,,ვერავინ მოუწოდებს საქართველოს, საკუთარ ტერიტორიაზე გაუხსნას რუსეთს მეორე ფრონტი”
èïîòïè õòàïîòøâòäò 27 48 93 –
ukraina-ruseTis molaparakebebze, mTavrobis mier gadadgmul pozitiur nabijebze, amnistiasa da baTumis sakrebulos Sualedur arCevnebze saubrobs am interviuSi aWaris umaRlesi sabWos Tavmjdomaris moadgile tite aroSiZe
– batono tite, Tqveni azriT, Tu arsebobs Sansi, ukraina-ruseTis molaparakebebi dasruldes ise, rogorc mTel civilizebul samyaros miaCnia samarTlianad?
– ruseT-ukrainis omis dasrulebisken nabijebi gadadgmulia. rogorc iciT, kidev erTi molaparakeba Sedga, sadac aSkara gaxda, rom mxareebi Tanxmdebian rig sakiTxebze. ukrainac midis kompromisze, imis miuxedavad, rom araferi dasaTmobi ar aqvs, radgan sakuTari miwa-wylis dasacavad ibrZvis. darwmunebuli var, omi dasruldeba im SedegiT, rogoric awyobs samyaros. droze unda mogvardes yvela aucilebeli sakiTxi, raTa ar gagrZeldes sisxlisRvra da mTeli es konfrontacia ar iqces msoflios udides krizisad, romlis gamosworeba Zalian rTuli, TiTqmis SeuZlebeli iqneba. mjera, goniereba gaimarjvebs da male vixilavT damSvidebul ukrainas da evropas birTvuli omis safrTxis gareSe.
– ramdenad mosalodnelia, ukrainaSi marcxis Semdeg, ruseTis saqarTveloSi Semosvla?
– Cven ruseTisgan ramdenjerme viwvnieT msgavsi SeiaraRebuli konfliqti. aranakleb davzaralebulvarT. qveynis teritoriis 20% okupirebulia, didi msxverpli gaviReT, dagveRupa rogorc jariskacebi, ise mSvidobiani mosaxleoba. yovelive amas Tu gaviTvaliswinebT, arafris garantia ar gvaqvs, ar viciT, SemdgomSi ras moimoqmedebs ruseTi militaristuli TvalsazrisiT. aqve aRvniSnav, Cveni mizanmimarTuli politika imeds gvaZlevs, rom mSvidobianad Caivlis yvelaferi. cxadia, aucilebelia, mosalodnel SeiaraRebul konfliqtebs Tavi maqsimalurad avaridoT. samwuxarod, ar varT is qveyana, romelsac SeuZlia Setevis mogerieba da TavdacviTi sistemis resursebis mobilizeba, rogorc israels. amitom, safrTxe arsebobs. xelisufleba yvelafers akeTebs, qveyana rom omSi ar aRmoCndes CaTreuli. amisTvis lavirebs diplomatebis meSveobiT, raTa arc ukrainas daaklos saTanado yuradReba da arc saqarTvelo Seatovos ganrisxebul ruseTs pirispir.
– opozicia prorusulobis braldebas giyenebT. . .
– ukve gasagebia, vin da ratom ambobs amas. ukrainis mxardaWera CvenTvis calsaxad prioritetulia. Cven vdgavarT ukrainis gverdiT da bolomde ase iqneba. am mimarTulebiT vaqveynebT rezoluciebs, vafiqsirebT pozicias, evrokavSiris mier miRebul yvela dokuments veTanxmebiT da viziarebT rogorc sakanonmdeblo, ise aRmasrulebeli xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebi.
– humanitaruli tvirTis garda, ra daxmarebas sTavazobs xelisufleba ukrainas?
– daviwyoT Tundac humanitaruli tvirTiT, romelic sakmaod xSirad, lamis erTmaneTis miyolebiT igzavneba. viTvaliswinebT urTules, sabrZolo mdgomareobaSi myofi xalxis gaWirvebas, pirvelad moTxovnilebebs da imis mixedviT vagzavniT yvelafers. garda amisa, viRebT ukrainel ltolvilebs, uzrunvelvyofT droebiTi sacxovrebeli farTiT, kvebiT, pirveladi moxmarebis nivTebiT. amaSi CarTulia turizmis seqtori da sxva saTanado organoebi. es meqanizmebi amoqmedebulia da saxelmwifo zrunavs ukrainelebze, romlebic gamoeqcnen oms, an aq CarCnen omis gamo.
– ukrainelebis garda, baTumsa da TbilisSi rusebic mravlad Camovidnen da iciT, ra ukmayofilebac mohyva maT aq gamoCenas. . .
– statistikaze dayrdnobiT yvela davrwmundiT, rom amJamad Camosuli rusi moqalaqeebis raodenoba SarSan da SarSanwindels ar aRemateba. aqedan gamomdinare vTvliT, rom sagangaSo araferia. Tanac, saqarTvelos Zalian bevr moqalaqes aqvs ormagi moqalaqeoba da CamosulTa Soris, qarTvelebic arian, romlebmac Tavi aarides omSi myof qveyanas da samSobloSi dabrundnen. cxadia, am procesma ar unda gamoiwvios panika. Tu daakvirdiT, asecaa, arsad arcerTi incidenti ar dafiqsirebula. Tavidan iyo raRac gamosvlebi, rasac ukve SeveCvieT Cvenc da mosaxleobac. xalxi kargad xvdeba, ra aris misTvis safrTxe da ra – ara. es rusi moqalaqeebi Tavad gamoeqcnen putinis reJims da ar isaxaven miznad Cveni saxelmwifosTvis zianis miyenebas. Tu moskovs surs saqarTveloSi Semosvla, amisTvis ar saWiroebs agentebis gadmogzavnas, radgan ager dgas, misi jari, 40 kilometrSi.
– es gasagebia, magram ratom airCies maincdamainc saqarTvelo?
– ras ambobT, rusebi Sedian sxva qveynebSic, kerZod, poloneTSi, TurqeTSi. am orma qveyanam es faqti gaaJRera, igive iqneba sxvaganac, ubralod, ar acxadeben procesis mimdinareobas. ruseTis moqalaqeTa umetesobisTvis miuRebelia omic da is sanqciebic, rac dauwesa ruseTs koleqtiurma dasavleTma. aqedan gamomdinare, ruseTidan gasvliT cdilobs SeinarCunos biznesi sxva qveynebSi mainc. igive TurqeTs uari ar uTqvams rusi biznesmenebis Casvlaze, radgan Zalian kargad icis, rom iq Sesuli fuli isev da isev, mis qveyanas da xalxs waadgeba. turistebad Camosuli rusebis miReba ar niSnavs putinis agresiis mxardaWeras.
– maSin ras niSnavs?
– es niSnavs, rom Ria da megobruli varT yvela im xalxis mimarT, vinc pativs scems saqarTvelos saxelmwifos, aRiarebs mis suverenitets, anu visac SeuZlia azrovneba da Tvlis am oms putinis TavaSvebul agresiad.
– amis miuxedavad, ukrainis prezidentma saqarTvelodan da marokodan elCebi gaiwvia. zelenskim aRniSna, rom `sxva samsaxuri unda moZebnon im qveynebSi myofma misma elCebma `erTi mxriv, ukrainas rom exmarebian, meore mxriv ki ruseTs sanqciebs ar akisreben~.
– Cveni politika ukrainasTan dakavSirebiT cnobilia – yvela platformaze vexmarebiT da gverdSi vudgavarT. yvelafris miuxedavad, gavagrZelebT ukraineli xalxis mxardaWeras SesaZleblobis farglebSi. aqve getyviT dasavleTis eqspertebis, saerTaSoriso Tanamegobrobis, evropis pozicias, romlebic Riad da calsaxad aRiareben, rom saqarTvelo uryevad mihyveba evropis kurss, Sesabamisad, is nabijebi, romelic am saSineli omis dros ukrainis mxardasaWerad gadadga saqarTvelom misi SesaZleblobidan gamomdinare, maqsimaluria. radikaluri opoziciis warmomadgenlebs xelze aqvT daxveuli, TiTqos Cven Riad ar vafiqsirebT ruseTis sawinaaRmdego gancxadebebs. aba ra ewodeba am rezoluciaze xelmoweras? axla mgoni gons moegen da aRar aprotesteben, rom ar vagzavniT ukrainaSi moxaliseebs da iaraRs. araTu saqarTvelo, didi Svideulis evropuli qveynebic ki eridebian msgavsi nabijebis oficialurad gadadgmas, uars acxadeben iaraRis miwodebaze, radgan es iqneba militarizaciaSi CarTva da meore frontis gaxsna. arcerTi WkuaTmyofeli ar moawers amaze xels, radgan planeta dadgeba birTvuli omis safrTxis winaSe, romelsac veRaraferi SeaCerebs. am fonze, omSi CaTreuli qveynis garda, veravin mouwodebs saqarTvelos, sakuTar teritoriaze gauxsnas ruseTs meore fronti.
– ras ityviT `amnistiis Sesaxeb~ kanonproeqtze, romelic parlamentma axlaxan miiRo. SesaZlebelia amnistia aslan abaSiZesac Seexos?
– aq azri iyofa, yvela Tavisas amtkicebs. abaSiZis mmarTvelobis periodSi, mis opoziciaSi viyavi, misi reJimis mowinaaRmdege organizaciac ki gvqonda Camoyalibebuli axalgazrdebs. amis miuxedavad, piradad vTvli, rom sakmaod didi droa gasuli da aRar unda davuSaloT aslan abaSiZes samSobloSi dabruneba. aqve imasac vityvi, rom xSirad, danaSaulis gamo, 80-100 wlis adamianebsac ki usjian sasjels. magaliTad, faSisturi germaniis mxardaWeraSi mxilebulT, anu arsebul kanons gverds ver avuvliT. asea aqac, Tuki kanoni iZleva aslan abaSiZis amnistirebis saSualebas, eqspertebi daadgenen da daskvnas dadeben. piradad Cemi mosazrebaa, 2004 wels qveynidan gasuli kaci unda dabrundes, Tuki kanoni darTavs nebas.
– mTavrobis damxobis Sesaxeb saakaSvilis mowodebaze ras ityviT?
– es ukve sasacilo ufroa, vidre seriozul aspeqtSi gansaxilveli. darwmunebuli var, misive mxardamWerebic xumrobad aRiqvamen aseT mowodebebs. saakaSvils fsiqikuri aSlilobis niSnebi aqvs, rasac daadastureben specialistebi, dauniSnaven mkurnalobas da miuCenen adgils. isic faqtia, rom mixeil saakaSvils adekvaturi azrovnebis araferi etyoba. vfiqrob, saakaSvilis cxovrebis pirveli etapi iqneba sasjelaRsrulebis dawesebulebaSi yofna, Semdegi – fsiqiatriuli saavadmyofo. bolos, albaT, ivlis Tbilisis quCebSi da analogiur mowodebebs gaakeTebs.
– dRes Sualeduri arCevnebia, ra Sansebi aqvs `qarTuli ocnebis~ kandidats?
– Zalian didi Sansebi aqvs da amas adasturebs Sexvedrebi mosaxleobasTan. ramaz jinWaraZes yvela icnobs, dadebiTad axasiaTeben da yvela udasturebs, rom aucileblad miscems mas xmas. Tu daakvirdiT, opoziciam ramazis winaaRmdeg verc erTi braldeba ver amoagdo da aRar ician, rogor moaxdinon Cveni diskreditacia.
– rogor ara. `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ acxadebs, rom `qarTuli ocnebis~ xelSewyobiT, gonio-kvariaTis maJoritarul saarCevno olqSi 1053 adamiani Caewera, adre sxva municipalitetebSi rom cxovrobda da Tqvens mxardamWerad moiazreba.
– rogorc ki axlovdeba arCevnebi, opoziciis mxridan iwyeba usafuZvlo braldebebis korianteli. amas ise SeveCvieT, rom araferi eTqvaT, gagvikvirdeboda. amasTan dakavSirebiT, `qarTuli ocnebis~ baTumis saarCevno Stabis xelmZRvanelma irakli WeiSvilma gaakeTa gancxadeba. mec Cemsas getyviT, Tu ratom gaizarda am periodSi Cawerili xalxis raodenoba. erT-erTi mizezia vadagasuli piradobis baraTebis aRdgena. aseTi pirebi bazaSi fiqsirdebian, rogorc axali amomrCevlebi. visac 18 weli Seusrulda, isic Sevida bazaSi da mesame gaxlavT – faqtiur misamarTze dafiqsirebuli moqalaqeebi. es procesebi araTu yovelwliurad, yoveldRiurad mimdinareobs, radgan Tu adamiani yidis binas, bankidan iRebs sesxs an reestris sxva servisze surs miuwvdebodes xeli, faqtiur misamarTze registrirdeba. sxva ubnebSic asea, aqedan gamomdinare, `erTianma nacionalurma moZraobam~ umjobesia sxva bazebic gadaamowmos da Semdeg gaJReros braldeba. Tanac, ratom arian darwmunebuli, rom es xalxi maincdamainc `qarTul ocnebas~ dauWers mxars, iqneb maTi amomrCevelia? saidan ician, vin ras fiqrobs da romel partias aniWebs upiratesobas? Cvengan ar yofila msgavsi braldebebi, arada Tavisuflad SegveZlo gveTqva, gazrdilia siebi, `nacionalebis~ mier gatarebuli qmedebebis gamoo.
– anu, ar apirebT arafris garkvevas?
– ra azri aqvs? amas ara, sxva rames dagvabralebdnen. CvenTvis standartuli situaciaa, rodesac amomrCevelTa siebi avtomaturad izrdeba zemoT CamoTvlili mizezebis gamo. `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ aseTi aRelveba ki mxolod da mxolod erTs amtkicebs – kargad ician, am olqis mosaxleoba Cven gviWers mxars da maT ar gaaCniaT gamarjvebis Sansi.
– saqarTvelo didi ekonomikuri krizisis winaSe dgas, eqspertebi varaudoben, rom sasursaTo deficitis pirobebSi aRmovCndebiT..
– faqtia, araordinalur viTarebaSi varT. krizisi iqneba, Tumca misi daregulirebis berketebi Cvens saxelmwifos gaaCnia, igive alternatiuli bazrebis moZiebis saSualebiT. mogexsenebaT, saqarTveloSi iqmneba ara ramdenime dRis, ramdenime Tvis maragebi, rac saSualebas gvaZlevs, deficitis warmoqnis gareSe vipovoT sasursaTo maragis sxva wyaro. gvaqvs urTierToba evrokavSirTan. mis qveynebTan SeRavaTiani savaWro reJimi moqmedebs, rac krizisis neitralizaciis da dabalansebis imeds iZleva. mxolod samSeneblo bazris gveeWveba, romlis ZiriTadi momwodebeli ukraina da ruseTi gaxldaT. iqidan Camogvqonda rkina, sxva samSeneblo masalebi da teqnologiebi. Tumca, aqac veZebT alternatiuli produqciis mopovebis bazrebs. Cveni mTavroba maqsimalurad cdilobs daabalansos arsebuli ekonomikuri viTareba. marTalia, garkveul produqciaze fasebis matebaa, magram rogorc importiori qveyana, ver movaxdenT zegavlenas, radgan veyrdnobiT msoflio bazars.
