,,მხოლოდ უკრაინელებს ძალუძთ რუსების დამარცხება, რადგან ძირფესვიანად იცნობენ ერთ დროს ძმად შერაცხულ მტერს”
მარიამ ხითარიშვილი 27 48 93 –
ruseT-ukrainis omis fonze, isev ganaxlda oseTsa da afxazeTTan dakavSirebuli, jer kidev mouSuSebeli iarebi. TavisTavad Cndeba kiTxva, ratom davkargeT es teritoriebi, ra xdeba am etapze iq da ramdenad aucilebelia omi, Tuki mainc unda daTmo Seni qveynis nawili.
am sakiTxze gTavazobT intervius qarTul-osuri arasamTavrobo organizaciis `mSvidoba yovelTa~ TavmjdomaresTan, romelmac kargad icis, ra xdeboda da ra xdeba oseTTan damokidebulebaSi. lali puxaeva wlebia, rac saqarTveloSi cxovrobs. igi iyo oseTis de iure mTavrobis wevri, ministri, aqtiurad erTveboda moZme xalxTan dialogSi da maqsimalurs akeTebda saxalxo diplomatiis gasaZliereblad, saqarTvelos teritoriuli mTlianobis aRsadgenad, radgan verasodes warmoedgina oseTi saqarTvelos gareSe.
– ra datvirTva aqvs samxreT oseTis administracias?
– es aris gansakuTrebuli administraciul-teritoriuli erTeuli saqarTveloSi, romelic 2007 wlis 10 maiss saqarTvelos prezidentis brZanebiT Camoyalibda (e.w. samxreT oseTis administracia). piradad me, aq ministris statusi mqonda devnilebis da konfliqtebis daregulirebis sakiTxebSi. 2008 wlis Semdeg determinizacia moxda, saministroebi daiyo departamentebad da gavxdi devnilTa sakiTxebis departamentis direqtori. amasTan, 2016 wlamde vasrulebdi yvela im arasamTavrobo organizaciis koordinatoris funqcias, visac hqonda Sexeba cxinvalTan, vgulisxmob, qarTul-osuri dialogebis mowyobas.
– Tqven Tavad gaiareT omis yvela safexuri cxinvalSi, iciT, ras niSnavs SeiaraRebuli konfliqti. rogor afasebT ukraina-ruseTis oms?
– omi saSinelebaa, romelic ar unda davuSvaT, magram isev da isev, erTi da igive Secdomebi mogvdis da vebmebiT SeiaraRebul konfliqtebSi. omi aravisTvis SeiZleba iyos misaRebi, yvela aprotestebs, magram faqtia isic, rom yoveldRe vuyurebT saSinel kadrebs, Cven Tvalwin iRupebian qalebi, bavSvebi, axalgazrda, jansaRi adamianebi. rogor SeiZleba es viRacas moswondes? faqtia, rom Zalian bevri aiRo ruseTma Tavis Tavze da patara erebis damonebas mihyo xeli.
– rogor afasebT Tavad ukrainis winaaRmdegobas?
– dideba ukrainas! mivesalmebi aseT Tavganwirvas da Seudrekel brZolas. am xalxma aCvena msoflios, rom rusis jari ar aris daumarcxebeli da rom maszec SesaZlebelia gamarjvebis mopoveba. mivesalmebi ukrainel jariskacebs da moxaliseebs, romlebic ibrZvian sakuTari samSoblos damoukideblobisTvis, ojaxis, Svilebis TavisuflebisTvis da mTeli gonieri kacobriobis RirebulebebisTvis.
– Tqven migaCniaT, rom amdeni xalxis daRupva Rirda natoSi Sesvlis fasad?
– aq cota sxva ramaa, arasodes, aravis moswons omi, magram aq mimdinareobs brZola keTilsa da borots Soris, romelsac imdenad sifrifana zRvari gasdevs, umjobesia, ar gadalaxo. me gamocdili maqvs rusis Ceqma, kargad vici, ras akeTebdnen da axlac akeTeben Cems oseTSi. aravis vusurveb amis Tavidan gadatanas. ruseTis mZlavri propagandistuli manqana axlac gaZlierebulad moqmedebs oseTSi. Sedegad, iqaurebi darwmunebuli arian qarTvelebis kaciWamiobaSi. ver warmoidgenT, rogor wamlaven iqaur axalgazrdebs da ra ganwyobas unergaven yoveldRiurad qarTveli Zmebis mimarT. ukrainelebis omi amiTacaa misasalmebeli, rom isev ar CaviketoT rkinis fardis ukan, ar davkargoT ganviTarebis da progresisken mimavali gza, romelic avirCieT da Rirseulad unda ganvvloT. iseT kadrebs vuyure axlaxan, kidev ver movedi gons. `rusi jadoqrebi jadoqroben ruseTis gamarjvebisTvis~. ruseTi, marTlmadidebluri qveyana rom aseT ritualebs mimarTavs, esec adasturebs, ra Semzarav, Savbnel ZalebTan gvaqvs saqme.
– vfiqrob, rom molaparakebebiTac iyo SesaZlebeli am omis Tavidan acileba.
– es aqedan Cans ase, magram sinamdvileSi, absoluturad sxva ram xdeba. piradad sami omi gaviare, 2008 wels meoTxe Setakeba iyo CemTvis. maSinac saqarTvelom molaparakebebi amowura. isic vici, rom mTavrobam yvela xerxs mimarTa sisxlisRvris asacileblad, magram iseTi kedeli aRmarTa ruseTma, rigiT adamianebsac ekrZalebodaT sakuTari naTesavebis mokiTxvac ki. warmoudgenelia dialogi, rodesac yru kedels awydebi, aravin gpasuxobs, mxolod provokaciebs giwyobs. cxinvali yvelaferia CemTvis, uamravi megobari da naTesavi damrCa, ded-mamis saflavebic iqaa, magram swored ruseTis gamo yvela davkarge. axla kidev ufro TvalnaTliv davinaxe, rom erTmaneTis mowinaaRmdege banakebSi aRmovCndiT. vici, rom rusuli propagandis manqana tvins uwamlavs bevrs. minda gavugo maT, raRacnairad avxsna omis mimarT aseTi damokidebuleba, magram ver vigeb. rogor SeiZleba gaamarTlo agresori, romelic xocavs bavSvebs, qalebs da ar erideba omis konvenciebis darRvevas. Tanac, plakatebiT gamodiode, `mxars vuWer putins~. . . miuRebelia es yvelaferi Cemi azrovnebisTvis.
– ras gvetyviT saxalxo diplomatiaze, rogor muSaobda es sqema da ra miRwevebi gqondaT?
– vkurirebdi saxalxo diplomatiis Sexvedrebs arasamTavrobo doneze. erTmaneTs xvdebodnen eqimebi, pedagogebi, studentebi, anu samoqalaqo sazogadoebis warmomadgenlebi. pirvel dReebSi komunikaciis damyareba gviWirda, magram aRsaniSnavia, rom axalgazrdebi iolad laxavdnen barierebs da saerTo enas poulobdnen. Tumca, rogorc ki Seexeboda Tema saqarTvelos teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgenas, imas, rom iswrafvis evrokavSirisken, demokratiisken, axal faseulobebs eufleba, maSinve iketebodnen sakuTar naWuWSi da aRmarTavdnen im yru kedels, zeviT rom vaxsene. ra gasakviria, rom qarTvelebs ar endobodnen, Cemic esmodaT, imis miuxedavad, rom osi var. mokled, Zalian mtrulad ekidebodnen am mimarTulebiT Tqmul yvela sityvas.
– gamodis, dialogebs Sedegi ar mohqonda?
– asec ar aris. albaT, raRac etapze unda gadavlaxoT es mtrobac da axalgazrdebs ukeT davanaxoT Cveni winaprebis megobroba. aSS-Si viyaviT qarTul-osuri jgufi. saintereso adamianebs, konfliqtologebs SevxvdiT harvardis universitetSi. ori kvira davyaviT iq da radikalurad Seicvala oseTis mxaris warmomadgenelTa xedva. iciT, ra xdeba iq? oseTi Caketil sivrceSia moqceuli, mxolod ruseTisken aqvT gza xsnili, iqidan ki kargad `dauToebuli~ propaganda muSaobs da zemoqmedebs maT fsiqologiasa da mentalobaze. usmenen mxolod ruseTs, evropaSi gasasvlelad moskovSi unda Cavidnen, rac did xarjebTan aris kavSirSi. aqve minda davamato, rom kargad muSaobs saqarTvelos jandacvis saministros ufaso programebi. bevri iTxovs aq samkurnalod Tu saoperaciod wamosvlas, magram zogs uSveben, zogs – ara. ra kriteriumebiT xelmZRvaneloben, ver getyviT.
– Tqven TqviT, rom rusuli propagandis gavleniT, qarTvelebi `kaciWamiebad~ miaCniaT. Tuki asea, ratom endobian Cvens eqimebs?
– albaT, imitom, rom qveSeucnoblad kargad ician, msgavsi araferia, isic ician, rom mxolod saqarTvelo Tu umkurnalebs ufasod. iq Zviri jdeba samedicino servisebi, Tanac ver aris saTanado xarisxis. aqve erTic minda vTqva, CemSi protests iwvevs, rom ufasod mkurnaloben oseTidan wiTeli jvris meSveobiT gadmoyvanil pacientebs, aq darCenil, oseTidan devnilebisTvis ki msgavsi ufaso programa ar moqmedebs, TanadafinansebiT ixdian. es usamarTlobad mimaCnia. sxvaTa Soris, 2017 wels iyo qarTul-osuri dialogis bolo proeqti, Semdeg aq CaerTo afxazebTan saubrebic, kargi Sexvedrebi moewyo msaxiobebTan, sportsmenebTan, xelovanebTan TurqeTSi, baqoSi. saxalxo diplomatiam Zalian gaamarTla. Sedegi miviReT da gvqonda misi gagrZelebis molodini, magr-am ratomRac, qarTulma mxarem aRar isurva gagrZeleba, daibloka. adre meti mondomeba da interesi iyo, axla aRar aris. arada, sanam Cveni Taobaa, romelsac jer kidev gvaqvs urTierToba da kontaqtebi, kargi iqneba, ar dauSvan gaucxoeba. esaa Cveni misia, xidebi unda aRvadginoT da davamsxvrioT kedeli, romelic gviSlis erTmaneTis marTal WrilSi danaxvas. oseTSi, uSiSroeba dasdevs im xalxs, romlebsac saqarTvelosTan kontaqti aqvs. iq bevri Tanamdebobis piri megobari myavs, magram ver bedaven gaxsnilad urTierTobas. sxvaTa Soris, Cvenma arasamTavrobo organizaciam pirvelad aWaraSi ganaxorciela qarTul-osuri Sexvedrebi, qobuleTSi gaxsnes banaki, sadac qarTveli da osi bavSvebi erTad isvenebdnen. mxolod baTumma Segviwyo maSin xeli. oseTidan `cxinvalis saxli~ xelmZRvanelobda am saqmes. sami wlis ganmavlobaSi moqmedebda banakebi, 2000 wlidan, saxelmwifom aiRo Tavisi patronaJis qveS da sxva masStabebze gavediT.
– CvenTan vrceldeba informacia, rom oseTSi gaWirvebaa. . .
– ki, axla – gansakuTrebulad. ara mxolod osebs, Tavad rusebsac gauWirdaT. dasavleTis sanqciebi dRiTi-dRe ZalaSi Sedis. amis miuxedavad, mainc amarTleben putins da mis mxardaWeraze saubroben. simarTle giTxraT, am bolos arc mqonia maTTan Sexmianebis survili, arc is mikiTxavs, am lozungebs ratom aqveyneben, radgan vici, rom pasuxis nacvlad isev im kedels Seveyrebi, aqamde rom ver moixsna. ver aRiqvamen simarTles, maTTvis mxolod erTi mxare arsebobs da samwuxarod, es mxare diqtatura da agresiaa. ukraina sakuTari qveynis damoukideblobisTvis ibrZvis, is xom ar daesxa ruseTs Tavs, mas daesxnen, waarTves luganski, donecki da yirimi. ras emarTlebian, ra undaT, ratom ar wyveten brZolebs da xocaven xalxs, aqamde gaugebaria CemTvis. mtkiva, rom am xalxma vera da ver iswavla Sav-TeTris garCeva.
– ukraina isev uwevs winaaRmdegobas. ra aZlevs Zalas, simarTlisTvis brZola?
– ki, es erT-erTi gadamwyvetia, magram aris meore sakiTxic, ukrainelebi da rusebi erTni arian, cal-calke eria, ra Tqma unda, magram warmoSoba aqvT erTi – slavebi arian, saerTo mentaloba aqvT da Zalian kargad icnoben erTmaneTs. iciT, ra mgonia? mxolod ukrainelebs ZaluZT rusebis damarcxeba, radgan Zirfesvianad icnoben erT dros Zmad Seracxul mters. rusebs aqvT kargi gamoTqma: `sols soliT amoaZrob~, anu rusebs isev ukrainelebi Tu moerevian, radgan igive brZolis unari, SemarTeba da simamace gaaCniaT, ramac adreul omebSi Tavad ruseTsac araerTxel gaamarjvebina… Tumca is gamarjvebebi iyo maSin, rodesac marTali saqmisTvis ibrZoda, axla ki ukrainelebi ibrZvian samSoblosTvis, TavisuflebisTvis da darwmunebuli var, gaimarjveben.
– belarusebic xom slavebi arian, Tumca putins ver gauqandnen.
– amaSia saqme, kievis ruseTi iyo da ara belarusis. ukraineli dedebi isev medgar adamianebs uzrdian qveyanas, ar daClungebiaT brZolaSi gamowrTobili maxvili. marTlac warmoudgeneli, saocari brZolebis da Serkinebis mowme gaxda msoflio, kidev erTxel darwmundnen, rom mxolod slavi dasZlevs slavs, romelic emuqreba mis Tavisuflebas. ukraina ibrZvis ara mxolod sakuTari qveynisTvis, aramed mTeli kacobriobis mowinave, gonieri mosaxleobisTvis. vgulSematkivrob ukrainas, minda, yvela qveyana iyos Tavisufali da damoukidebeli.
– rogor SeafasebT saqarTvelos mTavrobis pozicias?
– ukraina idga Cven gverdiT 2008 wels da saqarTvelomac Tavisi sityva unda Tqvas. ukrainis mxardamWerma mitingebma saerTaSoriso sarbielze imijis Selaxvas gadagvarCina.
– Cven isev vrCebiT ruseTis dartymis safrTxis qveS da, aqedan gamomdinare, mTavrobis frTxil pozicias bevri iwonebs.
– marTali xarT, magram arc is unda dagvaviwydes, rom mTeli msoflio wuxs, 2008 wels rom ar gaakeTa is, rasac axla akeTebs. sanqciebs da ruseTis mkacr CarCoebSi Casmas vgulisxmob, iaraRiT da moxaliseebiT daxmarebas. garwmunebT, aucileblad gaimarjvebs sikeTe da sinaTle. ukraina axla civilizebuli samyaros winamZRvaria da Cvenc mis gverdiT unda vidgeT.
