” არაფრად ღირს ადამიანის საქმიანობა, თუ ახალგაზრდებს გზამკლევად ვერ გამოადგები”
ოთარ ცინარიძე 599 85 21 14 –
baTumis SoTa rusTavelis saxelmwifo universitetis niko berZeniSvilis institutis folkloris, dialeqtologiisa da emigrantuli literaturis kvlevis ganyofilebis xelmZRvaneli, saqarTvelos sapatriarqos xiWauris wminda abuserisZe tbelis saswavlo universitetis profesori elza futkaraZe saerTaSoriso samecniero forumebSi aqtiurad monawileobs. igi Cveni stumaria.
– qalbatono elza, bolo erTi wlis ganmavlobaSi saerTaSoriso samecniero forumebze saintereso kvlevebi waradgineT. yvelaze met mniSvnelobas romels aniWebT?
– vsargeblob SemTxveviT da TanavugrZnob Cvens mezobel xalxs – saSineli tragedia daatydaT Tavs, sityvebi uZluria . . . ufalma daifaros yvela. rac Seexeba Tqvens SekiTxvas, vfiqrob, yvelaze mniSvnelovani gaxlavT saerTaSoriso samecniero konferenciaze `SavizRvispireTi – civilizaciaTa gzajvaredinze~ wardgenili moxseneba, romelic konstantine odiSarias artaanSi mogzaurobis dRiurebis mniSvnelobas exeboda. batonma konstantinem, rogorc saqvelmoqmedo sazogadoebis rwmunebulma, daiara artaanisa da Cildiris soflebi, Sekriba cnobebi iq mcxovrebi qarTvelebis Sesaxeb. man am mxareSi 1913-1918 wlebSi imogzaura. dRiurebi sxvadasxva kuTxiTa Tu mimarTebiTaa saintereso. aq gvaqvs soflebis detaluri geografiuli aRweriloba, statistikuri monacemebi mcxovrebTa Sesaxeb. igi konkretulad aRwers taZrebs, soflebis yofas, Tqmulebebs, iZleva toponimTa Sesaxeb cnobebsa da axsnas. man 331 sofeli Semoiara. Cven mwiri cnobebi gvaqvs artaanis mxaris Sesaxeb, Sesabamisad, misi mogzaurobis dRiurebis mniSvneloba fasdaudebelia da eTnologiuri, folkloruli, toponimuri Tu sxva kuTxiT – saintereso. profesorma SuSana futkaraZem Tavis droze, stambolis qarTvelTa savaneSi daculi dokumentebis mixedviT, mniSvnelovani masalebi moipova.
– misma mowafem da saqmianobis gamgrZelebelma am mimarTebiT ra gaakeTeT?
– 2000 wlidan moyolebuli, araerTgzis vaxldi qalbaton SuSanas stambolis qarTuli savanis biblioTekisa da saarqivo masalis Sesaswavlad. man araerTi statia, monografia uZRvna am kulturul kerasTan dakavSirebul sakiTxebs. SuSana futkaraZis xelmZRvanelobiT, bsu-is niko berZeniSvilis instituti dResac aqtiurad ganagrZobs savanis saarqivo masalis Seswavlas. ukve samzeozea wignis `werilebi stambolis qarTuli savanidan~ ori tomi, romlis Tanaavtori mec var. grZeldeba muSaoba mesame tomis gamosacemad.
– muhajiroba, tao-klarjeTi aqtualuria Tqveni samecniero naSromebis CamonaTvalSi . . .
– diax, asea. orive aqtualuri da faseulia CemTvis. es Cveni warsuli, amasTanave, Tanmdevi tkivilia. mtkiva tao-klarjeTis dakarguli TiToeuli goji miwa, didi grigol xanZTelis, opizrebis, oSkelebis, mtbevarebis naterfali miwa . . . es xom saqarTvelos is kuTxe iyo, romelzec ilia WavWavaZe werda: `Cveni yofili cxovreba iq ayvavebula, Cvens sicocxles iq ufurCqnia, Cveni sulis Zlierebas iq aRumarTavs Tavisi saxelganTqmuli droSa . . . swavla, ganaTleba, mamulisadmi Tavgametebuli siyvaruli TiTqmis iqidam efineboda Cvens qveyanas erT drosa~. miyvars, ai, aseTi, didebuli warsulis mqone, dRes ki tkiviliani tao-klarjeTi. cremlisa da sevda-wuxilis istoriaa muhajirobac. adamiani tovebs sakuTar naamagar saxl-kars, naloliaveb kar-midamos, samSoblos, winaparTa saflavebs, sabudars tovebs (ra atovebinebs, es kidev sxvaa) da midis . . . gulmkvdari midis . . . es avbediToba Cveni kuTxis istoriis nawilia. amdenad, orive sakiTxi aqtualuri da tkiviliania CemTvis.
– `kbili mousinjeT~ zurab gorgilaZisa da mamia varSaniZis poezias. uSualod ra Temebs exebiT?
– Semoqmedis nafiqr-naazrevis Seswavla faqizi da saintereso sakiTxia. faqizia, ramdenadac Tavad Semoqmedis Sinagan, sulier samyarosTan giwevs Sexeba, sainteresoa, ramdenadac TanaSemoqmedic xar da avtorTan erTad mogzaurob mis samyaroSi, mis sasityveTSi. mravali kuTxiT, marTlac saocaria zurab gorgilaZis poezia. Tematurad mravalferovani, sxvadasxva kuTxiTaa gasaazrebeli. xan samSoblos efereba, tao-klarjeTis tkivili mosvenebas akargvinebs `dangreuli klarjeTis princsa Tu tao-klarjeTis bokvers~, gansakuTrebiT eloliaveb-esiyvaruleba sityva batons da samas weliwads Rvinousvami, samas weliwads namarxulevi, samas weliwads naborkilari sityvis Zalis, madlis, feradovnebis, siZlieris zeimia misi sasityveTi. sityvawarmoeba, leqsikur erTeulTa Sinaarsobrivi tevadoba, leqsikuri dialeqtizmebis stilizacia, xatovaneba Tqmisa gvajadoebs, da rac mTavaria, did adamianobas, did siyvaruls RaRadebs misi Semoqmedeba. ai, is CamonaTvali, rac mainteresebs zurab gorgilaZis poeziaSi. rac Seexeba mamia varSaniZis poezias, missave sityvebs moviSvelieb: `WeSmariti poetis natvra unda iyos, Seqmnas iseTi wigni, kacs misi wakiTxva rom esiamovneba, eimedeba, Seayvarebs adamians, bunebas, samSoblos, vaJkacobas, sikeTes, mSvenierebas~. da marTlac, man aseTi poezia dagvitova. tao-klarjeTisa da muhajirobis Tema misi poeziis erT-erTi mniSvnelovani ZarRvia. gansakuTrebuli emociisaa am Temaze Seqmnili leqsebi. SeuZlebelia Cveni cnobierebidan waiSalos misi leqsi `yelwiTela~. faqtobrivad, es aris balada Sin dabrunebul muhajirze. aseTi sulisSemZvreli bevri leqsi amSvenebs mamia varSaniZis poezias. erTgan werda: `da maradisad vrcelia da didia Cemi ocneba, siyvaruli da muzis ganfeniloba~. marTlac didi, emociuri, cremlian-sixaruliania misi muzis ganfeniloba. sxva guli, sxva SemarTeba Cans mis poeziaSi. ai, ramac kbili momasinjvina zurab gorgilaZisa da mamia varSaniZis poeziisaTvis.
– sxalTis taZari . . .
– zurab gorgilaZe gansakuTrebuli siyvaruliT gvixatavs sxalTis taZris mxatvrul saxes Tavis poeziaSi. sxalTa misi sulis nawili, sulis arilia. rogorc Tavad ambobs, misi `berdedaa~. aqve gavixseneb, ra aris poetisaTvis sxalTa: `dabinduli mTebis erTi galoba~ an `aWaris mTebis erTi galoba~, `klarjuli vazis nazi xanZari~, `mTebis rwmena da rjuli mTebis~. leqss waikiTxav da guls mogiklavs sxalTis taZris tkivili, samans gadasuli mwuxareba . . . es tkivili xom Cveni kuTxis mware warsulis amoZaxilia. amdenad, es Cemi tkivilicaa, Tqvenic . . . bunebrivia, am Temas ver avuvlidi gulgrilad da am tkiviliT daiwera statia `sxalTis taZris saxe zurab gorgilaZis SemoqmedebaSi~. imasac davsZen, rom `daWrili da gaqurduli~, `gamobolili da gamoWvartluli~, `gamoSignuli da gamojiqnuli~, magram yovelTvis `mxne da jiquri~ sityvis Zala da kverTxi yvelaze Zlier maSin igrZnoba, roca poeti sxalTis taZarze gvesaubreba. swored am emociurobis gavlenaa is, razedac statiaSia saubari.
– `leqsikuri dialeqtizmebi `vefxistyaosanSi~ romeli kuTxis dialeqts gaxsenebT?
– `vefxistyaosnis~ sityvaqmnadoba saocaria, leqsikuri erTeulebi ki Sinaarsobrivad da saxeobrivad – STambeWdavi. poemis yoveli axali wakiTxvisas `SemogefeTeba~ xolme sityvebi, romlebic xSirad gesmis yoveldRiurobaSi. sakuTari kuTxis surneli moaqvs am sityvebs. ramdenimes davasaxeleb: naTxzeni, gaqarda, daburva, wadili, biji, drami, winwkali . . . es sityvebi imave mniSvnelobiTaa gamoyenebuli poemaSi, rogoradac xSirad gvesmis aWarul metyvelebaSi. es Cveulebrivia, Tu gavixsenebT SoTa rusTavelis sadaurobas. didebuli mesxeTis nawili Cvenc varT.
– xiWauris saswavlo universitetSi saqmianobis dasturia saintereso moxsenebebis wardgena didaWaraSi gamarTul samecniero konferenciebze, magram ufro aqtualuria saerTaSoriso samecniero konferenciaze – `Cveni sulierebis balavari~ wardgenili moxseneba `saqarTvelos kaTolikos-patriarqi ilia meore qarTuli enis Sesaxeb~. ra garemoebam gikarnaxaT aseT saTuT TemasTan Sexeba?
– CemTvis patriarqis sityva, qadageba, epistole erTgvari kodeqsia, sxvadasxvawaxnagovani. epistoleebSi udidesi mecnieruli siRrmiT ganixilavs qarTuli enis araerT saWirboroto sakiTxs. araerTgzis saubrobs patriarqi enaze, rogorc sulier saunjeze. aman mikarnaxa, am kuTxiT kidev erTxel gadamekiTxa patriarqis epistoleni. Cems cnobierebaSi daleqilia Cveni uwmindesis sadidebeli, qeba qarTuli enisa: `hoi, Cveno enav, Cveni mwuxarebisa da sixarulis mesaidumlev, cisartyelasaviT mSvidobis momfeno, myinvariviT spetako da TergiviT mSfoTvarev, Cveno xelTuqmnelo sveto, camde amaRlebulo, saukuneTa qartexilebSi gamovlilo lerwamo, saZirkvelo da mtkice fuZev Cveno, Cveno saunjeTa Semqmnelo da damcvelo, mTebis Zlierebav, mefev da darajo, Cveni eris rwmenisa, erTobisa da mTlianobisa~. an kidev, patriarqi brZanebs: `qarTuli ena – es aris musika, magram ara miwieri, aramed zecidan gadmosuli sulieri musika! igia Cveni erisa da qveynis gadamrCeni~. roca Seni mSobliuri, Seni dedis enis, Seni saakvne enis mimarT aseT saocar, Rrmaazrovan sityvebs moismen, damerwmunebiT, mravalgzis miubrundebi patriarqis epistoleebs wasakiTxad da dasafiqreblad.
– devsqelisa da maWaxlis xeobebsac gaswvdiT. ra Taviseburebani aRmoaCineT?
– ar visaubreb im gramatikul Tu leqsikur Taviseburebebze, riTac am xeobaTa metyvelebaa saxasiaTo. vityodi erTs, rom maT gadainaxes, daicves da dRemde mogvitanes qarTuli ena, qarTuli suli, qarTuli cnobiereba. iq nacarSi gadamaluli sityva gvelodeba asagizgizeblad. iqaurma gmirma dedebma ube-kalTiT gadamaluli qarTuli sityva Semogvinaxes. sityva bgeraTa ubralo SeerTeba rodia, gadarCenili qarTuli suli, qarTuli zne-Cveulebaa. imaze kargi da sulisSemZvreli ra unda iyos, Sexval devsqelSi, maWaxelSi, mklavebs gagiSlian gulSi Casaxuteblad da mogikiTxaven: kai xar? da pasuxi: kai var – axarebT.
– marto xulos municipalitetis xalxuri poeziiT ratom SemoifargleT?
– am kiTxvaSi Camaluli qveteqstia. albaT is, rom ratom ara Suaxevis municipalitetis xalxuri poezia? Cveni institutis Sromebis ramdenime tomi municipalitetebis istoriis, eTnologiis, folkloris, dialeqtologiis sakiTxebs mieZRvna. am proeqtis farglebSi me damevala xulos municipalitetis xalxuri poeziis nawilis damuSaveba.
– sadoqtoro disertaciis Temasa da mecnier xelmZRvanels xom ar gaixsenebT?
– Cemi sadoqtoro disertaciis Tema gaxlavT `saSuali gvaris uRlebis Taviseburebani saSual qarTulSi~. sakmaod rTuli da saintereso sakiTxia. mecnier-xelmZRvaneli iyo Tbilisis ivane javaxiSvilis saxelobis saxelmwifo universitetis profesori, enaTmecnieri qalbatoni neli babunaSvili. akademiuri, oficialuri, momTxovni, kategoriuli gaxldaT qalbatoni neli. me misgan bevri ram viswavle. saerTod, pedagogs didi mniSvneloba aqvs adamianis cxovrebaSi. acxonos ufalma qalbatoni nelis suli.
– Suaxeveli futkaraZeebis gvarSi, SuSana futkaraZis Semdeg, meore qali xarT, romelmac cxovreba filologiur mecnierebas daukavSireT. vis umadliT?
– vumadli ufals. yvelaferi RvTis nebaa. am nebis nawili aRmovCndi mec. vumadli Cems dedas, ganusazRvrelia dedis amagi, Rvawli. madloba Cems uZvirfases, saocar, gmir qals, Cems dedas. vumadli Cems pirvel maswavlebels – goguca maswavlebels, WaRara, grZeli, dawnuli TmiT, Svilmkvdari deda patarebs didi siyvaruliT gvaswavlida wera-kiTxvas. vumadli sakuTar Tavsac, rom es arCevani gavakeTe.
– ojaxis roli – Tqvens mecnierul sarbielze . . .
– namdvilad uflis didi wyalobaa Cemi ojaxi, Svilebi – daviTi da Tamari. ojaxi mniSvnelovani navsayudelia CemTvis. madloba Cems meuRles Tanadgomisa da xelSewyobisTvis. yvelafrisTvis ki, upirvelesad, madloba ufals. ojaxica da profesiuli saqmianobac did Zalisxmevas iTxovs. vfiqrob, SevZeli da Tanabrad gavarTvi Tavi profesiul da ojaxur movaleobas. sasworze ver davdeb verc erTs imisaTvis, Tu romeli gadawonis. orive gansakuTrebulia CemTvis, avseben erTmaneTs.
– qalbaton SuSana futkaraZis Tanadgoma aRniSneT. Tavad Tu xarT axalbeda mecnierTa gzamkvlevi?
– arafrad Rirs adamianis saqmianoba, Tu axalgazrdebs gzamkvlevad ver gamoadgebi. Tamamad SemiZlia vTqva: diax, axalbedebisaTvis gamikvalavs gza da amas isev siamovnebiT gavagrZeleb. uxerxulia, me visaubro am sakiTxze. isini ukeT ityvian amas. Tu momavals gverdiT ar daudeqi, Tu gzis gakvalvaSi ar daexmare, xeli ar gauwode, aba, raRaa adamianoba?
– wlebia, leqciebis kursi migyavT xiWauris universitetSi. am saganmanaTleblo keras ra rols aniWebT?
– saqarTvelos sapatriarqos wminda abuserisZe tbelis universitetis roli da mniSvneloba ara oden CemTvis, zogadad, Cveni kuTxisaTvis ganuzomelia. es aris samWedlo qarTuli cnobierebis Zlierebisa. Tamamad vityvi, saxelmwifoebrivi saqme gaakeTa am universitetma. ramdeni axalgazrdis gadineba xdeboda swavla-ganaTlebis misaRebad mezobel saxelmwifoSi?! ai, amis sapirwoned dafuZnda es universiteti da madloba Cvens brZen patriarqs. ramdeni axalgazrda, ekonomiuri mdgomareobidan gamomdinare, ver SeZlebda ganaTlebis dauflebas, rom ara es universiteti. Zalian didi mniSvneloba eniWeba aq erovnuli sagnebis swavlas. yvela specialobis studenti swavlobs saqarTvelos istorias, qarTul literaturas, qarTul enas, qarTul xelovnebas. madloba meufe spiridons usazRvrod didi msaxurebisTvis, didi RvawlisTvis. meufe spiridoni Cveni kuTxis grigol xanZTelia. ufalma dalocos da didxans eRvawos Cvens meufes RvTisa da eris samsaxurSi.
– uaxloes gegmebze gviTxariT?
– Canafiqri da survili mravali maqvs. ramdenad SevZlebT ganxorcielebas, dro gviCvenebs. Zalian mindoda aWarul metyvelebaSi mimobneuli xatovani sityva-Tqmebis Tavmoyra da gamocema. ufals madloba, survili realobad iqca. axlaxan Cemi da qalbatoni nanuli noRaidelis TanaavtorobiT daibeWda es wigni – `xatovani sityva-Tqmebi aWarulSi~. Cveni ganyofileba agrZelebs niko berZeniSvilis institutis saarqivo fondebSi daculi masalis gamocemas. ukve dabeWdilia `aWaruli saunje~, xuTi tomi. vmuSaobT meeqvse tomze da wels kidec gamoicema. masSi Suaxevis municipalitetis soflebSi 1958-1959 wlebSi Cawerili masalebi iqneba warmodgenili. aseve wels daibeWdeba aWaruli dialeqtis leqsikoni. ukve meeqvse welia, vmuSaobT ganyofilebis mecnier-TanamSromlebi mis gamosacemad. es Sromatevadi da rTuli saqmea. aWaruli dialeqtis leqsikoni mxolod samecniero sivrcisaTvis mniSvnelovani SenaZeni ar iqneba, igi samagido wignTa rigSi uTuod daiWers gansakuTrebul adgils.
