod da realurad amoqmedeba. unda Seiqmnas ukrainis mxardamWeri saxelmwifoebis didi koalicia, romelic dauyovnebliv aamuSavebs sanqciebs ruseTis winaaRmdeg. ruseTze Zlieri zewola iqneba, Tu mas gaTiSaven sviftis sistemidan, rasac ratomRac ar Cqaroben evrokavSiri da nato. lodinis dro ar aris, yvela sanqcia unda amoqmeddes dauyovnebliv, dro aRar iTmens. unda moxdes ruseTis sruli izolacia Tavisufali samyarosagan. yvela mimarTulebiT unda Seeqmnas diskomforti ruseTis mosaxleobis im nawils, vinc mxars uWers da amarTlebs ruseTis SeWras suverenuli ukrainis teritoriaze.
– msoflio elodeba, rom Tavad rusebi daamxoben putins, magram rogorc Cans, arc es aris swrafi procesi.
– vfiqrob, amis imedi ar unda gvqondes. ramdenime wlis win, man, faqtobrivad, daubruna ruseTs yirimis naxevarkunZuli, moaxdina misi aneqsia, ris gamoc imdeni benefiti miiRo, rom jer gaxarjulic ara aqvs. aranairi kvlevebi ar miuTiTebs, rom ukrainaSi omis gaCaRebis gamo ruseTis prezidentis Sida reitingi katastrofulad daeca, totalitarul saxelmwifoSi, sadac xelisuflebis yvela organo imarTeba putinis diqtatiT, omis winaaRmdeg mimarTuli kampaniis xarisxi Zalian dabalia. yvelaferTan erTad, mas ar hyavs Zlieri da organizebuli politikuri opozicia, romelic uxelmZRvanelebs xelisuflebis mimarT ukmayofilebas da protests.
– ras ityviT saqarTvelos mier evrokavSirSi saswrafo wesiT ganacxadis Setanaze?
– saqarTvelos xelisuflebam swori gadawyvetileba miiRo, roca Seitana evrokavSirSi ganacxadi evrokavSiris wevrobis kandidatis statusis miniWebasTan dakavSirebiT. mogexsenebaT, es ganacxadi unda Seetana 2024 wels, ufro momzadebuli, reformebis Catarebisa da ukve gaformebuli asocirebis xelSekrulebiT aRebuli valdebulebebis Sesrulebis Semdeg. Tumca, dRes msoflioSi Seqmnili situacia, SeiZleba katalizatori gaxdes evrokavSirisTvis, daCqarebuli wesiT miiRon evrokavSirSi saqarTveloc. aRsaniSnavia isic, rom ukrainis sagareo saqmeTa ministrma moiTxova ukrainis gancxadebis gancalkevebulad ganxilva iq arsebuli saomari moqmedebebis gaTvaliswinebiT, rac imas niSnavs, rom ukrainisgan gansxvavebiT, igive Sedegs ver miiRebs saqarTvelo.
– kidev ramdeni xani unda elodos ukraina kandidatobas da Tuki miiRes kandidatad, ras miscems es ruseTis winaaRmdeg brZolaSi?
– ra Tqma unda, marto is faqtori, rom ukraina dRes saomar moqmedebebSia, ar iqneba sakmarisi evrokavSirSi misaRebad. iq gawevrianeba kompleqsuri da xangrZlivi procesia. pirvel rigSi, ganixileba qveynisTvis kandidatis statusis miniWeba. amisTvis saWiroa, rom qveyana SesabamisobaSi iyos garkveul kriteriumebTan. esenia: politikuri kriteriumebi – stabiluroba institutebisa, romlebic uzrunvelyofen demokratiis, kanonis uzenaesobis, adamianis uflebebisa da umciresobebis pativiscemis dacvis garantiebs; ekonomikuri kriteriumebi – funqcionirebadi sabazro ekonomika da evrokavSiris sabazro ZalebTan konkurenciisa da gamklavebis unari; administraciuli da instituciuri kriteriumi – evrokavSiris kanonmdeblobis efeqtiani Sesruleba da wevrobis valdebulebebis aRebis SesaZlebloba. evropuli komisia afasebs, unda mieniWos Tu ara qveyanas kandidatis wodeba. am mosazrebis safuZvelze, evropuli sabWo wyvets kandidatis statusis miniWebis sakiTxs da iwyeba molaparakebebi srulfasovan wevrobaze. kandidatis statusi ar gulisxmobs evrokavSiris wevrobis uflebis avtomatur mopovebas. qveyanam unda gaxados Tavisi politikuri, sasamarTlo sistema da ekonomika blokTan Tavsebadi evrokavSiris saerTo samarTlis sistemis miRebiT. sabolood, blokSi misaRebad qveynis kandidatura erTxmad unda daamtkicos evrokavSiris TiToeulma, 27-ve wevrma. evrokavSiri ar aris samxedro bloki da masSi gawevrianeba ar avaldebulebs saxelmwifoebs gauwion erTmaneTs samxedro daxmareba sxva qveynidan intervenciis SemTxvevaSi, amitom, mocemul SemTxvevaSi, evrokavSiris wevrobis kandidatis statusis miniWebas eqneba politikuri da ekonomikuri mniSvneloba. politikuri mniSvneloba im TvalsazrisiT, rom es iqneba evrokavSiris qveynebis mxridan araorazrovani signali, rom saomari moqmedebebis miuxedavad, evropa mTeli Tavisi struqturebiTa da ekonomikuri SesaZleblobebiT gverdSi udgas ukrainas, miiCnevs mas evropuli ojaxis srulfasovan wevrad da mzad aris yvela saxis ekonomikuri daxmareba gauwios. mniSvnelovani iqneba ruseTis mimarT sanqciebis dawesebis mimarTulebiTac – rom evropa im sanqciebiT ar dakmayofildeba da axal sanqciebsac dauwesebs ruseTs saWiroebis SemTxvevaSi.
– rogor afasebT saqarTvelos mTavrobis sifrTxiles, romelsac opozicia simxdaled miiCnevs?
– mocemul umZimes situaciaSi, saqarTvelos sifrTxiles dadebiTad vafaseb. metsac getyviT, amas sifrTxileze metad, mTavrobis mxridan gonieri da pasuxismgebliani damokidebuleba hqvia. didi xania ar msmenia saqarTvelos mTavrobebisagan, rom erovnuli interesebi sxva merkantilur interesebze win daeyenebinos. emociaze dafuZnebuli gadawyvetilebebis miRebam SeiZleba savalalo mdgomareobamde migviyvanos. axlaa yvelaze metad saWiro swori gaTvlebis gakeTeba, riTac ar mivcemT sababs Sinaur da gareSe mtrebs, normaluri ganviTarebis relsebidan gadaiyvanos Cveni qveyana. saqarTvelos, rogorc arasdros, sWirdeba mSvidoba, stabiluroba da ekonomikuri ganviTareba. ruseT- ukrainis omSi CaTreva qveyanas aSkarad daangrevs, rac xelisuflebis swori gadawyvetilebebiT Tavidan unda aviciloT. ra Tqma unda, viazrebT, rom mTeli evropis da maT Soris, saqarTvelos bedic, dRes ukrainaSi wydeba, am omSi ukrainis gamarjvebam mTeli evropa unda ixsnas ruseTidan momavali safrTxeebisgan, Sesabamisad, Ceni solidaroba da TanagrZnoba ukrainis mxaresaa da mzad varT msoflios nebismier platformaze politikuri mxardaWera gamovucxadoT, rac gulisxmobs evrosabWosa da gaeroSi ukrainis mxardamWeri rezoluciebisTvis xmis micemas, aseve humanitarul daxmarebas mTeli qveynis masStabiT. kategoriulad ar veTanxmebi saqarTvelos saxelmwifos mxridan raime formiT monawileobas, moxaliseTa mobilizebasa da saomrad ukrainaSi gagzavnas. es iqneba Cveni qveynis saomar mxared gamocxadebis tolfasi, rac ar unda dauSvas xelisuflebam. arc evropasa da msoflios sWirdeba dRes kidev erTi konfliqtis kera, sadac saWiro iqneba mTeli Zalisxmevis mobilizeba mxardaWeris TvalsazrisiT.
– raSi xedavT gamosavals, putinma birTvuli triada aamoqmeda?
– vfiqrob, amis realuri safrTxe ar arsebobs da es ufro SantaJisa da muqarisaTvis esaWiroeba. Tanac, natos mxridan mkafio gancxadebebi imasTan dakavSirebiT, rom ar Caereva samxedro ZaliT konfliqtSi, aneitralebs birTvuli iaraRis gamoyenebis saSiSroebas. amitomac iyo, rom wamyvanma qveynebma putinis muqara birTvuli arsenalis mzadyofnaSi moyvanasTan dakavSirebiT, realur safrTxed ar miiCnia.
– ra pozicia unda daiWiros saqarTvelom am urTules periodSi?
– mimaCnia, rom saqarTvelos xelisuflebas da saxelmwifos absoluturad swori pozicia uWiravs. vgulisxmob, ukrainis politikur mxardaWeras msoflios yvela platformaze, saqarTvelos parlamentis mier ukrainis mxardamWeri rezoluciis miRebas (am sakiTxis komentirebisas amerikis elCma saqarTveloSi keli degnanma dasafasebeli uwoda saqarTvelos xelisuflebis mxardaWeras da mkafio poziciis gamoxatvas gaerosa da evropis sabWoSi) da masStaburi humanitaruli daxmarebebis gawevas ukrainis mosaxleobisTvis. aRsaniSnavia, saomari moqmedebebis gamo ukrainis saqarTveloSi CarCenili moqalaqeebisaTvis sacxovrebliTa da sakvebiT uzrunvelyofis programebis amoqmedeba, aseve sxvadasxva RonisZiebis ganxorcieleba, rac mimarTulia ukrainisa da ukrainelebis dasaxmareblad.
– rogor SeafasebT opoziciis pozicias?
– am sakiTxTan dakavSirebiT unda aRvniSno, rom saqarTvelos xelisufleba, opozicia da saqarTvelos mosaxleobis udidesi nawili (mcire gamonaklisis garda) erTiania ukrainis mxardaWeris sakiTxSi, aq sadavoa mxolod formebi, Tu rogor da ra xarisxiT unda davuWiroT mxari. opozicias miaCnia, rom ukrainisaTvis mxardaWeris mTavari xazi gadis okupanti ruseTis kritikis qarcecxlSi gatarebasa da misTvis okupantisa da dampyroblis ZaxilSi, xelisuflebas ki swori pozicia uWiravs, roca politikur mxardaWeras ucxadebs saerTaSoriso asparezze da farTomasStabian humanitarul daxmarebas ugzavnis ukrainis saxelmwifos. saqarTvelos mosaxleoba Tavisuflad gamoxatavs ukrainis mxardaWeras mitingebsa da manifestaciebze. am yvelaferSi uadgilod migvaCnia opoziciis mcdeloba, Sidapolitikuri miznebisaTvis gamoiyenos arsebuli situacia da garkveul warmatebas miaRwios viwro partiuli interesebis sasargeblod. civilizebuli samyaros momavali dRes ukrainaze gadis da Tu rogor dasruldeba saomari moqmedebebi, amaze iqneba damokidebuli, rogor msoflioSi vicxovrebT – ruseTis SantaJisa da muqaris qveS Tu demokratiul da Tavisufal sazogadoebaSi. putinsa da ruseTs aSkarad eSinia saerTaSoriso sanqciebiT damdgari zianis, amitom man Tavis erT-erT gamosvlaSi sanqciebis daweseba gautola ruseTisaTvis omis gamocxadebas. sanqciebi muSaobs, mTavaria, ar SeCerdes da igi maqsimalurad mtkivneuli iyos. agresoris saerTaSoriso izolaciiT miiRweva ukrainaSi omis warmatebiT dasruleba, risi Tanmdevic unda iyos ukrainis teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgena da yirimis dabruneba, es precedenti ki momavalSi saqarTvelosa da moldovaSi teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgenis safuZveli gaxdeba.