რა ხდება ყოფილ სახელისუფლებო გუნდში და როგორ აფასებს ქვეყანაში არსებულ ვითარებას პარტიის ქობულეთის ორგანიზაციის ხელმძღვანელი?
დარინა გაბაიძე 514 22 22 80 –
saqarTveloSi mravali partiaa, romelTa mizani da arsi gansxvavebulia. zogi prodasavlur ideebs qadagebs, zogi, saxelmwifoebrivad moqmedebs, zogi kidev prorusuli ideebis matarebelia, ramac qarTuli saxelmwifos ganviTarebaze uaryofiTad imoqmeda da moqmedebs, yovel SemTxvevaSi, ase acxadeben eqspertebi da partiebs Sida demokratiis ganviTarebas urCeven. am mimarTebiT mxolod ramdenime partiis dasaxeleba SeiZleba, romlebic qveyanaSi politikur aminds qmnian. miuxedavad imisa, rom `nacmoZraobam~ 2012 wlis arCevnebi waago, politikuri arenidan ar gamqrala, magram axla ryevebs ganicdis, rac partiaSi ganviTarebulma movlenebmac daadastura. melia axalma liderma, xabeiSvilma Secvala. eqspertTa nawili yofili mmarTveli partiis daSlas ar gamoricxavs, mmarTveli partia ki maT momaval arCevnebSi fiaskos uwinaswarmetyvelebs, rasac cxadia, `nacmoZraobis~ wevrebi ar iziareben. ra xdeba amJamad yofil saxelisuflebo gundSi, rogor afaseben qveyanaSi arsebul viTarebas? am da sxva aqtualur sakiTxebze gvesaubreba `nacmoZraobis~ qobuleTis organizaciis Tavmjdomare da municipalitetis sakrebulos wevri laSa komaxiZe.
– vidre bolodroindel movlenebze visaubrebdeT, minda gkiTxoT, ramdeni xania, rac `nacmoZraobis~ wevri xarT da ratom gadawyviteT am partiaSi gawevrianeba?
– `nacionalur moZraobaSi~ Cemi integrirebis mTavari mizezi iyo da aris am partiis damfuZneblis mier Seqmnili saxelmwifoebrivi xedva. mixeil saakaSvili aris adamiani, romlis politikurma ideologiam, qarizmatulobam, qveynis Senebis tempma, SemarTebam, Jinma da swrafvam ukeTesobisken Cemze sakmaod adreuli asakidan moaxdina gavlena. garda miSas faqtorisa, partias warmoadgenda bevri profesionali, qveyanaze Seyvarebuli, patrioti adamiani, romelTaTvisac mTavari amosavali wertili iyo idea da am ideisTvis bolomde msaxureba. maTTan xangrZlivi da uSualo komunikaciisas, gamiCnda survili, vyofiliyavi am didi ojaxis wevri da am adamianebTan erTad gamegrZelebina karieruli saqmianoba. 2020 wlis ivnisidan mergo pativad, gavmxdariyavi zemoT xsenebuli partiis axalgazrduli frTis Tavmjdomare da adgilobriv, Zalian karg axalgazrdebTan erTad mekeTebina saqme, romelmac didi gamocdileba da stimuli momca am kuTxiT moRvaweobis. 2021 wlis TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebze partiis gadawyvetilebiT warvsdeqi municipalitetis sakrebulos proporciuli siis II nomrad. miuxedavad Zalian aqtiuri winasaarCevno kampaniisa, oligarqiulma reJimma SeZlo da saqarTvelos masStabiT TiTqmis yvelgan gaayalba arCevnebi, gamonaklisi arc qobuleTi yofila. swored amitom, moyolebuli 2021 wlis 2 oqtombridan, Cems gundTan erTad miwevs brZola opoziciidan da amas vakeTebT, rogorc sakrebulos tribunidan, aseve quCidan.
– miuxedavad Tqveni argumentebisa, mmarTveli partiis wevrebi acxadeben, rom `nacmoZraoba~ destruqciuli Zalaa da mosaxleobam amitomac CamoaSora mmarTvelobas. . .
– 2012 wlis saparlamento arCevnebi erT-erTi umniSvnelovanesi movlena iyo qarTuli politikuri cxovrebisaTvis, saqarTvelos istoriaSi pirvelad moxda xelisuflebis arCevnebis gziT, mSvidobianad gadabareba, risi garantic, pirvel rigSi, gaxldaT swored mixeil saakaSvili da `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~. partiam aCvena umaRlesi demokratiuli standarti, rac (vimeoreb) saqarTvelos istorias ar axsovs. am politikuri aqtis Semdeg, me vsvam kiTxvas: rogor SeiZleba partias ewodos destruqciuli, romelmac qveynis marTvis sadaveebi uprecedentod mSvidobiani da usisxlo revoluciiT, qarTveli xalxis absoluturi umravlesobis CarTulobiT moipova da, aseve, mSvidobianad gadaabara oponents? rac Seexeba mmarTvelobisTvis CamoSorebas, amomrCevelma Cemi partia mmarTvelobidan erTi martivi mizezis gamo gadairCia. maT miiRes konkretuli winasaarCevno dapirebebi, romlis Sesrulebis SemTxvevaSi sakmaod gaumjobesdeboda cxovrebis done da qarTveli xalxi namdvilad imsaxurebda ukeTess, amas ki, yvelaze kargad swored `nacionaluri moZraoba~ iazrebda. miuxedavad `rusuli ocnebis~ da oligarq ivaniSvilis winasaarCevno dapirebebis absurdulobisa, raSic Cemi gundis 99% iyo darwmunebuli, amomrCevels mieca arCevanis Tavisufleba. xelisuflebaSi, amave xelisuflebis wyaros, anu xalxis motyuebiT mosulebs aranairi moraluri ufleba ar aqvT, vinmes uwodon destruqciuli.
– Tqvens partias arc opoziciis nawili indobs, magaliTad, `evropuli saqarTvelos~ wevrebi acxadeben, rom `nacmoZraoba~ drodadro uneburad xelisuflebis wisqvilze asxams wyals. . .
– vurCevdi yvela opozicioner kolegas, sanam daiwyeben an ganaaxleben politikuri diskreditaciis mcdelobas `nacionalur moZraobaze~, waikiTxon Cvens gerbze oqros asoebiT amotvifruli devizi da kargad gaiazron – `Zala erTobaSia~.
– cxadia, gverds ver avuvliT `nacmoZraobaSi~ momxdar cvlilebebs, ras ityviT bolodroindel movlenebze?
– 2022 wlis 9 noemberi sakmaod mniSvnelovani da sagulisxmo procesebis dawyebis TariRia Cvens partiaSi. `nacionaluri moZraobis~ regionalurma liderebma moviTxoveT partiis Tavmjdomarisa da menejmentis Secvla, rasac win uZRoda mTeli rigi procesebi. moTxovnas mxari auba partiis warmomadgenelTa umravlesobamac, rasac mohyva Sidapartiuli arCevnebi, aqac ki partiam aCvena demokratiis maRali standarti da ukve meored, eleqtronuli gziT arCeulia axali Tavmjdomare, dakompleqtda axali politikuri sabWo da daiwyo aqtiuri reorganizebis procesi, romelic dRemde grZeldeba. rac Seexeba cvlilebebis moTxovnis winapirobebs, partias hyavs naxevar milionze meti regularuli amomrCeveli, romelTa nomer pirvel moTxovnas warmoadgenda aqtiuri brZola reJimis winaaRmdeg mesame prezidentis sicocxlis gadarCenisTvis. Cveni azriT, partiis maSindeli Tavmjdomare ar an ver idga mowodebis simaRleze da ver akmayofilebda Cveni aqtiuri mxardamWerebis dakveTas, moqalaqeebi amaze sajaro Sexvedrebis Tu RonisZiebebis drosac svamdnen kiTxvebs, rac, ra Tqma unda, Cvenis mxriv ver iqneboda ugulebelyofili. `bloqCeinis sistemiT~ Catarebulma eleqtronulma Sidapartiulma arCevnebma aCvena, rom `nacionaluri moZraoba~ aris cocxali organizmi, romelsac Seswevs Zala, upasuxos yvela gamowvevas da aCvenos maRali demokratiulobis standarti. rac Seexeba saarCevno kampaniis dros vnebaTaRelvasa da garkveul daZabulobas mxareTa Soris, Sida praimerizi nebismier evropuli donis qveyanaSi aris am yovelives gamomwvevi winapiroba. `nacionalurma moZraobam~ gaiara is gza, romelic araerTgzis gauvlia aSS-is Tu sxva, dasavleTis qveynebis opoziciur partiebs da Rrmad mwams, am procesidan Cveni gundi metad gaZlierebuli gamovida.
– ramdenad perspeqtiuli iqneba levan xabeiSvili, rogorc lideri?
– garda imisa, rom levan xabeiSvili aris saparlamento fraqcia `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ lideri, partiaSi eWira antikorufciuli mdivnis Tanamdeboba, romelic erT-erTi yvelaze aqtiuri da qmediTi iyo ukanaskneli Tveebis ganmavlobaSi. amavdroulad, levan xabeiSvilma megobrebTan erTad Seqmna `antikorufciuli moZraoba~, romelic sakmaod did diskomforts uqmnida oligarq ivaniSvils da masTan daaxloebul pirebs. me, piradad, vicnob levans da mimuSavia masTan erTad, is gaxlavT Zalian energiuli, Sromismoyvare da saqmeze Seyvarebuli, mebrZoli politikosi. maSin, rodesac politikuri procesebi iyo minelebuli da qveyanaSi gabatonebuli iyo nihilizmi, rac prorusuli mmarTvelobis yvelaze didi mokavSirea, levani da `antikorufciuli moZraobis~ warmomadgenlebi yoveldRiurad amxeldnen danaSaulebriv sistemas Sav-bnel saqmianobaSi. maSasadame, am da sxva argumentebze dayrdnobiT partiis umravlesobam swored masze gaakeTa arCevani da me Rrmad var darwmunebuli am arCevanis sisworeSi.
– imasac amboben, rom xabeiSvilis ukan merabiSvili da kezeraSvili dganan da realurad isini marTaven `nacmoZraobas~. . .
– ivane merabiSvili da daviT kezeraSvili arian partia `nacionaluri moZraobis~ erT-erTi damfuZneblebi, mSvidobiani revolucionerebi da SemdgomSi xelisuflebis maRalCinosnebi. arc erTi maTgani ar apirebs aqtiur politikur cxovrebaSi CarTvas da miT ufro, roca saubaria partiul saqmianobaze. sagulisxmo garemoebaa, rom vano merabiSvils samartoo sakanSi 6 weli da 8 Tve aqvs moxdili erT-erT politikuri niSniT Sekeril saqmeze da igi gamarTlebulia strasburgis adamianis uflebaTa sasamarTlos mier, masTan mimarTebaSi darRveulia me-18 muxli, rac iTvaliswinebs politikuri niSniT devnilobas. me ar vapireb mis distancirebas partiisgan, diax, igi mxars uWerda cvlilebebs partiaSi da diax, mas hqonda amasTan dakavSirebiT sakuTari azri, amaSi sagangaSos verafers vxedav. aravis aqvs ufleba, partiis damfuZneblebs aekrZalos azris gamoxatva da dafiqsireba. rac Seexeba daviT kezeraSvils, is atarebs politikuri devnilis statuss da mas mxolod saqarTveloSi Camosvlis ufleba aqvs SezRuduli. misTvis nebismieri evropuli Tu dasavluri qveynis kari aris Ria, garda saqarTvelosi, rac metyvelebs erT martiv rameze, – `qarTuli ocneba~ mis winaaRmdeg moqmedebs TiTidan gamowovili, SeTiTxnili braldebebiT, mikerZoebuli sasamarTlos gadawyvetilebaze dayrdnobiT. realurad, levan xabeiSvilis ukan dgas `nacionaluri moZraobis~ mxardamWerTa mTeli armia.
– sxvaTa Soris, eqspertebi ar gamoricxaven `nacmoZraobis~ daSlas, amboben, rom SesaZloa, meliam Tavis gundTan erTad datovos partia. elodebiT movlenebis aseT ganviTarebas?
– `erTiani nacionaluri moZraobis~ daSlas, ra Tqma unda, gamovricxav. samwuxarod, bevria am qveyanaSi, vinc sazogadoebas Tavs eqspertad acnobs, sinamdvileSi isini xelisuflebis mier daqiravebul lobistebs warmoadgenen, romlebic mosaxleobaSi avrceleben im narativs, rasac Rebuloben Crdilovani mmarTvelisgan. yofili Tavmjdomaris partiidan SesaZlo wasvlas ki verc erTi logikuri axsniT ver mohyveba partiis daSla, radgan rogorc partiis liderTa, aseve sakrebuloebisa da regionalur warmomadgenelTa sruliumravlesoba Sida `praimerizis~ Semdeg agrZelebs partiul saqmianobas da partia ara konkretul subieqtebze, es iqneba melia, dekanoiZe, xabeiSvili Tu beJaSvili, aramed Cvens amomrCevelsa da gulmxurvale mxardamWerebze dgas. alogikurad mimaCnia partiaSi, romelsac hqvia `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~, sakiTxTa personificireba da konkretul politikosebze miTuri warmodgenebis Seqmna, miT ufro, roca gvaxsovs 2016 wlis magaliTi, romelsac Rirseulad SevxvdiT da gamowvevad miviReT, roca partia datova liderTa srulma umravlesobam da Seiqmna `evropuli saqarTvelo~, magram wlebis Semdeg, arCevnebmac da mTelma rigma movlenebma gvaCvena, Tu ra Zalis matarebelia `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ da aq vinc ar unda movides, an vinc ar unda wavides, Cven vrCebiT qarTveli xalxis samsaxurSi, borotebis imperiis winaaRmdeg brZolis avangardSi, vinaidan es partia ekuTvnis mixeil saakaSvils da qarTvel xalxs da iarsebebs kidev Zalian didxans.
– Tqveni partia atarebs aqciebs saakaSvilis ucxoeTSi gadayvanasTan dakavSirebiT, Tumca vxedavT, rom aqciebi iseTi masStaburi ar aris, rogoric unda iyos… xom ar fiqrobT, rom mosaxleoba Tqveni partiis mimarT uaryofiTadaa ganwyobili?
– amomrCevelTa nawili, ra Tqma unda, skeptikurad afasebs lokalur aqciebs da maT ricxvs miewereba politikosTa didi nawilic, magram rogorc zemoT aRvniSne, partia bolo periodSi erTgvarad amovardnili iyo kalapotidan da ver asrulebda amomrCevelTa dakveTas, ramac gamoiwvia uimedoba da bevr Cems aqtiur TanamebrZols aiZula procesebisgan distancireba, qveynidan wasvla Tu partiis datoveba. ra Tqma unda, am xnis manZilze Cven sakmao danaklisi ganvicadeT, magram es ar niSnavs partiis radarebidan gaqrobas, CamoSlas an amomrCevelTa umravlesobis uaryofiTi ganwyobis gamomJRavnebas. partias hyavs axali Tavmjdomare, axali politikuri sabWo da, Sesabamisad, moqmedebs axali menejmentiT, axal saxeebTan erTad, dRes Cven erTgvar, moTelviT reJimSi varT da vakvirdebiT movlenaTa ganviTarebas. Rrmad var darwmunebuli, rom roca dadgeba amis dro da qarTveli xalxi `rusul ocnebas~ etyvis did aras, raSic lomis wils Seitans gaZlierebuli `nacionaluri moZraoba~. rac Seexeba mcire, lokalur aqciebs, Cveni gadawyvetilebiT, mniSvnelovania, partiam Zalebi adgilze (regionebSi, raionebSi) mosinjos, gaaRvivos muxti da gaaCinos axali saprotesto kera. Cemi gadmosaxedidan aqciebi ara protestis monawileTa raodenobiTa da ricxviT, aramed paTosiT da SemarTebiT izomeba. mniSvnelovania aqcia atarebdes prodasavlur xasiaTs, romelSic Tavmoyrilia yvela is moTxovna, romelic mxolod dadebiTad waadgeba Cveni qveynis momavals da mgonia, rom arc erTi saRad moazrovne ar fiqrobs, rom saqarTvelos mesame prezidentis cixeSi wamebiT sikvdili saqarTvelos dasavluri momavlisaTvis damazianebeli ar iqneba.
– sxvaTa Soris, `nacmoZraobaSi~ arsebuli garkveuli uTanxmoebebi gamoCnda iqidanac, rom partia ver SeTanxmda parlamentis datovebasTan dakavSirebiT. magaliTad, xabeiSvili acxadebs, rom partiam boikoti unda gamoucxados parlaments, xolo melia aRniSnavs, rom amgvari sanaxevro nabijebiT sawadels ver miaRwevT…
– `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ Zalian didi politikuri partiaa, sadac Tavs iyris uamravi politikuri lideri. cxadia, aq iqneba azrTa sxvadasxvaoba da gansxvavebulad dagegmili brZolis strategia ivaniSvilis winaaRmdeg. vgoneb, aRniSnuli sakiTxi mxolod teqnikur xasiaTs atarebs da xels ar SeuSlis mTavari miznis miRwevisken swrafvas.
– aranakleb mniSvnelovani iyo bolodroindeli sociologiuri gamokiTxva, magaliTad ND-is mixedviT, `nacmoZraobas~ mosaxleobis 6 procentis ndoba aqvs, mmarTvel gunds ki 25-is. am mxriv ramdenad mosalodnelia, `nacmoZraoba~ aRar iyos mTavari opoziciuri Zala?
– aTwleulebia, `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ yelSi eCxireba putinsa da ivaniSvils, es nebismierma moqalaqem icis, vinc odnav maincaa Caxeduli politikur procesebSi. nacvlad imisa, rom `ocnebam~ Seasrulos dapirebebi, Seqmnas samuSao adgilebi, gaaumjobesos ekonomikuri niSnuli, gaataros jandacvis, ganaTlebis, Tavdacvis reformebi, maTi mTavari sazrunavi kvlav `nacionaluri moZraobis~ dasrulebaa, radgan swored Cven varT Zala, romelic win aRvudgebiT ivaniSvils da mis gunds maTi mzakvruli, Crdilovani gegmebis ganxorcielebisas. rac Seexeba ND-is kvlevebs, Cveni partiis uamrav gulmxurvale mxardamWers ojaxebis gamosakvebad emigraciaSi uwevs wasvla, amavdroulad, mogexsenebaT, reJimis mier danergili fsevdosaSiSroebebi da wlebis manZilze gatarebuli represiebi Cvens winaaRmdeg, rasac mosaxleoba im zomamde mihyavs, rom araTu Riad, faruladac ki uWirT TavianTi azris dafiqsireba. kremlisturi propaganda, mTeli saxelmwifoebrivi manqana da Zalovani struqtura muSaoben imaze, rom mosaxleobaSi Caklan winaaRmdegobis moZraoba, protestis gancda da amis xarjze SeinarCunon marTvis sadaveebi. partiis reorganizebis procesi dRemde mimdinareobs da Cven jer kidev ar varT mowodebis simaRleze, magram wiwilebs Semodgomaze iTvlian, megobrebo.
– Tqven rom axla sxva opoziciuri partiis wevri iyoT, ras urCevdiT `nacmoZraobas~ da xelisuflebas Secdomebis gamosworebis TvalsazrisiT?
– Cems Tavs sxva politikuri partiis wevrad ver warmovidgen, am qveynis Sida mtrebs ki rCevebs gulwrfelad ar mivcemdi, isini, ubralod, unda gandevno xelisuflebidan. amaze sxva komentars ver gavakeTeb.
– ras gvetyviT bolo periodSi qveyanaSi mimdinare movlenebze?
– dRes saqarTvelo erTdroulad dgas Zalian didi gamowvevis da gansacdelis winaSe. Cven mogveca istoriuli SesaZlebloba, saqarTvelo gaxdes evrokavSiris wevrobis kandidati qveyana, rac mogvcems ukeTesad cxovrebis SesaZleblobas da razec ocnebobdnen Cveni winaprebi. yvelam kargad viciT, rom qarTvelebis da evropelebis mWidro urTierToba XII saukunidan iRebs saTaves da Cveni konstituciuri movaleobaa, viswrafodeT dasavleTisken. am kursis nomer pirveli Semferxebeli ki rusi oligarqia, romelic zedmiwevniT asrulebs kremlis davalebebs. amaze metyvelebs Cveni dasavleli partniorebis uamravi gauTvaliswinebeli mowodeba, kandidatis statusis moniWebamde kritikuli telekompaniis damfuZnebel nika gvaramias dakaveba, prezident saakaSvilis mizanmimarTuli sikvdilis qronikis inscenireba, misi, rogorc politikosis, ukrainis moqalaqis, msjavrdebulis Tu pacientis uflebaTa fexqveS gaTelva, politizebuli sasamarTlo, prokuratura, policia da ase Semdeg. yovelive es aris is, rac yvelaze did safrTxes uqmnis Cveni qveynis evropul momavals da xels uwyobs qveyanaSi politikur destabilizacias. saxelmwifo inspeqtoris samsaxuris gauqmebiT, xelisuflebam srulad amoZirkva damoukidebeli institucia, rac imTaviTve arademokratiuli procesebis nawilia. represiebi ganicades kulturis muSakebma, rasac mohyva sruli rRveva am mimarTulebiT, Tavze gvengreva Cveni kulturuli memkvidreoba gelaTisa da jvris monastris saxiT. diskreditebulia prezidentis instituti, romlis arc erT mowodebas da SeniSvnas ar iTvaliswinebs prorusuli sistema, CrdiloeTze motrfiale `xalxis Zalis~ mier axali kanonis inicirebis da damtkicebis SemTxvevaSi ki ivaniSvili Seecdeba arasamTavrobo organizaciaTa Tu samoqalaqo seqtoris absolutur umravlesobaze represiebis ganxorcielebas da maT ucxo qveynis agentebad gamocxadebas. mosaxleoba mZime ekonomikuri mdgomareobis winaSea, gaZvirebulia medikamentebi, sursaT-sanovage, momsaxurebis sfero, sawvavi da sxva, rac sagrZnoblad arTulebs qveyanaSi arsebobis SesaZleblobas. swored amitom vdgavarT istoriuli migraciis safrTxis winaSe, rac imTaviTve did problemadaa qceuli. maSasadame, politikur-socialuri foni, romelic dRes sufevs Cvens qveyanaSi, migvaTrevs Waobisken da aavadebs sruliad ers. Tu ar moxda swrafi gardamtexi Zvrebi, saerTo konsolidacia da marTvis sadaveebidan rusuli reJimis CamoSoreba, SeveCexebiT gaasmagebul problemebs, rac sabolood daasvams daRs am qveynis momavlis perspeqtivas.
– mmarTvel partiasTan raime sakiTxebze Tu TanamSromlobT mosaxleobis sakeTildReod?
– qobuleTis municipalitetis sakrebulos fraqcia `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ gadavida sakrebulos boikotis reJimSi! ar vapirebT, kabinetebidan vuyuroT Cveni qveynis momavlis ngrevas, prezidentis sikvdiliT dasjas da vapirebT bolomde brZolas reJimis winaaRmdeg. mosaxleobis sakeTildReod araerTi SeniSvna Tu iniciativa wargvidgenia sakrebulosTvis biujetis ganxilvis dros, maTi mxridan ki umravlesoba maTgani daibloka im martivi mizezis gamo, rom Cven warmovadgenT opozicias. adgilobrivi aRmasrulebeli xelisufleba dakavebulia fulis gaTeTrebiT, biznesmenebze wilebSi CajdomiTa da egreT wodebuli atkatebiT, rac `qarTuli ocnebisgan~ TiTqmis aravis ukvirs.