,,პუტინს საქართველოს ტერიტორიაზე ორი ბაზა აქვს: აფხაზეთსა და სამაჩაბლოში, ფეხისწვერებზე შემოპარვა რაში სჭირდება?!”
მარიამ ხითარიშვილი 27 48 93 –
sagareo politika polarizebulia. koleqtiuri dasavleTi gaemijna ruseTsa da mis mokavSireebs, ukrainis Tavganwirvam kacobriobis gonieri nawilis mobilizacia SeZlo. aSkara gaxda, ruseTs yvela xerxiT daupirispirdebian da saboloo ekonomikur ganadgurebamde miiyvanen
`ruseTi daiSleba, rogorc Tavis droze – sabWoTa kavSiri. am process veRaraferi SeaCerebs, magram ra mdgomareobaSi aRmoCndeba am periodSi saqarTvelo, ra gvelis, rodesac CrdiloeT kavkasiidan Cvenken daeSvebian `boevikebi~, es calke Temaa~ – acxadebs `aWarasTan~ eqskluzivSi politologi ramaz sayvareliZe.
– omi yovelTvis mwuxarebaa da am etapze msxverpli ar aklia arcerT mxares, gansakuTrebiT – ruseTs. saomari moqmedebebi Zveleburad stabiluria, radgan ruseTis SeWra ar dagvirgvinda swrafi gamarjvebiT, rogorc Tavad eloda. faqtia, rom ukraina ibrZvis sakmaod efeqturad da, rac aranakleb mniSvnelovania, masTan erTad ibrZvis mTeli dasavleTi, msoflio. uprecedento gaerTianebis momswre gavxdiT, Tundac ukrainis iaraRiT da finansebiT daxmareba gavixsenoT da Tundac, ruseTis winaaRmdeg mimarTuli ekonomikuri an sxva saxis sanqciebi. manamde arsad ase ar gaerTianebulan moskovis winaaRmdeg: arc CvenTan, 2008 wels, arc yirimis aneqsiis dros. . . ukrainisa da msoflios brZola CrdiloeTis imperiis winaaRmdeg, TavisTavad, uaRresad dadebiTi movlenaa, ramac SesaZloa, msoflio Secvalos.
– batono ramaz, Tqven axseneT, rom ruseTs meti msxverpli hyavs, rusuli arxebi ki sapirispiro informacias avrceleben. faqtia: mimdinareobs sainformacio omi. rogor gavigoT, sad aris simarTle?
– yvela oms axlavs sainformacio dapirispirebebi, rac bunebrivia, Tumca problematuric, radgan swori informaciis mopoveba TiTqmis SeuZlebeli xdeba. aqedan gamomdinare, rusuli da ukrainuli wyaroebis mikerZoebuli cnobebiT rom ar vimsjeloT, unda gamovideT faqtebidan, anu ras akeTeben dapirispirebuli mxareebi. unda SevadaroT monacemebi im nabijebs, romlebsac esa Tu is mxare dgams. jer erTi, ruseTma gazarda mobilizaciis raodenoba da tempebi, Tanac putinma ganacxada, rom siriidan iTxoven omSi Cabmas da cimbiridan mohyavs jari. Tuki amas gaviTvaliswinebT, cxadi xdeba, rom Semoaklda cocxali Zala.
– dasavleTi sakmaod didxans fiqrobda ukrainis realur mxardaWeraze. . .
– ra Tqma unda, dasavleTi saerTod rom Caeba, es gvixaria, Torem gvian Cabmas aRar vCiviT. maTac SeiZleba gavugoT – Tavs ikavebdnen imitom, rom dasavleTis politikuri elita ufro metad aris damokidebuli amomrCevelze, vidre ruseTis (ra Sedarebaa!), am amomrCevlisTvis ki mniSvneloba aqvs, ramdenad problemuri iqneba misTvis – konkretuli moqalaqisTvis esa Tu is gadawyvetileba. energomatareblebis sanqciebiT gamowveuli gaZvireba diskomforts uqmnis evropelebs. amaze xSirad saubroben dasavleli politikosebi da baidenic, uxsnian sakuTar moqalaqeebs, sxvagvarad ruseTs verafers vuzamTo. Tavad gansajeT, daarwmuno evropelebi, cxovreba gagiZvirdebaT, magram unda avitanoT, raTa ruseTi davamarcxoTo. es cota Znelia.
– ruseTi rom daesxas Tavs evropas, maSin xom mixvdebian?
– maSin – ki da adekvaturi aRqmac eqnebaT, mixvdebian, saxifaTo imperiasTan rom aqvT saqme, manamde ki, sanam naRmi ar afeTqda, ruseTs miiCnevdnen rigiT saxelmwifod, iseve rogorc CineTsa Tu iaponias. axla, ukrainaze afeTqda ruseTi da swored aq dainaxa dasavleTma, ramdenad saSiSia moskovi da ra SeuZlia putinis agresias, amitom moxerxda dasavleTis mobilizacia ase Tavisuflad da SedarebiT mokle droSi, Torem ruseTs swrafad rom ganexorcielebina ukrainis aneqsia, iseve mSvidad `gaatarebdnen~, rogorc saqarTveloSi SemoWras da Cveni teritoriebis miTvisebas. `sxvisi Wiri, Robes – Cxiri~- kargi naTqvamia. samwuxarod, asea mowyobili adamianis buneba. aqedan gamomdinare, gauWirda da gauxangrZlivda msoflio politikur elitas ruseTis sawinaaRmdego gadawyvetilebebis miReba.
– faqtia, arcerTi mxare ar ixevs ukan, Tumca zelenski pirdapir eubneba putins, aRarc nato Cans, arc misi SeiaraReba da mivusxdeT molaparakebebis magidaso.
– zelenski yvela RoniT cdilobs, Seitanos omis realobaSi molaparakebebis magida, magram xom vxedavT, rom ar aris es instrumenti qmediTi da isic meeWveba, odesme gaxdes. ruseTma ra pirobebic daayena, im pirobebSive Cadebulia elementi, raSic igulisxmeba, rom is mTeli ukrainis dapyrobas cdilobs. vgulisxmob frazas – `nacisturi elementebisgan unda gavwmindoT ukraina da xelisufleba unda SevcvaloT~.
– anu surs iseTi xelisuflis dasma, romelic piradad misi marioneti iqneba. am dros lavrovi acxadebs, ar vapirebT ukrainis aneqsiaso.
– ar apireben da. . . axdenen.
– ra surT maSin, xom daangries, daxoces, dabombes?
– undaT, undaT. ruseTi imiT sargeblobs, rom adamianebi xSirad ujereben naTqvams, arada, ar SeiZleba ruseTis sityvebis dajereba.
– ra unda qnan am viTarebaSi zelenskim da misma gundma?
– zelenskis jer pirveli raundis amocana aqvs Sesasrulebeli – SeaCeros kievis winaaRmdeg mimarTuli brZolebi, daicvas dedaqalaqi, Semdeg – saerTod gaaTavisuflos qveyana rusis jarisgan da rac SeiZleba didxans gaZlos. dro axla zelenskize muSaobs. rac ufro gaxangrZlivdeba omi, ruseTi kidev ufro mZafrad igrZnobs dasavleTis mier dawesebul sanqciebs.
– ruseTma kargad igrZno am sanqciebis gavlena, magram ukan ar dauxevia, ganacxada, sakmarisad gvaqvs sakuTari saxsrebio.
– amaSia saqme, jer kidev ver igrZno kargad, radgan isev cxovrobs Semonaxuli rezervebiT, magram es didxans ver gagrZeldeba – gamoeleva fuli da Semdeg ras izams, esec sakiTxavia. vxedavT, rom msoflio mniSvnelobis brendebi da kompaniebi gavidnen ruseTidan, bankebs CaeketaT gza, biznesi zedized kargavs poziciebs, Tanxebs. . . yvela es nabiji ruseTze seriozulad imoqmedebs garkveuli drois Semdeg. am etapze ver axdens sanqciebi im damangrevel moqmedebas, rac Cafiqrebulia, verc mosaxleoba grZnobs zians, radgan met-naklebad uZlebs saerTaSoriso bazrebidan gamoTiSvas. met-naklebad imitom vTqvi, rom ruseTis mTel rig qalaqebSi talonebiT gaicema sakvebi (moskovsa da peterburgze ar aris laparaki).
– evrokavSirSi ukrainis kandidatad miReba ra zegavlenas moaxdens omis Sewyvetaze?
– rodesac ukrainis am Txovnas aJRereben, iqve ayoleben, am statuss simboluri xasiaTi eqnebao. mgoni, 20 welze metia, rac evrokavSirSi Sesvlis kandidatia TurqeTi, magram wevrad kidev ar miuRiaT. mogexsenebaT, yvelam unda Tqvas Tanxmoba, rasac ver miaRwies am qveyanaSi arsebuli rigi problemebis gamo.
– ukrainasac es bedi elis?
– vfiqrob, evrokavSiris wevr qveynebs ar gauCndebaT ukrainis wevrad miRebis survili, radgan konfliqtSi myofi qveyanaa. warmoidgineT, rogorc ki wevri gaxdeba ukraina, mis moqalaqeebs gaexsnebaT Sengenis zona, romlis meSveobiTac SeZleben evropaSi SezRudvebis gareSe Tavisufal mimosvlas.
– da es ratom iqneba maTTvis problema?
– imitom, rom omis pirobebSi migraciis talRa Zalian didi iqneba.
– ltolvilebs xom mainc iReben?
– ltolvilebs iReben, magram am SemTxvevaSi regulaciis saSualebac aqvT, Tanac, ltolvilad miRebis dros struqturebi yalibdeba, raodenoba Tanxmdeba, yvelaferi oficialurad formdeba, magram rodesac nebismier moqalaqes SeeZleba bileTi aiRos da Cavides, migraciis regulireba SeuZlebeli gaxdeba. msgavs viTarebaSi problemad eqca evropas aRmosavleTidan stiqiurad wamosuli migraciuli procesebi da axla erideba ukrainidanac analogiuri situaciis Seqmnas.
– rogor SeafasebT RaribaSvilis pozicias?
– mas uWiravs pragmatuli, realisturi pozicia. ginda damarcxdes da ginda gaimarjvos ruseTma, saqarTvelo yvela variantSi safrTxis winaSe dgas. Tuki ukrainaSi damarcxdeba, putins moundeba iseTi regionis daZleva, sadac ukve gaumarjvia, Tu gaimarjvebs – ukrainis sadamsjelo operacias miayolebs saqarTvelos, romelsac natoSi gawevrianeba iseve unda, rogorc ukrainas.
– Cveni qveynis evrokavSirSi kandidatad miRebis swrafi wesiT ganxilvis Sesaxeb ras ityviT – Sansi gvaqvs?
– Sansi namdvilad gvaqvs. vimeoreb, dasavleTis qveynebis politikur elitas uwevs angariSgeba sakuTar mosaxleobasTan. maTTvis ufro gasagebi iqneba, rom sami qveyana, romelTagan erTSi omobs ruseTi, miiRon kandidatad, vidre miiRon mxolod is, sadac axla omia.
– Tuki marTla migviRes Tundac evrokavSiris kandidatad, maSin xom gadavrCebiT ruseTis sadamsjelo operacias?
– vera. kandidatoba ki ara, natos mapic rom miviRoT (rac kandidatobis ekvivalentia), maSinac ver gadavrCebiT. amaze iyo saubrebi, rom unda gamartivdes natoSi miRebis procedurebi. Tuki myisierad gavwevriandebiT, iseve, rogorc hpirdebian fineTsa da SvedeTs, 20 wuTSi gagawevrianebTo, maSin daculi viqnebiT, sxva SemTxvevaSi, ver gadavrCebiT, radgan Tuki xangrZlivi fiqri daiwyes, ruseTi dagvartyams.
– SeuZlebelia ar SevexoT rusi moqalaqeebis didi nakadis Semodinebas. zogierTi ambobs, putinis reJims gamoeqcnen da biznesebis gadarCena surTo, sxvebi ki sulac mexuTe kolonad moixsenieben – putini ase uSvebda yirimsa da ukrainaSi sakuTar moqalaqeebs da Semdeg omobdao.
– ai, am meore winadadebis azri ar mesmis. jer erTi, es xalxi aqeT col-SviliT Camodis, meorec – putins saqarTvelos teritoriaze ori baza aqvs: afxazeTsa da samaCabloSi, fexiswverebze Semoparva raSi sWirdeba?! iq arsebuli tankebis daqoqviTac naxevar saaTSi gadaketavs saqarTvelos. avtobanze rom daayenos, xom gawyvetilia Cveni qveyana SuaSi?!
– belarusebi Tu exmarebian rusebs ukranelebis winaaRmdeg brZolebSi?
– ramdenadac vici, Tavis aridebas cdiloben.
– radikaluri opoziciis pozicias rogor SeafasebT? saakaSvilis gancxadebac saintereso iyo – ukrainis mTavarsardalma SemomiTvala, aq gvWirdebio.
– TviTon ramdenad seriozulad iRebs, ar vici, magram Cven unda miviRoT Tu ara seriozulad, es aris sakiTxavi. miSam isic ki ganacxada sasamarTlos erT-erTi procesis dros, nu makavebT, maRali Tanamdebobis piri var da amdeni dro ar maqvso.
– swored opoziciis gamo gaiwvies ukrainis elCi saqarTvelodan da isic Tqves, es ra uvargisi xalxi yofilxarT qarTvelebio. . .
– ukrainaSi Cvenze aseTi azric musirebs da sapirispiroc. yvelas erTnairad nu SevafasebT. is masalac gavrcelda, ukrainelebi qarTvelebs did pativs vcemTo. Cveni problema mudam is iyo, rom cixe Signidan tydeboda da axlac igive xdeba. is, rac dekanoiZem gaakeTa, samwuxaro faqtia, sxva rom araferi vTqvaT. gavixsenoT, rom Tavis droze saakaSvilma Ralatis muxli amoiRo kodeqsidan. etyoba, icoda, rasac akeTebda. . .
– batono ramaz, Tu SeiZleba reziume gavakeToT – mainc ra gvelis?
– pirveli isaa, rom sasicocxlo safrTxe jer ar gvemuqreba, magram arc ioli periodi gvelodeba. Tuki gaagrZela putinma saomari moqmedebebi da ise ganviTarda movlenebi, rogorc Cafiqrebuli aqvs, maSin marTla unda davfiqrdeT momavalze. faqtia, putins surs ukrainis dapyroba. Tuki amas miaRwevs, mis winaaRmdeg kidev ufro gamkacrdeba sanqciebi, ruseTis ekonomikuri sistema CamoiSleba.
– ruseTma es ar icis?
– putinis xelSia berketebi, is ki araferze fiqrobs, sakuTari Jini awuxebs, mTavrobis danarCeni wevrebi Zalian cud dReSi arian, milionebs kargaven yoveldRe. Tuki ruseTis ekonomika CamoiSleba, es niSnavs, rom ruseTi ver moaxerxebs jaris Senaxvas, mis jariskacebs axlac etyobaT, rom gaqurduli arian, sawvavs ver asxamen tankebSi. ekonomikis Cavardnis gamo, Tuki jari da regionebi ver Seinaxa, ruseTi daSlas daiwyebs. axlaxan SeuTvales cxinvalsa da soxums, Semcirdeba moskovidan Tqveni dafinanseba 85-dan 15 procentamdeo. mxolod es regionebi xom ar hyavs ruseTs? anu regionebi daiwyeben sxva patronebis Zebnas. vimeoreb – moxdeba is, rasac daSla hqvia. sabWoeTis daSlis procesebze ufro mtkivneuli da stiqiuri procesebi ganviTardeba.
– mere es xom kargia CvenTvis?
– ara, CvenTvis es Zalian didi sirTulis momtani iqneba, radgan, warmoidgineT, saiT gamosweven CrdiloeT kavkasiis xalxebi da ras moisurveben isini saqarTvelosgan?. . anu Cveni qveyana isev da isev did problemebSi gaexveva.
