ორი საუკუნის პანორამად
ოთარ ცინარიძე 599 85 21 14
Cveni stumaria cnobili mwerali da kritikosi, wlevandeli saerTaSoriso literaturuli festivalis `ze-karTan~ monawile, parlamentari rostom CxeiZe
– batono rostom, gamomcemloba `artanujma~ Tqveni avtorobiT gamosca 1000-gverdiani, didi formatis wigni `kalami golgoTaze~. Tqvens SemoqmedebaSi dokumentur romans sapatio adgili uWiravs. mokled gvesaubreT am da sxva romanebze . . .
– dokumenturi prozis es nairsaxeoba – biografiuli romani – CemTvis, rogorc mkiTxvelisaTvis, usayvarlesi Janria bavSvobidanve, im droidan, rodesac fizikosoba mqonda ganzraxuli da ocnebiTac arasodes miocnebia am Janris romanis Seqmna. Semdeg lingvistikas da leqsikografobas unda gavetace – es ukve studentobisas – da meoTxe kursidan eseistikisa da Targmanisaken rom unda gadaxriliyo Cemi interesi, amasobaSi samecniero Ziebebs folkloristikisa da bibliologiis sferoSi unda Semomateboda saliteraturo kritikac, TandaTanobiT pavle ingoroyvaze rom unda damgroveboda narkvevebisa da statiebis mTeli cikli . . . mama mirCevda, iqneb gagemTlianebina es seria, Segevso, Sinagani xazi gageZlierebina da monografiad geqciao!.. da es rCeva gamomadgeboda erTgvar biZgad, raTa Cemi fiqri biografiuli romanisaken gadarTuliyo. im cikls sulac gverdiT gadavdebdi da . . . ase Seiqmneboda `bedi pavle ingoroyvasi~, romelic STamagonebda, rom Sevyolodi XIX da XX saukuneebs da calkeul pirovnebaTa cxovreba da Rvawli swored am mxatvrul formaSi momeqcia. pavle ingoroyvas cxovrebis qronikas ramdenime weliwadSi unda mohyoloda aleqsandre orbelianze romani, mere kvlav ramdenime weliwadSi – aleqsandre yazbegis cxovrebis qronikac . . . amis Semdeg aebmeboda da . . . erT welSi ori romanic damiweria. ase moiyrida Tavs 30 biografiuli romani, rac kvlavac unda Seivsos da es ori saukune unapralod da uxarvezod warmodges erTian panoramad. mixeil javaxiSvilze mamas surda biografiuli romanis dawera, vasil barnovsa da lord baironze ukve Seeqmna am Janris nimuSebi, magram yvelafers veRar gawvdeboda da misi 24-tomiani cikli `matiane qarTlisai~ mixeil javaxiSvilis saxebis gareSe darCeboda, Tumc iseT eseis Seqmnida `jayos xiznebze~, gzamkvlevad gamomadgeboda da idumal warmmarTvelad, `kalami golgoTaze~ mec ocnebad rom ar damrCenoda, sxvaTa Soris: mixeil javaxiSvils ganzraxuli hqonda romanis Seqmna qaquca ColoyaSvilze, saxelwodebiT `Savi Coxa~, am saTaursac da am swrafvasac me rom gaviziarebdi, qaquca ColoyaSvilis biografiuli qronikis werisas Zalian wamadgeboda Cemi usayvarlesi mwerlis es Tundac aRusrulebeli Canafiqri, iseve rogorc romanSi `arsena marabdeli~ mTavari gmiris portretsa da Tavgadasavals idumalad Cawnula qaquca ColoyaSvilis saxeba.
– es wigni mamaTqvens, oTar CxeiZes miuZRveniT. kargi Svili Rirseul mamas yovelTvis pativs miagebs. is, rac mamis Sesaxeb dRemde ar giTqvamT . . .
– mamaCemis eseic da misi zepiri naambobebic mixeil javaxiSvilze rom SemaZlebinebda am veeba romanis Seqmnas, mxolod amitom ar eZRvneba `kalami golgoTaze~ oTar CxeiZes. ufro imitom, rom: igi gaxldaT mixeil javaxiSvilis sulieri memkvidre, misi gzis uSualo gamgrZelebeli biografiuladac da satirikosobiTac, masaviT TavzexelaRebuli rom Seexleboda komunistur ideologiasa da reJims da arc represiebi moakldeboda. TqmiT ki . . . mamaze arsebiTad yvelaferi maqvs naTqvami – araerTxel gamixsenebia mxatvrul-dokumenturi yaidis TxzulebebSic, eseebSic da sxva misi Tanamokalmeebisadmi miZRvnil biografiul romanebSic – pavle ingoroyva iqneboda, konstantine gamsaxurdia, galaktion tabiZe, giorgi SatberaSvili, vaxtang WeliZe, zviad gamsaxurdia . . .Sio aragvispirelze biografiuli romanis Seqmnisasac Zalian unda wamdgomoda oTar CxeiZis eseic am mweralze da misi sxva narkvevebic qarTul novelaze . . . da piradadac unda mimeZRvna misTvis biografiuli romani `agvistos Svilebi~.
– 30 biografiuli romanidan romels gamoarCevdiT?
– mwerlebi TavianT wignebs Svilebs adareben xolme: rogorc imaTi gamorCeva ar SeiZleba, ise amaTio. am mxriv, arc me viqnebi originaluri. Tumc uiliam folkneri am TvalsazrisiT gamoarCevda Tavisi romanebidan `xmaursa da mZvinvarebas~: dedas rogorc uyvars gamorCeulad avadmyofi Svili, yvelaze metad romelsac uwvalebiao. da am kuTxiT Tu gadavavleb Tvals Cemi biografiuli romanebis serias, TavisTavad amotivtivdeba vaJa-fSavelas cxovrebis qronika: `devebis stumari~ – ise rom gamtanjavda, TiTqos devebis qorwilSi mec movxvedriliyavi da mTeli is sazarloba da koSmarebi Cems Tavze gadametana.
– raa mTavari, iyo kargi mwerali, Tu – opozicioneri politikosi?
– opozicioneri politikosoba Zaldautanebeli gagrZelebaa Cemi literaturuli saqmianobisa, mwerali xom isedac opozicioneria – es aris misi uSualo movaleoba, da mec am movaleobisagan arc arasodes gadamixvevia. ase rom, aq mTavarsa da aramTavarze ar unda iyos laparaki. orive aucilebelia, miT umetes, iseT mwvave, gausaZlis realobaSi, rogorSic vimyofebiT da misgan TavdaRwevis gzebs veZiebT rogorc mxatvruli, ise publicisturi sityviT.
– bolo dros SemoqmedebiT moRvaweobas uTmobT met dros Tu politikur sarbielze yofnas?
– gasagebia – Cems parlamentarobas gulisxmobT. vcdilob, erTmaneTs Sevuxamo es orive sarbieli, arc erTs movaklo raime da arc meores, bolos da bolos xalxSi siaruli da misi Wir-varamis uSualo mosmena soflad Tu qalaqad, mTasa Tu barSi, mweralsac iseve evaleba, rogorc politikoss. publicisturi statiebi yovelTvis damiweria, eg aris, axla axali nakadi unda SemoWriliyo Cems SemoqmedebiT biografiaSi: saparlamento gamosvlebi, romelsac Tavisi aRnagobiT elguja TavberiZe sulac siaxled miiCnevda qarTuli parlamentarizmis istoriaSi.
– Tqveni dabadebidan 60 wlis iubile – sxvebis msgavsad – pompezurad ratom ar aRniSneT?
– araTu pompezur aRniSvnas gaveridebodi, mkrTalad, gakvriTac arsad gaxmiandeboda da es gaxldaT Cemi mtkice moTxovna. vaJa-fSavela jer kidev rodis wuxda da mkacradac gansjida: iubilei gaxSirda, rogorc maisSi rwyilebio! . . . da araviTari survili arca maqvs da arc meqneba, rwyilTa kakafonias Sevemato. iubilis aRniSvna gansakuTrebuli movlena unda iyos eris cxovrebaSi da ara ama Tu im – Tund damsaxurebuli – pirovnebisa, metad iSviaTad unda xdebodes da mTeli qveyana monawileobdes suliTa da guliT: rafiel erisTavis iubile rogorc aRiniSneboda, rogorc aRiniSneboda akaki wereTlis iubile. saamisod Tavi ar meRirseba, da CemisTanebma unda ikmaron iseT didebul zeimSi monawileoba – Rirseuli adgilis miCena marTlac rCeul kacTaTvis.
– CxeiZeebis adgilis deda guriaa. Tqveni samkvidro ki gori da qarTlia. saidan sad?
– guria ratom – afxazeTi da samegrelo, Cxetia Cveni ganayari gvaria, CxeiZeebi ki ufro imereTSi saxloben, aq moikidebdnen yvelaze metad fexs – aba raWis erisTavobidan ori Taobis mere tragikulad unda gamoveZevebineT . . . devna-devnaSi qarTlSi unda gadmosuliyo erTi Sto Cemi gvarisa da itriaSi damkvidrebuliyo – meTauri CxeiZeTa qarTlis saxlisa is beJania, romelic gaxldaT giorgi saakaZis SviliSvili da vaJi im gorgasalisa, romelic Svilis magivrad gawiravda Tavs – beJans gamoaSvebinebda alepos jurRmulebidan da ocdameaTe kacad TviTon mieTvleboda sikvdiliT dasasjelad gayvanil did mouravsa da mis razmelebs. amis Taobaze mTeli wigni maqvs dawerili: `Cemi sagvareulo Sto~ – romelic umTavresad daeyrdnoboda Tamaz lacabiZis mecnierul Ziebebsa da monapovars, da cxadia, sxva araerT dokumentur wyarosac Tu sagvareulo gamocemasac.
– dRemde ra urTierTobebi gakavSirebdaT aWaris mTianeTTan?
– erTaderTxel var am mxareSi namyofi da gamudmebiT mqonda survili, kidev vwveodi aqaurobas. ase rom, amjerad cota suli moviTqvi, Torem mTiani aWaris dalaSqvra, me rogorc mCvevia, jerac win maqvs.
– rogor Semovida TqvenTan urTierTobaSi saerTaSoriso literaturuli festivali `ze-karTan~?
– `ze karTan~ marTlac didebuli saqmea, jer misi wamowyeba da mere SenarCuneba da gaRrmaveba-gamravalferovneba, Torem gvaxsovs sxva Cinebuli wamowyebanic, maleve rom Caferflilan. amjerad iseTi kaci unda Cadgomoda saTaveSi, vaxtang beriZe, romelic energiasa da mondomebas ar daiSurebda da Tavsac gadadebda am festivalis SesanarCunebladac da sulac saerTaSorisod gadaqcevisaTvisac. imTaviTve momiwvevda am festivalSi monawileobis misaRebad, magram xan ra mabrkolebda da xanac ra, da aqamde ver momixerxdeboda masSi CarTva. bolos da bolos, yvela saqmes gadavdebdi, raTa mec Sevmatebodi am namdvil literaturul dResaswauls da mTian aWaraSic piradad Sevxvedrodi WeSmarit mkiTxvelebs. iq gvanca jobava SesZenda kidev erT nakads am festivals – poeti, mTargmneli da organizatori: yvela sarbielze erTnairad warmatebuli. iq Tamaz maxaraZe – WeSmariti qarTveli kacis gansaxiereba – amoudgeboda gverdiT, misi sastumro `Cao~ literaturul keradac rom gadaiqceoda da guliTa da suliT CaerToboda am mravalmxriv mniSvnelovan sazogadoebriv-kulturul procesSi, wignebic TviTonve rom miakiTxavdnen mkiTxvelebs.
– asakobrivi zRvari, politikuri sarbieli, SemoqmedebiTi saqmianoba, Tanamedrove gamowvevebTan Widili erTi gqondaT Tqven da tariel futkaraZes. amjerad mis mSobliur kuTxeSi xarT. ras ityviT mis saqmianobaze?
– dasanania, Zalian dasanani aseTi kolorituli da Rirseuli kacis dakargva, tariel futkaraZe rom gaxldaT, umniSvnelovanes samecniero da sazogadoebriv saqmeTa aRmsrulebeli, da aramarto saqarTvelos masStabiT, Cvens TvistomT yvelgan rom daeZebda, gansakuTrebiT mainc – TurqeTsa da iranSi, aramcTu Zafebs abamda maTTan, sulac xidebs. da saerTod, sanimuSo iyo misi moRvaweoba rogorc mkvlevaris, leqtorisa Tu samecniero xelmZRvanelis, am mxrivac gansakuTrebul gulisyurs rom iCenda axalgazrda mecnierTa aRsazrdelad, da amitomac hyavda amdeni mowafec da mere ukve umcrosi kolegac. da rom ara pandemia, kidev raoden sasikeTo saqmes aRasrulebda . . . Tumc rac dagvitova mecnierul da literaturul memkvidreobad, Zalze Zvirfasia, da misi wamowyebuli saqmeebic saimedo xelTaa gasagrZeleblad.
– sxalTaSi, xulos, Suaxevis, qedis centrebSi wamomarTuli taZrebi raze miganiSnebT?
– yvela es taZari TvalsaCinoebaa am mxaris sulierebis uwyvetobisa, qristianuli samyaros gulisgulSi yofnisa, am rwmenis gadarCenis simbolo da xelSesaxebi dasturi. amasTan Cveni xuroTmoZRvruli xelovnebis ukeTesi nimuSebi, romelTa monaxulebac arasodes mogwyindeba.
– mamaTqvenisa da fridon xalvaSis urTierTobebidan ra gaxsendebaT?
– fridon xalvaSi Tavisi adamianuri RirsebebiT, yvelasaTvis sayvareli pirovneba gaxldaT da Tbilisel mwerlebsac Tu mouxarodaT baTumisaken, imitomac, iq batoni fridonic rom egulebodaT, CvenTvis – Zia fridoni, romelic Tavis mxriv xSirad swvevia oTar CxeiZes TbilisSic, gorSic, yelqceulSic, bavSvebTanac rom uxaroda yofna da natosac da mec gviyvarda misi mosmena. mamebis megobroba Svilebzec gadmovidoda da zaza xalvaSi da me SevinarCunebdiT am tradicias, rac kvlavac unda gagrZeldes da Cvenma Svilebmac Sinaurulad unda igrZnon Tavi erTmaneTTan. sxvaTa Soris: baTumSi fridon xalvaSis xsovnis saRamo, umTavresad agebuli mis avtobiografiul romansa da sxvadasxva drois Canawerebze, Cemi TaosnobiT gaimarTeboda, elguja TavberiZec rom amomidgeboda gverdiT. samwuxarod, zazac ukve xsovnaSia gadasuli da piradadac makisria movaleoba, Rirseulad yofiliyos dafasebuli misi kinematografiuli da mwerluri Rvawli, radganac is ori wigni – `scenarebi~ da `muWSi damaluli kenWebi~ – `inteleqti~ rom gamoscemda, Cveni literaturuli mdinarebis srulfasovani nawilia.
– `me, mwerali, dRes sasaflaoze vcxovrob~ aTqmevineT mixeil javaxiSvils. rogor cxovrobs Tanamedrove qarTveli mwerali?
– es fraza TviTon mixeil javaxiSvilisaa, da cxadia, Cems biografiul romanSic unda gadmosuliyo ara marto sityvebad, aramed TvalnaTliv warmosaxuliyo is mtanjveli garemo, sadac uxdeboda moRvaweoba mwerals da es mware frazac dascdeboda. Tanamedrove qarTveli mwerlis ganwyobac swored imgvaria, rogoric am Cveni didebuli winamorbedisa, radganac qveyana ar miemarTeba bunebrivi gziT da saxelmwifo pirobiTad ufro gvqvia, vidre realurad.
– Zalian kargi gadacema migyavdaT televiziiT. ratom gaqra is ekranidan?
– 90-ian wlebSi pirveli arxis `alionis~ programiT erTaderTi vuZRvebodi literaturul mimoxilvas oTx welze meti xnis ganmavlobaSi. mogvianebiT sapatriarqos arxis dilis gadacemaSi TiTqmis aT weliwads vagrZelebdi imave saqmes. amasobaSi aRdgeboda telekompania `iberia~ da aq ukve literaturuli gadacemis garda, sazogadoebriv-politikur gadacemasac `de-faqto~ vuZRvebodi, am telekompaniis daxurva orive gadacemas rom Sewyvetda. amasobaSi es mxare Cemi saqmianobisa ukve amovwure da axla axalgazrdebma unda mixedon da kargadac uZRvebian literaturul gadacemebsa da mimoxilvebs sxvadasxva arxze.
– rogor reagirebT sasaubro, Tundac saliteraturo enaSi ucxouri sityvebis damkvidrebaze?
– mesmis, rom es ritorikuli SekiTxvaa, magram mainc gindaT sajarod maTqmevinoT Cemi uaryofiTi damokidebuleba am movlenisadmi, marTlac ugvanobisadmi, radgan barbarizmebic Zalian anagvianebs enas, amWlevebs da aufasurebs. es movlena ar unda agverios saerTaSoriso sityvebisa Tu samecniero-literaturuli terminebis gamoyenebaSi, rac aucilebelia da enis gamdidrebas uwyobs xels. Tumc zomierebis dacva aqac mogveTxoveba da zedmetad ar unda gadaitvirTos Cveni zepirmetyveleba Tu naweri saerTaSoriso sityvebiTa Tu terminebiT. am mxriv, iseTive Seurigebeli var, rogorc: ilia WavWavaZe, daviT kldiaSvili, mixeil javaxiSvili, oTar CxeiZe… qarTul enas yvela mwerali Tavgadakluli icavda, magram eseni yovel wuTas enis gadarCenis aucileblobas imeorebdnen, SeiZleba iTqvas – sizmarSic amas dudunebdnen.
– qveynis Wir-varamze mzrunveli da modarde gvaris Rirseul STamomavals saqarTvelos momavali rogor gesaxebaT?
– me im gvarisa var, romelic Tavisi sisxliTa da ofliT dahkiravda saqarTvelos saxelmwifoebriobas yovel droSi da ver warmoedgina msoflio saqarTvelos gareSe. Cveni qveynis momavals vxedav ase da mxolod ase: Zlieri kavkasiis SuagulSi moqceul Zlier saqarTvelod! . . . Zlieri kavkasiis gareSe saqarTvelo verasodes iqneba Zalmosili saxelmwifo, iseve rogorc kavkasia verasodes miaRwevs Zlierebas Zalmosili saqarTvelos gareSe.
– ramdenad samarTliania qveynis axlandeli xelisuflebis pozicia ruseT-ukrainis omTan mimarTebaSi?
– es pozicia zustad iseTia, rogoric farisevlis, kolaboracionistis, siraqlemas pozicia SeiZleba iyos. sityviT – dasavleTs gaiZaxian, saqmiT – ruseTumeebad warmogvidgebian. barem ar endomebodaT am omSi ukrainis gamarjveba, magram realoba maTi molodinis sapirispiro aRmoCnda da ukve aRar ician, ras miawydnen. am omis warmatebiT dasruleba, anu rusuli imperializmisa da Sovinizmis gardauvali marcxi sxvagvarad daalagebs msoflio wesrigs da saqarTveloSic Sesaferisi politikuri cvlileba mohyveba – uTuod sasikeTo cvlileba, Cvens saxelmwifoebriobas rogorc SeSvenis da ekadreba! . .
