“უკრაინა დღეს იბრძვის ჩვენი მომავლისთვის, უსაფრთხოებისა და მსოფლიოს მშვიდობისთვის”
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msoflio axali realobis winaSea, dasavleTsa da ruseTs Soris gaafTrebuli brZola axla ukrainaze gadis. swored am qveyanaSi wydeba, garkveulwilad, evropis da, maT Soris, saqarTvelos bedic. ruseTi farTomasStabian agresias axorcielebs ukrainis mimarT. mTelma msofliom dagmo kremlis qmedebebi, ruseTs dauwesda ekonomikuri sanqciebi, moskovi ki birTvuli omiT imuqreba.
mosalodnelia Tu ara omis arealis zrda? am da sxva aqtualur kiTxvebze pasuxisTvis bsu-is asocirebul profesors, saerTaSoriso samarTlis eqspert levan jayels mivmarTeT.
– amJamad dasavleTisa da ruseTis dapirispirebis poligoni ukrainaa. ra mizani amoZravebT rogorc ruseTs, ise dasavleTs ukrainasTan mimarTebiT?
– dapirispirebis mwvervalia SeiaraRebuli konfliqti ukrainaSi. mogexsenebaT, es urTierTobis erTgvari formaa, oRond – Zalaze damyarebuli. am omiT irkveva, rom yvela SesaZlo varianti amowures mxareebma da axla erTmaneTis darwmunebas sakuTar simarTleSi Zalis demonstrirebiT apireben, rac arasasurvelia. samwuxarod, moxda es omi, rasac ver gaveqceviT. rac Seexeba konkretul kiTxvas: ra Tqma unda, es politikuri dividendebia. ufro metad ruseTisTvisaa ase, dasavleTisTvis – ekonomikuri dividendebi. saerTod, dasavleTi yovelTvis iyo orientirebuli ekonomikur principebze, ekonomikur warmatebaze da naklebad – politikurze, rasac ver vityviT ruseTze, Sesabamisad, gadamwyveti mniSvneloba eniWeba, ra moxdeba ukrainaSi.
– procesebis rogor ganviTarebas elodebiT?
– Zalian rTulia axla prognozi, Tumca faqtia, rom gaocebas ver malavs verc dasavleTi da verc ruseTi. rogorc Cans, isini ar elodnen ukrainelTa aseT Tavdadebas, Tavganwirvas samSoblosTvis. ukraineli xalxi itanjeba da yvelaze did safasurs ixdis am axali msoflio wesrigis formirebisTvis. aqve xazgasmiT unda aRiniSnos, rom ruseTi agresias axorcielebs ukrainis mimarT (msgavsi agresia ruseTma 2008 wels saqarTvelos mimarTac Caidina), rac dasavleTis SeSfoTebas iwvevs.
– eqspertebi acxadeben, rom meore msoflio omis Semdeg aseTi farTomasStabiani omi ar momxdara. ruseTis Sekaveba dasavleTma adre ratom ver SeZlo?
– me ase ar vityodi, radgan meore msoflio omis Semdeg msoflioSi uamravi konfliqti, Sejaxebebi momxdara. magaliTad, vietnamSi – amerikis, avRaneTSi ki sabWoTa kavSiris mxridan. ubralod, maSin is areali sabWoTa kavSiris da aSS-is dapirispirebis erTgvari poligoni iyo, sadac dazaralebuli xalxis warmoCena, afiSireba ar iyo mizani, anu iqauri msxverplis warmoCeniT gavlenas veravin moipovebda maSin, axla ki ukrainaSi seriozuli safrTxe Seiqmna. ubedurebis zari gaismis da, Sesabamisad, saWiroa ukiduresi zomebis miReba, rac sxva ganzomilebaa, radgan erTia, es moxdes aziaSi, afrikaSi da meore – evropaSi, natos sazRvrebTan axlos, ukrainaSi. amitom saubroben gamokveTilad am omze, es erT-erTi mniSvnelovani gamowvevaa Tanamedrove msoflios marTlwesrigisTvis. rac Seexeba amis prevencias, didi xania muSaobs dasavleTi, mimarTavs zomier ekonomikur sanqciebs, diplomatias, magram ruseTis principuli pozicia ar icvleba. mas surs sabWoTa kavSiris analogiuri gaerTianebis Seqmna da aSS-Tan politikuri gavlenebis Zveleburad gadanawileba, rasac ewinaaRmdegeba dasavleTi. aSS-s ar miaCnia ruseTi iseT zesaxelmwifod, rom rame dauTmos. rogorc vxedavT, ar gaurigda dasavleTi ruseTs da moxda SeiaraRebuli konfliqti. ruseTi ar daTmobs Tavis moTxovnas, mas surs sartyeli Tavis garSemo, anu politikuri gavlenebi postsabWoTa sivrceSi, ase vTqvaT, misi garantirebuli adgili msoflio politikaSi da dRes axdens amis demonstrirebas. is saerTaSoriso danaSaulzec wamsvlelia – ukan dasaxevi gza ar aqvs. ruseTSi vgulisxmob putins, is erTpirovnuli mmarTvelia, Tavad iRebs gadawyvetilebebs, mas ambiciebi gaaCnia, rac ukrainaSi xdeba, misi indikatoria, Sesabamisad, ruseTis mier saerTaSoriso danaSaulis ase Riad Cadena metyvelebs, rom putini ukan daxevas jerjerobiT ar apirebs. am mxriv dasavleTma unda amoicnos es faqtori da miiRos Sesabamisi zomebi, sxvagvarad rom vTqvaT, dasavleTma unda agrZnobinos ruseTs, rom is ar Seegueba ruseTis agresias ukrainaSi da misi gavlenis sferoebis dakanonebas. saamisod dasavleTs dRevandelze metis gaReba mouwevs.
– dasavleTi naklebad eloda ukrainisgan aseT mZlavr winaaRmdegobas . . .
– rogorc saerTaSoriso samarTlis specialisti da ara rogorc politologi, ubralod, martivad vfiqrob: saxelmwifo, romelic ar aris mzad omisTvis, amas ver gaakeTebda. Sesabamisad, maqvs dasabuTebuli eWvi, rom ukraina eloda ruseTis Tavdasxmas, es faqtia. ruseTi ki ar eloda movlenebis aseT ganviTarebas. albaT ver warmoidgendnen, rom aseT winaaRmdegobas waawydebodnen. yvelanairi faqtobrivi monacemi arsebobs, rom ruseTs inventari, simbolika hqonda Catanili ukrainaSi, anu moskovs 1945 wlis 9 maisis gamarjvebis aRlumis Catareba hqonda dagegmili kievSi. ar gamouvida! unda davaskvnaT, rom putini iyo mrCevlebis maameblur garemocvaSi, mas eubnebodnen mxolod imas, rac siamovnebda, xolo realuri mdgomareoba maqsimalurad daumales. ruseTi aseT gaWianurebul konfliqts ar eloda. misi idea iyo, blickrigiT gaevlo ukraina, or dReSi aeRo kievi da erT kviraSi daelagebina situacia – daesva iq marionetuli xelisufleba. kremli aseve ar eloda mZlavr ekonomikur sanqciebs, rac dasavleTma ganaxorciela. Tu igi aqamde mxolod aRmosavleT ukrainaSi prorusuli mTavrobis Camoyalibebas gegmavda, axla is mTlianad ukrainis aneqsias cdilobs.
– sanqciebis gamkacreba Tu SeiZleba?
– ra Tqma unda, sanqciebis gamkacreba SeiZleba. jer es aris racionaluri dasavluri sanqciebi, rac ruseTis aRSfoTebas iwvevs, Tumca seriozuli sanqciebi jer kidev win aris. magaliTad, SeiZleba vilaparakoT blokadaze, embargoze, samxedro operaciebze . . . am mxriv yvelaze didi sanqcia iqneba, Tu haagis sasamarTloSi wardgenili dasabuTebuli bralis SemTxvevaSi, gamoitanen putinis mimarT gamamtyunebel ganaCens da saerTaSoriso damnaSaved cnoben. bevrs SeiZleba gauCndes kiTxva – daakaveben Tu ara putins da rogor aRsruldeba ganaCeni? amas mniSvneloba ar aqvs. mTavaria, rom qveyanas eyoleba haagis sasamarTlos mier saerTaSoriso damnaSaved cnobili piri da es ukve ara marto konkretuli piris, aramed mTeli qveynis diskreditaciaa da ara mgonia, vinme molaparakebebis magidasTan daujdes sisxlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTloSi gasamarTlebul pirs da masTan xeli moaweros raime SeTanxmebas, radgan amgvari SeTanxmebebi iqneba diskreditirebuli da sxva samarTlebriv ganzomilebaSi ganixileba ruseTTan urTierToba.
– vxedavT, rom ruseTi aSantaJebs dasavleTs birTvuli omis gaCaRebiT.
– es imis mimaniSnebelia, rom is ukan daxevas ar apirebs. ruseTi Tu im donemde dasustdeba, rom gamarjvebas veRar miaRwevs, aucileblad moaxdens birTvul katastrofas, Tumca, vfiqrob, birTvul Rilaks ar gamoiyenebs, ubralod, moaxdens ukrainis teritoriaze ganTavsebuli reaqtorebis detonacias. evropa TviTon unda xvdebodes, rom birTvuli katastrofis safrTxe realuria da Sesabamisi protokoliT unda imoqmedos birTvuli katastrofis Tavidan asacileblad. amerikas xels ar aZlevs ganadgurebuli evropa, ganadgurebuli bazrebi, amerikas ekonomikurad stabiluri evropa sWirdeba finansuri operaciebis sawarmoeblad, xolo es yovelive ruseTis interesebSi ar Sedis – rac ufro areulia garemo, miT ukeTesia misTvis. Tu davakvirdebiT statistikas, vnaxavT, ra xerxebiT gamdidrebuli miliarderebi hyavs ruseTsa da dasavleTs, amiT naTeli xdeba, vin rogor wyalSi iWers Tevzebs.
– sadaa is mijna, romlis iqiTac natom Tavisi Zala unda aamoqmedos?
– es Zalian martivi sakiTxia erTi SexedviT, Tumca, vfiqrob, masze bevrma ramem SeiZleba imoqmedos. natos wesdebis mexuTe muxli pirdapir aRniSnavs, rom nebismier natos wevr saxelmwifoze Tavdasxmis SemTxvevaSi amoqmeddeba meqanizmebi da miRebuli iqneba SeiaraRebuli Zalebis dacvis zomebi. aqedan gamomdinare, patara Tavdasxma an provokacia sakmarisi SeiZleba aRmoCndes natos Zalebis gaaqtiurebisTvis. ruseTi kargad acnobierebs Tavis SesaZleblobebs, Tumca agresias agrZelebs, ambobs, rom ar eSinia natos gaRizianebis. am SemTxvevaSi misi mizania ukrainis denacifikacia. dRes ase am qveynis mimarT moqmedebs, xval SeiZleba saqarTvelos, baltiispireTis qveynebis mimarTac ganxorcieldes msgavsi agresia, amitom dasavleTma unda gadawyvitos, sWirdeba aseTi msoflio wesrigi mas?! anu dasavleTi an aiZulebs ruseTs ukan daxevas, anda miscems saSualebas, Tavisi gavlenebi aRidginos. am kiTxvebze dasavleTs mouwevs pasuxis gacema. ar gamovricxav, rom Tuki ruseTi masobrivi ganadgurebis saSualebas mimarTavs, dasavleTsac mouwevs am mimarTulebiT zomebis miReba.
– xom ar Cndeba nato TamaSgare mdgomareobaSi?
– ara, da es ruseTmac icis. misma wevrma qveynebmac ician, rom nato iribadaa am procesSi CarTuli, Tundac iaraRis miwodebiT, garda amisa, ganixileba TviTmfrinavebis miwodeba ukrainisTvis, rac metyvelebs, rom CarTulia am procesSi. me maqvs amasTan dakavSirebiT Cemi azri, natos daxmarebis gareSe ukraina ukve damarcxebuli iqneboda. rogorc viciT, mas yovelmxriv exmarebian, rogorc samxedro TvalsazrisiT, ise finansurad.
– azrTa sxvaoba gamoiwvia saqarTvelos xelisuflebis poziciam ukrainis mxardaWeris TvalsazrisiT
– es politikurad delikaturi sakiTxia, amas istoria gansjis, Tumca vfiqrob, rom zomieri da politikurad gaazrebuli pozicia aqvs Cvens saxelmwifos, magram calkeul politikoss albaT ufro meti sicxade marTebda Tavisi poziciis gaJRerebisas, nu moeridebaT im poziciis dafiqsirebis, rac namdvilad aqvT.
– roca iqneba, es omic dasruldeba, magram misi ukrainisTvis sasurvelad dasruleba ra faqtorebzea damokidebuli?
– ukrainis gamarjveba calsaxad damokidebulia dasavleTis da, zogadad, aSS-is Ria mxardaWeraze. Tu iqneba mxardaWera, uwyveti momarageba, maSin gaimarjvebs, xolo rogorc ki moakldeba mxardaWera, rusuli samxedro manqana aucileblad daZlevs. amitomac natom, amerikam da ukrainis mokavSireebma momaragebis uwyveti jaWvis strategia unda SeimuSaon da es qveyana araviTar SemTxvevaSi ar unda miatovon aseT mdgomareobaSi. sxva SemTxvevaSi ukrainis saxelmwifo aRar iarsebebs, msoflio araprognozirebadi gaxdeba. gamodis, yvela did saxelmwifos SeeZleba STanTqas patara saxelmwifo da is samarTlebrivi wesrigi, rogoric gvaqvs dRes, faqtobrivad, aRar iarsebebs da davdgebiT 1945 wlis zRvarze, anu xelaxla unda davamyaroT wesrigi . . . ruseTi iseT msoflio wesrigze ar moawers xels, sadac misi interesebi ar iqneba gaTvaliswinebuli, dasavleTi ki ar Seegueba im garemoebas, rom gamarjvebuli ruseTis gverdiT vercerTi patara saxelmwifo, miT ufro, ruseTis mezobeli, ver iqneba usafrTxod.
– ra gavlena eqneba ruseTis gaZlierebas an fiaskos ukrainaze?
– Tu ruseTma ukrainaSi sawadels miaRwia, mTeli msoflio wesrigi dadgeba kiTxvis niSnis qveS da saqarTvelos ra momavali elis, veravin ityvis. mniSvnelovania, rom omi Sewydes da ruseTma pativi sces suverenuli ukrainis interesebs.
– dabolos, Cvenma qveyanam ra unda moimoqmedos, rom ruseTis xelaxeli agresiis obieqti ar gavxdeT?
– isev da isev, gawonasworebuli politikaa saWiro. msofliom unda dainaxos – Cven damoukideblobisTvis mebrZoli, dasavleTze orientirebuli qveyana varT da ar SeveguebiT im saerTaSoriso samarTlebriv Sedegebs, rac SeiZleba mohyves ukrainis dacemas da okupacias. Cven axlave unda vTqvaT, rom ruseTis aseT gamarjvebas Cven ar gaviziarebT, Tumca isic unda aRiniSnos, rom konfliqtSi SeiaraRebuli ZaliT ver CavereviT, ar vapirebT ZaliT Cveni problemebis mogvarebas, magram ar SeveguebiT ruseTis mier ukrainisa da saqarTvelos okupacias. ar unda daviSuroT Zalisxmeva ukraineli xalxis daxmarebisTvis. ukraina dRes ibrZvis Cveni momavlisTvis, usafrTxoebisaTvis da msoflios mSvidobisTvis.