დავით ჩხარტიშვილი: ფსონები ბევრად მაღალია, ვიდრე უკრაინის ნეიტრალიტეტი და ბანდერა-შუხევიჩის დეჰეროიზაცია
ხატია იაშვილი: 27 48 93 –
gTavazobT intervius publicist daviT CxartiSvilTan, romelic aanalizebs oms da gvaxsenebs kievis ruseTis Soreul istorias.
– urTierTgamomricxavi informaciebi modis frontis wina xazidan, rogor TvliT, vis aqvs prioriteti?
– rusebs. aqve aRvniSnav – uamravi mediasaSualeba da dainteresebuli piri cdilobs, sakuTari, diletanturi interpretacia misces ukrainul movlenebs. amitom odnav Soridan daviwyeb. mimdinare rusul-ukrainul konfliqts ori ganzomileba aqvs, wminda adamianuri, mSvidobiani mosaxleobis msxverpls vgulisxmob da geopolitikuri, sadac pragmatuli gaTvlebi da msoflios xelaxali gadanawileba mimdinareobs. ar dagaviwydeT, rom procesi saqarTvelosac uqadis teqtonikur Zvrebs, politikur-media ZalTa gadaformatirebas, amitom am procesebis anatomia zedmiwevniT unda vicodeT, igive dReSi rom ar aRmovCndeT. axali mexsierebis konstruirebam ukraineli xalxisTvis moitana omi, gaucxoeba aRmosavleTsa da dasavleT ukrainas Soris. amiT isargebla rusma, es calsaxaa, magram Tu konfliqts istoriul WrilSi ar ganvixilavT, formalizmis tyveobaSi davrCebiT. komiqsebsa da 90-ianebis `boevikebze~ aRzrdil pirebs es Zalian uWirT. isini SeCveuli arian martiv Sav-TeTr sqemebs da eWedebian iq, sadac rTuli azrovnebis, fenomenologiuri sfero iwyeba. amitomac xmauroben xolme yvelaze mets, iyeneben tabus, naxevarsimarTles, stereotipebsa da dazuTxul, saakaSvilis droindel mantrebs. mokled, socialuri fsiqologiis wiaRsvlebSi rom ar gadavvardeT, istorias davubrundebi. aRmosavleT slavuri eris bedukuRmarTobaze bevri iTbobs xels. Cemi azriT, es orive – ukraineli da rusi xalxis tragediaa, romelic upasuxismgeblo politikosebis da civsisxliani strategebis gamoisobiT datrialda.
– modiT, maSin kievis istorias gadavwvdeT, dRemde ar ganxilula Cvens gazeTSi es Tema dawvrilebiT.
– kievi xom rusuli qalaqebis dedaa, kiev-peCoris lavra ki ruseTisTvis igivea, rac gelaTis akademia – CvenTvis. me-15 saukunidan Cven, qarTvelebi, ar vcxovrobdiT erTad, magram es ar niSnavs, rom Cveni qveynis nawilebi aRar iyo saqarTvelo. asevea iqac. Tu CavuRrmavdebiT, naTlad davinaxavT srul suraTs. qarTuli da rusuli miwebis daSoreba droSic ki emTxveva – mizezic saerToa, monRolebis Semoseva. ase magaliTad, urdos gaqceuli kievis mitropoliti maqsimi 1299 wels gadadis vladimirSi, me-14 saukuneSi ki moskovis aRzevebis gamo, sruliad ruseTis (anu kievis) axal mitropolits iq gadaaqvs rezidencia. 1442 wels msoflio patriarqi xels awers florenciis unias kaTolikur eklesiasTan. moskovSi am gaerTianebas ar aRiareben, berZeni mitropoliti isidore ki brundeba kievSi uniis xelmoweris Semdeg. sxvaTa Soris, qarTuli eklesiis warmomadgenlebma, romlebic eswrebodnen im krebas Suagul evropaSi, myisve mtkice uari ganucxades paps da berZnebs. 1448 wels moskovis ruseTSi airCies pirveli rusi mitropoliti iona, romelic pirveli ganxeTqilebis mizezi gaxda kievis ruseTsa da moskovis rusebs Soris. am droisTvis, CvenTanac Cndeba 2 avtokefaluri eklesia – centriT qarTlsa da afxazeTSi. 1290 wels qarTuli erTiani eklesiidan gamoiyo afxazeTis sakaTolikoso, romlis iurisdiqcia mTel dasavleT saqarTveloze vrceldeboda, centriT biWvinTaSi. 1811 wels aRmosavleT saqarTvelos da afxazeTis gauqmebuli eklesiebi (1814 w.) aRdga erTiani saeklesio sxeulis saxiT 1917 wels. am dros Tanamedrove ukrainis teritoriaze movlenebi viTardeboda Semdegnairad: polonur kolonizaciasTan erTad, daiwyo kaTolikuri eklesiis eqspansiac, romlis mizani iyo marTlmadideblebis daTanxmeba uniaze. 1596 wels ukve brestSi xeli moewera axal unias, romelmac kievis mitropolia gaauqma. ase gaCnda ukrainaSi berZnul-kaTolikuri eklesia (uniatebi), formiT marTlmadidebluri, SigTavsiT – kaTolikuri. marTlmadidebloba, anu rogorc imJamindel ukrainelebSi eZaxdnen `rusuli rwmena~, xdeba ideologiur fundamentad poloneTis moZalebis winaaRmdeg. am konfliqtis umaRles wertilad ki iqca bogdan xmelnickis 1648 wlis ajanyeba, ris Sedegadac, 1654 wels q. pereslavSi xeli moewera SeTanxmebas zaporoJiel kazakebsa da moskovis mefes Soris. Sedegebis mixedviT, kazakebis mier poloneTisTvis warTmeuli yvela teritoria gadadioda moskovis samefos mfarvelobis qveS – marTlmadideblebiTurT! roca istoria da konteqsti iciT, sxva optikiT xedavT da sxvagvarad gvesaxeba iqauri problemebis gadaWrac, magram amJamindeli saxelisuflebo ukrainuli elita da qarTuli partiuli televiziebi aseT ganmartebebs ar iReben. isini, erTi mxriv, arian xorci xorcTaganni sxva, 1939 wels stalinis mier ZiriTad ukrainaze SemoerTebuli, uniaturi, dasavluri ukrainis memkvidreebi, meore mxriv ki, ubralod, uvicebi.
– rac Seexeba Tanamedrove ukrainis istebliSments?
– ukrainis am segmentma Caigdo xelT 2014 wels politikuri Zalaufleba kievSi da miipatiJes saakaSvili amaliTurT, rasac mohyva konfliqtebi da yirimis okupacia, riTac isargebla rusma da casus belli-ad (omis dawyebis formaluri mizezi) gamoiyena. gana ambobda vinme, rom ruseTi holandiis dari, mSvidobiani, liberaluri qveyanaa? rom altruistTa klubia da ara mtacebeli imperia? unda icode, rogor da ra elis Sens ukan mdgar qalaqebs, qalebs da bavSvebs. es, maSin, Tu saxelmwifo moRvawe da ara enagrZeli politikani xar.
– Tqven pretenziebi gqondaT telegadacemebis mimarT.
– diax, nebismieri faqti konteqstSi unda ganixilo, winaaRmdeg SemTxvevaSi, srul suraTs ver aCveneb. amiT sargebloben CvenTan televiziebi da lamis, totalur tyuilze arian gadasulebi; ase magaliTad, CarTav romelime qarTul partiul televizias, mousmen `nacebis~, an maTTan afilirebuli romelime partiis spikers da iseTi STabeWdileba grCeba, rom male moskovs aiRebs ukrainuli armia, putini ki bunkerSi caxcaxebs, rac mtknari sicruea. simarTle sapirispiroa. ai, Tundac, vcadoT da erTad movaxdinoT qarTul mediaSi gabatonebuli narativis dekonstruqcia. magaliTad, viRac `eqspertma~ sadRac Tqva, rom putini 2-3 dReSi aiRebda kievs da gegma Cauvarda. ahyvnen sxva `eqspertebic~, qarTuli mediaplatformebic TuTiyuSebiviT imeoreben am feiks da ukve muSa-glexi, makleri, kurtizani qali, partaqtivisti da diasaxlisic ki Rlicinebs putinis gegmaze. metic, goneba adamianis isea awyobili, rom erT istorias mohyveba meore da . . . masobrivi cnobiereba aanonsebs saakaSvilis dabrunebas prezidentad, Tan ruseTis CamoSlasac elis. masobriv cnobierebaSi es feiki aisaxa ise, rom ruseTi agebs, qalaqebs ver iRebs, rusuli jari bardeba ukrainuls – tyved, mTeli diviziebiT, teqnika amortizebulia, rusuli opozicia kremlis misadgomebTanaa, `nacebi~ marTlebi yofilan, taliavini styuis da a.S. damatebiT, roca mTeli qarTuli socialuri qseli oficialuri kievis targetuli reklamis zemoqmedebis qveS imyofeba da kantikuntad afeTqebul rusul tankebs Tu Camogdebul vertmfrenebs aCveneben, rusuli mxridan ki siCumea gasagebi mizezebis gamo, rTulia, ar daijero zRapris.
– Tqveni azriT, ra xdeba sinamdvileSi?
– sinamdvileSi, aravin icoda putinis gegma arc maSin da arc dRes, ramdenzea gaWimuli droSi es omi ruseTis generaluri Stabis gegmis mixedviT. umsxvilesi, yvelaze brZolisunariani ukrainuli sajariso danayofebi moqceulia alyaSi mariupolTan, qalaqebis aRebasac aravin apirebda dawyebiT etapze da miT ufro 2-3 dReSi. ase magaliTad, granadis asaRebad, 1000-kaciani jariT, amerikelebs 2 kvira dasWirdaT, erays 1 Tvis ganmavlobaSi utevdnen, es – 700 000-iani koaliciiT da a.S. maSasadame, romeli WkuaTmyofeli gaTvlida gegmas 2-3 dReze 45-milioniani qveynis mimarT? mokled, is brZolebi, romlebsac vxedavdiT ukrainuli qalaqebis quCebSi, calkeuli moieriSe danayofebis Seteva iyo placdarmebis dasakaveblad, raTa ZiriTad armias dasayrdeni hqonoda da a.S. putinis amocanaa, SuaSi gaxliCos ukraina, sazRvari gaasworos zustad im perimetrze, sadac ukraina pirobiTad dasavlur da aRmosavlur nawilebad, 1939 wlidan iyofa. Semdeg ki, rodesac bolomde daicleba qalaqebi mSvidobiani mosaxleobisgan, taqtikuri iaraRi ukve ara ase – wertilovnad, aramed masobrivad gamoiyenos, rasac, marTlac rom, 2-3 dReSi kievis dacema da mTavrobis cvla mohyveba.
– rodis Sedgeba molaparakebebi prezidentebs Soris?
– Financial Times-ma gamoaqveyna versia, rom ruseTi da kievi 15-punqtian SeTanxmebasTan axlos arian. iq dawerili savaraudo SeTanxmebiT, ruseTma Tavisi jari unda gaiyvanos kievis dapirebis sanacvlod – rom neitraluri qveyana iqneba, Tanac, rusuli ena miiRebs oficialur statuss. ramdenad Seesabameba es simarTles? aba, ra giTxraT, dRes arcerTi wyaro aRaraa sando, swored rom mand gamoqveynda, rom rusi daxmarebas sTxovs CineTs, mere daamates, rom uari miiRo rusma CineTisgan. Tumca maleve gamovida CineTis sagareo uwyebis oficialuri warmomadgeneli da tyuilSi daadanaSaula gazeTi. vfiqrob, ruseTs cudad ar aqvs saqme. maSinac ki, Tu kievi aRiarebs yirims, doneckisa da luganskis saxalxo respublikebs, omgamovlil ruseTs es dids arafers aZlevs. omamde, iqneb daTanxmebuliyo putini, magram axla ara. fsoni bevrad maRalia dRes, vidre ukrainis neitraliteti da bandera-SuxeviCis deheroizacia.
– prezident zelenskis yvelgan aRfrTovanebiT xvdebian, magram isev ver Cauketes ca . . .
– zelenski da misi amala Soubiznesidanaa mosuli im pirobiT, rom Seasrulebda `minskis SeTanxmebas~ da a.S. magram rogorc ki daiwyo Tavisi gegmis ganxorcieleba, daupirispirdnen iqauri nacionalistebi – banderas da SuxeviCis fanklubi, dRegamoSvebiT CiraRdnebiT faSistur msvlelobebs rom awyobdnen kievSi. maT ultimatumi wauyenes zelenskis, misi ebrauli warmoSoba gauxsenes da sikvdiliT dasjac ki uwinaswarmetyveles. ukeT rom mixvdeT, rasTan gvaqvs saqme, getyviT – Cveni `nacionalebi~ maT nacionalistebTan SedarebiT sabavSvo baRia. raRac etapze zelenski paramilitaristuli Zalebis mZevali gaxda da principiT `CaTrevas Cayola sjobia,~ maTi lekaloebiTve imoZrava. Sedegic dauyovnebliv dadga – ukraina miwasTanaa gasworebuli ararealuri molodinebis, `niadagobrivi~ miTis aRorZinebis da militaristuli survilebis gamo. dRes mas arc natoSi Rebuloben, arc moieriSe TviTmfrinavebs awvdian da arc teritorias uTmobs samxedro tvirTebis gasatareblad ramdenime evropuli qveyana da a.S.
– ruseTi ar emorCileba haagis sasamarTlos, ra berketebi rCeba evropis sabWos mis SesaCereblad?
– araviTari. saerTod datova ruseTma evropis sabWo da es Tavad sabWosTvis aris ufro cudi, vidre rusisTvis. Tu ase gagrZelda, es organizacia male saerTod ar iarsebebs. evrokavSiris wevrebis garda, mxolod ramdenime saxelmwifoa masSi gawevrianebuli: ruseTi, TurqeTi, ukraina, azerbaijani, somxeTi, saqarTvelo, moldova. axla ki, rodesac ruseTi gavida, TurqeTs ki saerTod aRar ainteresebs evropelebis azri, Sesabamisad, evropis sabWos aRmzrdelobiTi misiac qreba.
– evrokavSiric ufunqciod rCeba?
– aqac araa martivad saqme. misi qveynebis nawili ruseTTan separatul molaparakebebs awarmoebs, eflirtaveba, axal savaWro urTierTobebs amyarebs. zogic, saerTod aSkara mokavSirea putinis. sanqciebis Sesaxeb ki azri, rbilad rom vTqva, gayofilia. iqauri meqanizmebi mogexsenebaT – srul konsensuss moiTxovs qveynebs Soris, winaaRmdeg SemTxvevaSi, deklaracias ar scdeba nebismieri muqara.
– miiCneven, rom zelenskim ukraina aqcia ruseTisa da natos omis poligonad. aseve, SekiTxva daisva kievis natosgan distancirebasTan dakavSirebiT. SesaZlebelia Tu ara, rom amgvar ritorikas zelenski ruseTTan molaparakebebis taqtikisTvis iyenebdes?
– pirvel kiTxvas rac Seexeba, ase gamodis – faqtebi jiutia. droa SeveCvioT erT martiv WeSmaritebas: is, rasac amboben maRali tribunebidan, rodi Seesabameba namdvil Canafiqrsa da miT ufro, qmedebebs. sad iyo maSin saerTaSoriso samarTali da sanqciebis qomagebi, roca iugoslaviis, erayis, libiisa Tu avRaneTis xaliCiseburi dabombva mimdinareobda? ratom dumdnen? warmoidgineT, irlandiam rom moiTxovos inglisuri enis akrZalva, koleqtiuri usafrTxoebis SeTanxmebis organizaciaSi gawevrianeba, raketebis ganlageba didi britaneTis yurisZirSi, anda israelis mier mokluli iraneli mecnierebi gaixseneT da a.S. mTeli es saerTaSoriso samarTlis ritorika sasacilod ar eyofodaT iqaur `jingoistebs~. meore kiTxvas rac Seexeba, Tavad zelenskim Tqva: `natoSi Sesvla ar SegviZlia. es simarTlea da unda vaRiaroT. moxaruli var, rom Cveni xalxi iwyebs amis gagebas~. taqtikas rac Seexeba, dRes zelenskis mxne satelevizio imijis miuxedavad, ar etaqtikeba, radganac ukrainis yofna-aryofnis da piradad misi likvidaciis sakiTxi dgas dRis wesrigSi. dasavleTic, anglosaqsonuri samyaros garda, aSkarad daiRala da sTavazobs zelenskis, miiRos ruseTis pirobebi. ukrainis saprezidento ofisidan informaciam gaJona, germaniis kanclerma Solcma da safrangeTis prezidentma makronmac SesTavazes danebeba. israelis premier-ministrma benetmac Riad mosTxova zavis dadeba rusuli pirobebiT. mokled, rTulad aqvs zelenskis saqme, imaze rTulad, vidre aq warmoudgenia mavans.
– saqarTvelos mTavrobis pozicias rac Seexeba . . .
– RmerTma qnas, im scenarSi, rac axla ukrainis irgvliv trialebs, TamaSgare davrCeT bolomde. axla mTavaria, ar movxvdeT didi qveynebis yuradRebis epicentrSi. es CvenTvisaa saqarTvelo samyaros centri, Torem didi moTamaSeebisTvis paiki, xurdaa, romelic SeiZleba gacvalo, moisrolo, gayido an, ubralod, gatexo da namcecebi miisakuTro. axla Cveni erovnuli interesia, ar davuSvaT rusuli intervencia saqarTveloSi. bevri Zalaa saqarTvelos brZolis placdarmad gadaqceviT dainteresebuli rogorc qveynis SigniT, ise gareT. RaribaSvilis gadawyvetilebac drouli iyo, vSiSob, imdenad adekvaturi, rom misi premierobidan CamoSorebis mcdeloba gaaTmagebuli iqneba. am etapze es miRwevadi iyo militaristul ritorikaze civi uariT. imasac ityvian – `natos qveynebma amdeni sikeTe mogvitana, ukrainac strategiuli partnioria, gvexmareboda, fuli Cado, jari agviSena~ . . . nu daujerebT am netarebs. budas moswonda erTi ambis moyola: sofelSi xuTi suleli dadioda, TavebiT uzarmazari navi gadahqondaT. rodesac mizezi hkiTxes, sulelebma upasuxes, rom am naviT didi mdinare gadacures da ar SeuZliaT umadurobis gamomJRavneba – Cven maradiulad varT davalebuli navis winaSeo. 2010 wlis 6 seqtembers gaJRerebuli putinis naTqvami gamaxsenda: `odesme saqarTvelom, afxazeTma da oseTma erTad unda gadawyviton TavianTi samomavlo urTierTobebis forma da ar vici, iqneba Tu ara es urTierTobebi saxelmwifoTaSorisi~. amisTvis, albaT, putini natoSi gawevrianebaze uaris Tqmas da mWidro samxedro-politikur TanamSromlobas moiTxovs. savaraudod, SemogvTavazebs raRac Sualedurs – `finlandizaciasa~ da evraziul kavSirSi gawevrianebas Soris. ai, raze unda vifiqroT da risTvis unda viyoT mzad dRes.
– vis ekisreba pasuxismgebloba daRvrili sisxlisTvis – natos, zelenskis, ruseTs Tu . . . samives erTad?
– zelenskis mrCeveli oleqsi arestoviCic ki acxadebs, rom ukrainaSi rusuli jarebis SeWris erT-erTi mizezi yofili xelisuflebis mier natos wevrobis kursis konstituciiT gamyareba iyo: `petro poroSenkom icoda, rom nato arasdros migviRebda. axla ki ukrainis winaaRmdeg ganxorcielebul samxedro agresiaSi ukanaskneli wili ekisrebaT maT, vinc miiRo da xeli Seuwyo konstituciaSi am normis Setanas~.
– ruseTis mokavSireebi ar Canan . . .
– aleqsandre III-s ekuTvnis sityvebi: `ruseTs mxolod ori mokavSire hyavs – misi armia da sazRvao Zalebi~. mas mere didad araferi Secvlila rusis fsiqotipSi. ise ki, CineTi da indoeTic, sxva aradasavluri qveynebic umagreben moralurad zurgs. meti am etapze ar mgonia, sWirdebodes da Tu dasWirda, darwmunebuli var, CineTi ar aaridebs mis samokavSireo valdebulebebs Tavs. dasturad Tundac baidensa da si Zinpinis Soris oriode dRis win gamarTuli satelefono saubaric gamodgeba. baideni ki Seecada daSinebas, magram CineTis liderma miugo: `Tqven ukrainaSi agzavniT iaraRs da sikvdils, Cven ki iq aTasobiT tona humanitarul marags vagzavniT~.
– ras ityviT aq Semosuli ruseTis moqalaqeebis nakadze?
– amasTan dakavSirebiT vityvi, rom yovlad miuRebelia is aRviraxsnili qsenofobiuri kampania, rac iRvreba qarTuli partiuli televiziebidan. samxedro propagandis anabanaa, rom mowinaaRmdegis dehumanizacia unda moaxdino. gaixseneT, ra epiTetebiT amkoben rus moqalaqeebs. Zalze delikaturi Temaa da mTavrobis mcdeloba – `miSistur~ arxebs aekrZalos diskriminaciis propaganda, ar mimaCnia sakmarisad, Tumca Tavs Sevikavebdi im meTodebze saubrisgan, rac unda gatardes problemis aRmosafxvrelad, romelic didia da egzistencialurad saSiSi qarTuli saxelmwifosTvis.
– ra gvelis win?
– mimdinareobs msoflios xelaxali gadanawileba, me-17 saukunis vestfaliis zavis, venis, ialtis da 90-ianebis liberaluri hegemoniis rRveva, gadaformatireba, Cven ki moumzadebeli davrCiT, dagvaviwyda kacobriobis realuri istoria da davyabuldiT zRaprebs. arada, didi saxelmwifoebis Tanacxovrebis wesebi arasdros yofila altruistTa klubis ganawesi, rogorc amas `enjeoSnikebi~ gvaswavlian yvela qarTuli partiuli mediaplatformidan. saqarTveloSic daiwyeba Zalian cudi procesebi, Tu imZlavra miSizmma, mis CaxSobas ki jer piri ar uCans, radganac `ocneba~ konceptualur doneebze paeqrobas `nacionalebs~ ver uwevs, maTi diskusiidanac ver gamodis bolomde. calkeuli pirebi, Tugind umaRlesi Sreebidan, aseT rTul misias kompetenturi gundis gareSe ver gaumklavdebian. saWiroa, arasamTavroboebi, televiziebi, axali doqtrina da sakuTriv `ocnebis~ rigebis gawmenda `miSistebisgan~.
