,,ცივილიზებულმა მსოფლიომ განაჩენი გამოუტანა რუსეთის პრეზიდენტს”
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erT welze metia, damangrevel oms, sikvdilis kalos vuyurebT ukrainaSi – iavarqmnili qalaqebi, aTiaTasobiT daxocili, asiaTasobiT daWrili, milionobiT ltolvili swored imas cxadyofs, rom ruseTis mTavari amocanaa ukrainis rogorc saxelmwifos gaqroba. ukrainelTa Tavganwirva da dasavleTis mkafio mxardaWera rom ara, kremli Tavis mizans miaRwevda. demokratiuli samyaro gmobs kremlis destruqciul qmedebebs da ukrainas saxelmwifoebriobis SenarCunebaSi exmareba. es ara mxolod samarTlianobis gamoxatva, aramed geopolitikuri da geoekonomikuri faqtorebis Sedegicaa. ukrainis viTarebaze didadaa damokidebuli evropis da miT umetes, postsabWoTa qveynebis momavali. am da sxva aqtualur sakiTxebze gvesaubreba bsu-is iuridiul da socialur mecnierebaTa fakultetis dekani, saerTaSoriso samarTlis specialisti levan jayeli.
– erT welze metia ukrainaSi farTomasStabiani omi mimdinareobs, ra gacxadda?
– diax, es omi srulmasStabiania. omis erTi wlis ganmavlobaSi ruseTma militaristuli saxelmwifos saxe aCvena. misi saerTaSoriso politika mTlianad efuZneba samxedro arsenals da aranair diplomatias. isic gacxadda, rom ruseTTan saubari SesaZlebelia mxolod samxedro ZaliT, swored samxedro velze unda daumtkicdes mas, rom unda daixios ukan. ar SeiZleba, ruseTma civi omi ganaaxlos im saxiT, rogoric hqonda sabWoTa kavSirs dasavleTTan.
– omis ra fazaa axla ukrainaSi?
– es aris saSualo faza. ukrainis bevr gulSematkivars minda Tvali avuxilo da vuTxara, ruseTis damarcxeba arc ise iolia. am qveyanas aqvs gamocdileba, omis pirobebSi rogor icxovros, rogor gadaitanos SimSili, sicive, mravaltanjuli qveynaa ara msoflio politikis gamo, aramed sakuTari xelisuflebebisgan. maT istoriulad swamT sakuTari xelisuflebis, amitom ar unda gagvikvirdes, rom brmad sjeraT mmarTvelebis, rom TiTqos ruseTi rwmenisTvis ibrZvis, ise, rogorc faSisturi germaniis winaaRmdeg. samwuxarod, kremlma masmediis meoxebiT daarwmuna mosaxleoba, rom dRemde faSizms ebrZvian ukrainaSi. masmedia mTlianad kontrolirebadia, Sesabamisad, obieqturi informacia blokirebulia da arcerT moqalaqemde ar midis swori informacia.
– rogorc cnobilia, ruseTi sam dReSi apirebda kievis aRebas, magram axla ZiriTadi brZolebi doneckis regionSi mimdinareobs, es risi maniSnebelia?
– Tavis droze msoflio Tanamegobroba rom damdgariyo Tavis simaRleze, anu ar Segueboda ruseTis agresias saqarTvelosadmi da yirimis aneqsias, ukrainis precedenti ar moxdeboda. ruseTi roca moZlierda, dasavleTi maSin mixvda, rom ukraina ukanaskneli dacvis xazia, romlis iqiT iwyeba evropa, amitom es Tanadgoma gacilebiT ufro adre unda gamoexata. Tu ruseTi ukrainis bariers gadalaxavs, mas raRa gaaCerebs? vin gaaCerebs?! ukrainaSi ruseTis mxridan natos SesaZleblobebis dazverva mimdinareobs, anu surs gaigos, ra SesaZleblobebi aqvs natos samxedro, adamianuri resursis TvalsazrisiT. Tuki moskovs Tavisi ganzraxva gauvidoda ukrainaSi, mxolod ramdenime weliwadi dasWirdeboda sabWoTa kavSiris droindeli gavlenebis msoflioSi aRsadgenad.
– cxadia, ruseTis prezidenti sabWoTa kavSiris aRdgenaze didi xania ocnebobs. . .
– diax, putins araerTxel sajarod ganucxadebia, rom sabWoTa kavSiris daSla didi geopolitikuri katastrofa iyo. is aseT `idealebze~ uars ar ambobs. daukvirdiT, postsabWoTa mosaxleoba rogoraa orad dayofili, 30 wlis ganmavlobaSi ver moxerxda, garda baltiispireTis qveynebisa, postsabWoTa qveynebSi mentaluri maxasiaTeblebis gardatexa da dRemde saorWofoa – evropul Tu rusul gzas irCeven es saxelmwifoebi. sazogadoebaSi mxolod zedapiruli rwmenis safuZvelze akeTeben gancxadebas, rom evropuli mimarTulebisaa, xolo realobis, gamowvevis winaSe roca aRmoCndebian, ukan ixeven. mentalur cvlilebas gacilebiT meti Zalisxmeva sWirdeba, kerZod, ganaTleba, cnobierebis amaRleba da sxva. . .
– analitikosTa nawili acxadebs, rom dasavleTis mizani ruseTis gamofitvaa am omSi – misi gaxangrZliveba ramdenime wliT, rogoria Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb?
– eqspertebs aqvT amgvari gancxadebebis ufleba, magram oficialuri, sajaro Tanamdebobis pirebi amas ver ityvian imitom, rom es aris saerTaSoriso danaSauli. ukraineli xalxis xarjze unda gamofiton ruseTis militaristuli saxelmwifo? anu genocids uwyob oficialurad xels? vfiqrob, rom aseTi gancxadebebi Zalian saSiSia, Tumca ar gamovricxav, rom es simarTle iyos, SeiZleba romeliRac saxelmwifoebis genStabis an specsamsaxurebis magidaze idos es gegma. rasakvirvelia, amis safuZvelic arsebobs, magram erTi ram cxadia: ruseTma dRis wesrigSi daayena sakiTxi misi demilitarizaciis Sesaxeb imitom, rom is saSiSi qveyanaa da ar eqvemdebareba racionalur axsnas misi qmedebebi. ratom ar ismeba aseTi kiTxvebi iseTive didi saxelmwifoebisadmi, rogorebicaa germania, didi britaneTi, safrangeTi? imitom, rom isini arian demokratiuli, civiluri saxelmwifoebi, ruseTi ki antidemokratiuli, imperialisturi saxelmwifoa, rasac ukve mTeli msoflio acnobierebs.
– ukrainisadmi dasavleTis Tanadgoma ramdenad mniSvnelovania saboloo gamarjvebis TvalsazrisiT da am mimarTebiT romeli saxelmwifoebi dominireben?
– kargi kiTxvaa. ukve sabolood, sasworze Sedga sakiTxi, rubikoni gadalaxulia, – axla an gaimarjvebs ruseTi da am gamarjvebis Sedegs moimkis msoflio, aSS-s mouwevs ruseTTan SeTanxmeba, anda gaimarjvebs ukraina da vfiqrob, msoflio marTlwesrigis arsebiT gadawyobamde miva. yvela SemTxvevaSi unda vivaraudoT, rom gamarjvebuli mxare Tavis wesebs, principebs da pirobebs SesTavazebs meore mxares. diax, didi britaneTi, aSS mkveTrad exmarebian ukrainas. ratom? imitom, rom isini acnobiereben Sedegebs. didi mniSvneloba aqvs imas, vis ra molodinebi aqvs omis Semdgom msoflio wesrigze. yvelaze didi ekonomikuri da politikuri molodinebi aSS-s da did britaneTs aqvT. germanias SedarebiT neitraluri pozicia Camouyalibda, gansakuTrebiT angela merkelis mmarTvelobis periodSi, maSin germania saimigracio politikiT dakavda imis nacvlad, rom sagareo politikaze gaekeTebina aqcenti. rogorc cnobilia, maT orjer ganicades kraxi saerTaSoriso politikaSi da aRar surT mesamejer igives gameoreba, Tumca bolo dros germania aqtiurad uWers mxars ukrainas.
– eqspertTa nawili da aseve, kanadis SeiaraRebuli Zalebis yofili sardali, fiqrobs, rom SesaZloa putini moiSoron, Tqveni azriT, rogor ganviTardeba movlenebi?
– prognozireba Zalian rTulia, radgan Cven ar varT ruseTSi, ar vurTierTobT ruseTis mosaxleobasTan da ar viciT revoluciuri ganwyobebis momwifebis xarisxi. miT ufro ar viciT putinis garemocvaSi arsebuli ganwyoba. putini sajaro adgilebs erideba, bunkerebSi imaleba, radgan misi sicocxlis xelyofis Sansebi izrdeba, miT umetes haagis sasamarTlos amaswinandeli gadawyvetilebis fonze.
– haagis sasamarTlos am nabijs – putinis dapatimrebis orderis gacemas rogor SeafasebT?
– ra Tqma unda es istoriuli, uprecedento gadawyvetilebaa istoriuli samarTlianobis aRsadgenad. praqtikulad putini izolaciaSi moaqcies, Tumca isic unda iTqvas, rom ruseTi ar aris romis statutis xelmomweri qveyana, anu masze ar vrceldeba haagis sasamarTlos gadawyvetileba, magram udavoa, rom civilizebulma msofliom praqtikulad, ganaCeni gamoutana ruseTis prezidents. rogorc saerTaSoriso samarTlis specialists, TqvenTan interviuSi araerTxel miTqvams, rom droTa ganmavlobaSi ruseTis samxedro da politikuri elitis pasuxismgebloba dadgeboda dRis wesrigSi. samwuxarod, saerTaSoriso samarTlis mixedviT pasuxgebis ar eSiniaT, sanqciebs SeeCvivnen ara marto xelisufleba, aramed mosaxleobac. maT sanqciebiT ver SeaCereben, radgan mxolod samxedro ena esmiT da maTi armia samxedro velze rom damarcxdeba, mxolod amis Semdeg daixeven ukan.
– dawesebul sanqciebs aqvs is Sedegi, rasac dasavleTi eloda?
– nawilobriv miaRwia imitom, rom umalve gamoikveTa saxelmwifoebi, biznesmenebi, visac awyobT es daZabuli garemo -SezRudvebi, raTa am SezRudvebis gverdis avliT moaxdinon ruseTis ekonomikis gamokveba – omis dros yovelTvis didi fuli keTdeba. saerTod, zRvaSi romeli gemebi naosnoben, ra saidumlo tvirTi miaqvT, rTulia Tqma. Zalian bevri susti wertilia rukaze. miT umetes, rom bevri saxelmwifo ar erideba xmamaRla imis Tqmas, rom ruseTTan TanamSromloben. es aris indoeTi, irani, CrdiloeT korea. . . mokled, dasavleTma am sanqciebze uari ar unda Tqvas.
– vxedavT, rom mTeli msoflio exmareba ukrainas, am fonze CineTis da iranis pozicia rogoria?
– vfiqrob, maT awyobT am omis gaxangrZliveba, droSi gawelva. pirveli – isini ukve eqskluziurad, Semcirebuli fasebiT maragdebian ruseTisgan, anu maTTvis ruseTis dauZlurebuli ekonomika misaRebia. . .
– `natom axlave unda daiwyos mzadeba imisTvis, rogor imoqmedos, roca ruseTis federacia daiSleba~, – es azri frangma generalma, evropaSi natos Zalebis meTauris yofilma moadgile miSel iakovlefma gamoTqva, ras fiqrobT amaze?
– Tuki omi gagrZelda da ruseTis federaciis subieqtebi darwmundnen, rom kremls aRar ZaluZs Sida wesrigis uzrunvelyofa, logikuria ruseTis daSla. es qveyana raze dgas? – SeiaraRebul Zalebze. Tuki CrdiloeT kavkasia, baSkireTi, TaTreTi, iqiT kuriliis kunZulebis, aqeT fineTis mosazRvre teritoriis mkvidrni darwmundebian ruseTis sisusteSi, ar aris gamoricxuli ruseTis daSla. ratom ar rTavs kremli Tavis samxedro potencials bolomde omSi? imitom, rom qveynis Sinagani wesrigi uzrunvelyos, sazRvari xom unda daicvas? Cemi azriT, Tu kremli ramdenime TveSi ver gadalaxavs ukrainis winaaRmdegobas, daiwyebs am qveynidan gamosvlaze fiqrs. amas Cven ramdenime xanSi aucileblad davinaxavT.
– samxedro eqspertebi varaudoben, rom aprilSi ukrainuli armia kontrSetevaze gadava, ramdenad mosalodnelia 2023 wels okupirebuli teritoriebis deokupacia?
– es gardauvalia imitom, rom dRes ukraina poziciebis SenarCunebas axerxebs im mizniT, rom axali SeiaraRebis, resursebis, gadamzadebis akumulacia moaxdinos. vfiqrob, erTi Tve sWirdeba rom strategiulad da taqtikurad gadaalagos Zalebi da erT mSvenier dRes, savaraudod uaxloes periodSi kontrSeteva daiwyeba.
– cnobilia, rom yvela omis dasrulebis Semdeg xdeba msoflios axali wesrigis formireba, am mxriv movlenebis rogor ganviTarebas elodebiT?
– yvela SemTxvevaSi mosalodnelia msoflios axali gadanawileba, Tu ruseTi gaimarjvebs an damarcxdeba, cxadia, daiwyeba axal SeTanxmebaze fiqri. saqme imaSia, rom gaero azrs kargavs, radgan ver Caabara gamocda, ver uzrunvelyo mSvidoba, misi mTavari mizani xom swored mSvidobisa da usafrTxoebis uzrunvelyofaa.
– am axal msoflio wesrigSi kievis momavali rogori iqneba?
– Sedegebis mixedviT iqneba gansazRvruli ukrainis momavali axal msoflio wesrigSi. Tuki ukrainam gaimarjva, kievi gaxdeba sivrce, sadac evropa ganaxorcielebs evropul Rirebulebebs da ruseTi samudamod dakargavs masze politikur gavlenas. ruseTis gaqroba aravis awyobs, piriqiT, surT ruseTi iyos civilizebuli, demokratiul sawyisebze orientirebuli saxelmwifo.
– dabolos, wydeba Tu ara ukrainaSi evropis da miT umetes, postsabWoTa qveynebis momavali?
– erTmniSvnelovnad wydeba da aq araviTar SemTxvevaSi ar SeiZleba danebeba, ukrainelebma es omi bolomde unda miiyvanon. ar unda wavidnen molaparakebebze, teritoriebis daTmobaze, xolo Tu partniorebi ar daexmarebian, maSin zavi sjobs mTeli qveynis dangrevas, magram vimeoreb, Tu brZolis misxali Sansi gagaCnia, maSin ruseTis agresia unda daZlio da miaRwio zavs dasavleTis da, upirvelesad, ukrainis pirobiT. am SemTxvevaSi Cvenc gavimarjvebT, Cvenc CaverTvebiT molaparakebebSi, sadac Cveni interesebi iqneba gaTvaliswinebuli. dasavleTma araviTar SemTxvevaSi ar unda dauSvas ruseTis gaZliereba.