“მეტი სისხლი დაიღვრება, მაგრამ რას ვიზამთ, თავისუფლება უსისხლოდ არ მოდის”
ხატია იაშვილი: 27 48 93 –
murman dumbaZe, yofili respublikeli, `emsaxure saqarTvelos~ damfuZnebeli, adamiani, romelic yvela mTavrobas udgas opoziciaSi, axlac ar kargavs imeds, rom erT dros misive nomer pirveli mteri mixeil saakaSvili, male gaTavisufldeba cixidan da Caudgeba ukraina-ruseTis oms saTaveSi. misi azriT, `miSa erTaderTi adamiania, romelmac kargad icis, rogor eomos ruseTs~. murman dumbaZe darwmunebulia, rom ukrainam ukve moipova gamarjveba da sadacaa evrokavSirSic Seva. saqarTvelo ki darCeba gareT, radgan sakuTari mTavroba uSlis xels Caebas samarTlian omSi da sisxliT moipovos Tavisufleba.
– batono murman, ra xdeba ruseT-ukrainis frontze?
– araferi axali iq ar xdeba. ruseTma 21-saukuneSic daamtkica, rom agresoria da rom mis imperiul madas da moTxovnilebebs sazRvari ar aqvs. man jer kidev 2008 wels daiwyo saqarTvelos winaaRmdeg brZola, 2014 wels – ukrainis winaaRmdeg, waiRo yirimi da . . . agrZelebs mitacebebs, suverenuli saxelmwifoebis xelyofas. mokled rom vTqvaT, axali axlac araferi xdeba, ruseTi Cveul ampluaSia, rac ar gvikvirs im qveynebs, romlebsac araerTxel dagvesxa Tavs da wagvglija teritoriebi.
– axali is aris, rom amjerad, koleqtiurma dasavleTma xma amoiRo da damangreveli sanqciebi dauwesa amden xans dausjelad gadarCenil ruseTs. isicaa, rom putinma jerac ver SeZlo ukrainis damorCileba, aravin eloda amxela winaaRmdegobas.
– didia ukraina da 40 milioni hyavs mosaxleoba. ase ioli rom ar iqneboda putinisTvis amxela saxelmwifos xelyofa, es unda scodnoda. albaT, imedi hqonda, SiSiT damnebdebiano, magram gauwies medgari winaaRmdegoba da amiT daamtkices, rom sakuTar qveyanas aravis daanebebdnen. am etapze ukrainis dapyroba praqtikulad SeuZlebelia. dRes ukve Tamamad SegviZlia ganvacxadoT, rom ruseTma ukrainasTan omi waago.
– amis gancxadebis safuZvels ra gaZlevT, jer xom araferia cnobili?
– aq sxva finali ar arsebobs. miT umetes, rom ukrainas mxars uWers mTeli civilizebuli samyaro, dawyebuli evropiT, amerikis SeerTebuli StatebiT, iaponiiT da damTavrebuli sxva mowinave qveynebiT. ase rom, ruseTi izolirebulia. is rom moskovi am oms waagebs, gasagebia, magram Cveni amocanaa ara mxolod gamarjveba, aramed, ruseTis, rogorc birTvuli saxelmwifos arsebobis dasruleba. is unda ganiaraRdes da gaqres dedamiwis rukidan. cxadia, vgulisxmob ara ers, aramed mis SeiaraRebas, agresias da diqtaturas. ruseTi safrTxes warmoadgens msofliosTvis, rogorc birTvuli iaraRis mflobeli. aqedan gamomdinare, mas unda CamoerTvas msgavsi SeiaraRebis ufleba. mxolod amis Semdeg amoisunTqavs mTeli samyaro. sxvanairad, am saxelmwifos verafriT gavaCumebT. sul iqneba misgan problemebi. mowinave qveynebis politikuri elita unda Seikras da amaze SeTanxmdes. msoflios birTvuli omis saSiSroebis winaSe ayeneben rusi politikosebi da gaTavxedebuli samxedro Cinosnebi. rodesac ibombeba mSvidobiani qalaqebi, sacxovrebeli korpusebi, sabavSvo baRebi, samSobiaro saxlebi, ixoceba bavSvebi, amas sxvagvar Sefasebas ver mivcemT. rac ufro gaxangrZlivdeba omi, miT ufro meti Sansia, rom Zalian cudad daasrulon putinma da misma damqaSebma arseboba. darwmunebuli var, bevri dro aRar darCaT, maTi saqmeebi mivida haagis sasamarTlomde. rogorc wesi, ase amTavreben diqtatorebi sakuTar cxovrebas.
– sad aris imis garantia, rom CixSi moqceuli putini ar wamoiwyebs birTvul oms?
– gasagebia, magram Tuki birTvuli iaraRi amoqmeddeba, maSin aRaraferi gveqneba saTqmeli, dedamiwa da civilizacia ganadgurdeba. faqtia, rom raRac ibadeba, kvdeba, iwyeba, sruldeba da kacobriobac ar aris gamonaklisi. gamodis, Cven mivaRwieT ganviTarebis zRvars, arsebobis raRac etaps, romelsac veRar gadavabijeT da . . . mokled, daiwyeba apokalifsi. principSi, Tuki amotrialdeba samyaro, arc ruseTi gadarCeba. aqedan gamomdinare, meeWveba, rom putini aseT sigiJeze, sakuTari eris da msoflios mkvlelobaze wavides. Tumca, giJebs ras gaugeb, iqneb mesiad warmoidginos Tavi.
– anu, mainc unda gveSinodes atomuri omis?
– ara, ruseTSi marto putini da misi generaliteti xom ar aris. arc am xalxs unda omi da amxela ubedureba. me mainc mimaCnia, rom Tavad rusebi mouvlian sakuTar liders da daumorCileblobas gamoucxadeben. marTalia, aseTi xalxi sakmaod cotaa ruseTSi, magram aris da darwmunebuli var, isini win aRudgebian atomur oms, Tuki amaze wasvlas gadawyvets putini.
– aseTi safrTxis miuxedavad, dasavleTi cocxali ZaliT mainc ar exmareba ukrainas.
– isini natos wevrebi arian da ar surT oficialurad CarTviT, omi gadazardon mesame msoflioSi, radgan maSin marTlac gaWirdeba gakontroleba, Tumca, realurad, Cven momswre varT mesame msoflio omis, romelic ukrainis, belarusis da ruseTis monawileobiT mimdinareobs. rodesac mTeli civilizebuli samyaro upirispirdeba ruseTs, faqtia, rom araerTi qveyana ibrZvis ukrainelebTan erTad. marTalia, amas ar aqvs oficialuri saxe, magram yvelam icis, iq rac xdeba realurad. igive ruseTsac exmareba belarusi da siria. es niSnavs, rom sxva saxelmwifoebic aran Careuli samxedro konfliqtSi. am fonze evropa da aSS Ria oms ar iwyeben, es maTi politikuri gadawyvetilebaa da niSnavs, rom aseTi formiT ukeT SeZleben ruseTis damarcxebas, igive ukrainelebis xeliT. dasavleTi exmareba ukrainas sainformacio saSualebebiT, moralurad, sanqciebiT da SeiaraRebiT. rac Seexeba iq individualurad Casul samxedroebs, romlebsac ar aqvT oficialuri statusi, isini sakmaod did saqmes akeTeben. swored maTi daxmarebiT dgas ukraina jer kidev fexze.
– ekonomikuri krizisi Seexo ara mxolod ruseTs, aramed evropasac. ramden xans gauZleben es qveynebi ekonomikis vardnas?
– bunebrivia, rom SezRudvebi iqneba, raRacaze uaris Tqma aucilebelia iseTi monstris dasamarcxeblad, rogoric ruseTi da misi damqaSebia. aqve minda aRvniSno, rom saqarTvelos xelisufleba ver iCens sakmaris iniciativas ukrainis mxardasaWerad. neitralitetis SenarCunebis mcdeloba am SemTxvevaSi ar gamodgeba, radgan omSi damnaSave ruseTia da saqarTvelos mTavrobam unda dagmos misi agresia.
– saqarTvelos mTavroba xom yvela mxriv exmareba ukrainas?
– ara, es ase ar aris. saqarTvelos mTavrobis ZiriTadi pozicia Cans misi rezoluciebidan, rom sahaero sivrce ar dauketa agresor qveyanas. saqarTvelom ar dauwesa sanqciebi ruseTs, iseve, rogorc aSS-ma da evropam. aqedan Cans, rom iCenen sifrTxiles ruseTis mimarT.
– Tqven fiqrobT, rom sifrTxilis gamoCena CvenTvis miuRebelia, aseTive sifrTxiles iCenen sxva qveynebic, maT Soris, igive evropa da aSS.
– imaTi sifrTxile sxvaa, Cveni ki gadaWrilia simxdaleSi, rac ukiduresad cud eWvebs aRZravs Cveni qveynis misamarTiT. SiSiT mopovebuli Tavisufleba aravis unaxavs, Tavisufleba mxolod brZoliT moipoveba. am omSi ukraina gaimarjvebs, Tavisuflebis moyvaruli xalxi gaimarjvebs da politikuri ruka gadaTamaSdeba. am procesSi saqarTvelo unda darCes ukrainis da misi partniorebis mxareze, raTa ar dakargos amdeni sisxliT da vaebiT miRweuli Tavisufleba. rac ufro mWidrod viqnebiT ukrainelebTan, rac ufro met politikur, ekonomikur, samxedro solidarobas gamoviCenT, ukeTesi perspeqtivebi gveqneba samomavlod.
– ukrainasTan omis kvaldakval, saqarTvelosken wamosvlac aqvs ganzraxuli putinso.
– Tuki ruseTi gaimarjvebs, bunebrivia, Semdeg ara mxolod saqarTvelos, aramed natos wevr qveynebsac miakiTxavs, baltiispireTs, poloneTs da sxv. magram Tu damarcxda, Semdeg ras vSvrebiT? xedavT, rogor gvelaparakeba dRes ukraina. maSin sad iqneba Cveni adgili? ar unda SegveSindes ruseTis. damtkicda, rom yovlisSemZle ar aris, misi uZlevelobis miTi daimsxvra ukrainaSi. dRes ukve omis 23-dRea, ganadgurebulia rusuli jari, misi teqnika, aRar darCa oficroba, verc erTi qalaqi ver aiRo, ekonomika nulamdea dasuli, partniorebic Semoefanta, CineTmac ver gabeda misi daxmareba. dedamiwaze absoluturad TviTkmari saxelmwifo ar arsebobs. rac unda mdidari iyos ruseTi resursebiTa da wiaRiseuliT, 21-e saukuneSi gauWirdeba saerTaSoriso brendebis da finansuri organizaciebis gareSe arseboba. davaneboT Tavi navTobs da gazs, instagramis gaTiSvac ki seriozul kriziss gamoiwvevs. jer kidev arTmeven Tavs, magram ukve erT TveSi uZlieresad daartyams sanqciebi Crdilour imperias da maSin ras izams moskovi, sainteresoa. aqedan gamomdinare, Rrmad var darwmunebuli, rom putins daamarcxeben ara mxolod ukrainelebi da evropa-amerika, aramed sakuTari moqalaqeebi.
– opoziciis mier ucxour mediaSi mTavrobis kritikaze ras gvetyviT, ramdenad marTali arian, aseT sensitiur Temaze saqveynod rom saubroben, Tundac dekanoiZis gancxadeba rom gavaanalizoT . . .
– mogvwons Tu ar mogvwons, es aris politikuri Sefaseba, romelic dadasturebul faqts asaxavs. dekanoiZesac rom ar eTqva, kolaboracia aSkarad saxezea. rodesac ruseTs mTeli civilizebuli samyaro sanqciebs uwesebs, Sen ki rZeze da yvelze elaparakebi da misgan savaWro sargeblis miRebas apireb, es niSnavs, rom seriozul sqemebs awyob. ilaparakebs amaze opozicia, aba ras izams. meorec: `ar unda vamxiloT xelisufleba dasavleTTan~, ar aris swori midgoma. Cven unda vamxiloT yvela, vinc imsaxurebs, unda vTqvaT simarTle. Tavad opoziciis ZiriTadi valdebuleba swored es aris. rodesac qveynis parlamenti ver axerxebs agresor qveyanas agresori uwodos da es daafiqsiros SaviT-TeTrze, maSin ar unda gagikvirdeT dekanoiZis gamosvla imis Sesaxeb, rom qarTuli politikuri istebliSmentis ZiriTadi azri gadis imaze – ver daamarcxon putini.
– Tqven axla imasac damimtkicebT, rom saakaSvili unda gaTavisufldes cixidan, raTa gaeSuros zelenskis dasaxmareblad . . .
– salome zurabiSvili katastroful Secdomas uSvebs, rom ar aTavisuflebs mas. SesaZloa, bevri ar dameTanxmos, igive opoziciuri partiebi, magram me mainc vityvi simarTles: saakaSvilis cixidan gamoSvebis gareSe, veraviTar erovnul Serigebaze laparaki ver iqneba. saakaSvils rom hyavdes murman dumbaZesaviT 100 mxardamWeri, eg araferi, miSas mxardamWeri ki, oficialuri monacemebiT aris qveynis amomrCevlis erTi mesamedi, rac niSnavs, rom yoveli mesame amomrCeveli saqarTveloSi saakaSvils uWers mxars. bunebrivia, veraviTar morigebasa da dawynarebaze ver iqneba laparaki. amitom vambob, rom zurabiSvilma xelidan gauSva Sansi, Tavi daemkvidrebina saqarTvelos istoriaSi, rogorc brZen, marTal prezidents. ara uSavs, arc ivaniSvili da arc zurabiSvili, male aRar iqnebian xelisuflebaSi, radgan msoflio icvleba, magram me gaZlevT garantias, rom mixeil saakaSvili darCeba ara mxolod qarTul, aramed msoflio politikaSi.
– Semosul rus moqalaqeebze ras gvetyviT?
– aq araordinaruli viTarebaa da Zalian frTxilad unda viyoT. am etapze ver davuSvebT maTTvis sazRvrebis daketvas, magram rodesac omi dasruldeba, yvela mxriv unda vecadoT, rom an samSobloSi davabrunoT an gavuSvaT im qveynebSi, sadac moisurveben. mgoni, isini aq didxans mainc ar darCebian, TavianTi fuli da biznesebi aqvT gadasarCeni. vinc aq darCeba, isini unda gadavamowmoT yvela mxriv, rasac akeTeben kidec saTanado organoebi da ise davtovoT. mogexsenebaT, qarTveli verasodes ambobda uars verc stumarze da ver xizanze.
– mainc ramden xans gastans saomari moqmedebebi?
– eqspertebis azriT, did xans ar gagrZeldeba, ukve meoTxe molapaarkeba Catarda, male igegmeba putinis da zelenskis Sexvedra. putini imitom daTanxmda am Sexvedras, rom mixvda, sakuTari armia veRar gaZlebs mets, rom misi Zlevamosileba dasrulebulia da unda saxe mainc SeinarCunos, rasac cxadia, ver SeZlebs. mTavaria, ukrainam ar dauSvas mciredi Secdomac ki neitralitetis sakiTxSi, ar unda daTmos arc erTi teritoria. meti sisxli daiRvreba, magram ras vizamT, Tavisufleba usisxlod ar modis.
