,,სიყვარული უსასრულობის ყველაზე ღვთაებრივი ფორმაა”
äïøï õëèåîòêò 593 50 82 69 –
warmatebuli, saintereso da sayuradRebo mwerali – ase Seafases kolegebma eTer zaqariaZe SarSan, TbilisSi, mweralTa kavSirSi misi wignis prezentaciaze. qalbatoni eTeri aTeuli welia emigraciaSia, ar epueba siZneleebs da Tavisufal dros axal nawarmoebebs qmnis. . . emigrantis cxovrebiseuli gamocdileba ufro sainteresod warmoaCens am znekeTil qalbatons, saTqmelic dagrovebia da CvenTan gulaxdil dialogSi axla Tavis naazrevs gviziarebs. nomris stumaria mwerali eTer zaqariaZe.
– 10 welze metia, emigraciaSi xarT. . . ra aris TqvenTvis es aTi weli – rogor aRiqvamT maT?
– 2001 wels davtove saqarTvelo da Sveicariis ulamazes qalaq ciurixSi kari gavuRe emigrantul cxovrebas. . . (2008 wels, mcire droiT, davbrundi saqarTveloSi). iyo emigranti, mZime tvirTia. rTulia, sadRac, sxva polusze daimkvidro adgili, monatreba da siSoris susxi, gafrenili wlebi, axalgazrdoba. . . fiqri: rogor SemZlebia datoveba sakuTari sulis da gulis. . . monatreba damangreveli gancdaa da grZnob, rom emigrantis patroni mxolod RmerTia. yvelaze metad im sicarieles ganvicdi, rac dedasa da Svilebs Soris, miuxedavad yoveldRiuri kontaqtisa, siSoris gamo Cndeba.
– arCevanis winaSe rom dagayenon, axla ra gzas airCevdiT?
– arCevanis winaSe xSirad vdgebi, miwevs imis arCeva, rac ar msurs an ar momwons, radgan sxva gza ar arsebobs. es arasasurveli gamosavalia. adamiani Zlieria, sicocxlis ganmavlobaSi xvdeba uamravi sirTule, problema Tu tkivili, miuxedavad amisa, mainc madlobeli unda viyoT, radgan tkivilis ukan patara naTeli wertili imaleba. TiToeuli CvenganisaTvis aucilebelia RvTis boZebuli sibrZne da goniereba, raTa SevZloT, davinaxoT sakuTari Tavi da samyaro iseTi, rogoric is sinamdvileSia, davinaxoT risi daTmoba aris SesaZlebeli da is, rac unda davicvaT mtkiced. upirvelesad, Cveni adgili unda vnaxoT cxovrebaSi. dRes, marTalia, cocxlebi varT, magram ar vuwyiT, ra gvelis xval. RmerTi Cvengan elodeba Cveni daniSnulebis aRsrulebas. yovel epoqas Tavis Sexeduleba aqvs, adamians xan aamaRlebs, xan daamdablebs, droni icvlebian da Cvenc vicvlebiT masTan erTad, magram umTavresi – xateba RvTisa ucvleli rCeba CvenSi. vici, rom arasdros unda davnebde, unda vimoqmedo aqtiurad, nebismier fasad viaro win da mivide daniSnul adgilamde, romelsac uamravi sirTule xvdeba gzad. Tumca, am Tavbrudamxvevi da winaaRmdegobebiT aRsavse Tavgadasavlis bolos, vfiqrob, rom brZola yovelTvis Rirs. arCevanis winaSe mdgari, isev da isev im gasavlel gzas davadgebodi, romelic gamivlia, radgan vxvdebi, rom cxovrebaa CvenTvis mefe, TiToeuli adamiani ki misi ubralo paikebi varT!
– gamocdilebas, romelic dagigrovdaT, uziarebT maT, visac sWirdeba rCeva?
– diax. codnis erTaderTi wyaro gamocdilebaa, sxvebisTvis gaziareba ki aranakleb mniSvnelovans mmatebs, Zala xom erTobaSia?!. . megobrebi imisTvis arseboben, rom erTmaneTis gasaWiri gaiziaron, Tumca, sul cudze yuradRebis gamaxvilebiT SeiZleba, maT emociur ganwyobazec uaryofiTad vimoqmedo, Tanac megobrebs Cemi kargi ambebis gageba axarebT. didi mniSvneloba aqvs megobrebs Cems cxovrebaSi da am jildos gavufrTxildebi. mTavaria, maT emociebis gaziarebis saSualeba mivce da SesaZloa, procesSi gamosavals TviTonve miakvlion. . .
– emigrantis erTi dRe, Tqveni da sxvisic. . . saerTod, maqauri cxovrebis wesi, ris danergvas isurvebdiT samSobloSi?
– emigrantis yoveli dRe erTnairia, sxvisi tkivili emateba Cems tkivils, rogorc unda Seecado, ver Secvli gonebis fanjaras, saidanac ucxo miwaze, ucxo samyaros uyureb da sxvisi haeri gaxrCobs. . . es aris, usasrulobac da erTi dRec. qarTvelebs tkiviliani istoria gvaqvs. saqarTvelo Cemi qolgaa da mis qveS mezobel qveynebTan megobrul, Zmur urTierTobas davnergavdi, siyvarulis xeebs davrgavdi, RmerTis boZebul miwaze naTxovar sicocxles Sevirgebdi, mSvidobas davnergavdi! Sveicaria cnobilia, rogorc mravalerovani qveyana. aq saubroben oTx – frangul, germanul, romanulsa da italiur enebze. aq zizRi da mtroba ar SeiniSneba, yvela cxovrobs simSvidesa da siyvarulSi, yvela sakuTar saqmes akeTebs. am qveyanas SeuZlia daikvexos cxovrebis kargi standartiT, xarisxiani ganaTlebiT, jandacvis saukeTeso saSualebebiTa da mSvidi garemoTi.
– buneba mkurnalia. . . es azri Sveicariis bunebis xilvis Semdeg, albaT, ufro sarwmunoa.
– Sveicaria ulamazesi qveyanaa saocari bunebiT – ulamazesi mTebiT, tbebiT, mdinareebiT. am lamaz bunebas erwymis saocari arqiteqtura. namdvilad zRapruli qveyanaa, sufTa haeri, ankara wyali, mzis sxivebi, yvavilebis aromati, msubuqi sio, dilis nami, frinvelTa galoba da mobibine balaxi – es is Zafebia, romelic adamians bunebasTan, gare samyarosTan akavSirebs. yovelive amis gareSe SeuZlebelia axali energiiT avseba, rac kargad esmis Sveicariis mosaxleobas. bavSvebs uyvarT bunebasTan urTierToba, ician, rom xec cocxalia da sunTqavs, bunebasac sWirdeba zrunva da mofrTxileba. ufrosebs ki kargad esmiT, rom jansaRi garemo yvelaze kargi memkvidreobaa, rac ki SeiZleba gadasce momaval Taobas.
– `silamaze gadaarCens kacobriobas~ – am frTian frazas rogor ganavrcobdiT?
– siyvaruli mSveniers eZebs. siyvarulis grZnoba silamazis cnebisagan ganuyofelia. qristianoba ganacxadebda adamianis sulis, rogorc RvTis xatebisa da msgavsebis ukvdav silamazes. RvTisken mimavali qristianis suli RvTiuri naTelis anarekls yovel adamianSi xedavda. Tavganwirva usiyvarulod SeuZlebelia. samwuxarod, adamianebma davkargeT ra mistikuri grZnoba rogorc unari adamianSi RvTaebrivi silamazis Wvretisa, ararsebuli silamazis Zebnas SevudeqiT ama sofelSi. . . qristianoba siyvarulis religiaa, romelic Tavganwirvazea dafuZnebuli, man ixsna adamiani yvelaze saSineli monobisagan, axla ki nebayoflobiT davemoneT yvelaze cud batons – codvasa da demons. sulier silamazesTan erTad, adamianebma siyvarulis niWic davkargeT, monoba moviwoneT da miviReT kidec. diax! Zvelma berZnebma Tqves, rom silamaze gadaarCens samyaros. umaRlesi silamaze RmerTia, misi anareklia xati RvTisa – adamiani. samwuxarod, silamazesTan erTad gaqra siyvaruli da dadga metafizikuri Rame.
– adamians Tu swams, mTasac gadadgamso. . .
– rwmena uxilavis dajerebaa, es isaa, rasac xeliT ver Seexebi, magram cxovrebis warmarTva SeuZlia. RmerTis rwmena mTlianad cvlis adamianis msoflmxedvelobas samyaroze. rwmena `mjeraze~ metia, imaze meti, vidre, ubralod, icode, rom RmerTi arsebobs. es imedia, rom uflis sityva uzenaesia da misi aRsruleba – gardauvali, es moqmedebaa da zogjer lodinic, es mindobaa, asi procentiT mindoba RmerTze. gwamdes RmerTis da gjerodes, rom rwmeniT mTebis daZvrac SesaZlebelia!
– rasac fiqrobT, imas laparakobT? gulaxdili dialogis gjeraT?
– yovelTvis ver vityvi, rac vici, is ki yovelTvis vici, ras vambob. yovelTvis samyaros SigniT vmoqmedeb, saeWvo eniT arasdros vlaparakob, arc vboWav sakuTar Tavs azrovnebasa da sityvis TavisuflebaSi. yvelaferze sakuTari azri maqvs, romelsac Tamamad vucxadeb garSemomyofebs, Tumca sanam rames vityode, yovelTvis vfiqrob saTqmelze, radgan yovelgvari azrebis da grZnobebis miRma realoba arsebobs. gulwrfeli var partniorTan, romelic Seesabameba yvela Cemi warmodgenis idealebs. sakuTar Tavs mebrZolad ar vTvli, magram sinamdvileSi vibrZvi imisTvis, rac msurs da miyvars. gulaxdili saubari – gulis siwminde, erT-erTi umTavresi saTnoebaa, wminda guls SeuZlia uflis xilva da gonebas vicav yovelgvari avi fiqrisagan. roca vcdilob, gonebaSi Semosuli yoveli macduri azri, gulisTqma da survili moviSoro, maSin goneba daculia da cudi azri gulamde ver aRwevs, msgavs midgomas dialogSi namdvilad aqvs Tavisi dadebiTi mxare.
– cremlebi – sulis wuxilis niSani da sevdis amofrqveva Tu. . . Tqven rodis tiriT?
– cremlis gamomwvevi mizezi mravalgvaria, cremli sulis sakvebia, locvaa. Tuki ver viReb imas, rac msurs, vitanjebi; Tu viReb imas, rac ar msurs, mainc vitanjebi; Tu viReb imas, rac msurs, maSinac vitanjebi, radgan ver vaxerxeb SevinarCuno, rac miviRe. goneba damabrkolebelia, mas surs, cvlilebebisagan Tavisufali iyos; mas surs Tavisufali iyos tkivilisagan, cxovrebiseuli valdebulebebisa da sikvdilisagan. magram cvlileba aris cxovrebis kanonzomiereba da veraviTari Tavis moCvenebiToba ver Secvlis am realobas. es cxovrebaa da cxovrebaSi ki simSvide da sixaruli cremlisa da sinanulis gareSe ar arsebobs. cremli iyo da aris Cemi srulyofili megobari. mec bevrjer mitiria – sakuTari Tavis SebralebiT. cremli suls miTavisuflebs, arRvevs gaqvavebuli gulis javSans da araCveulebrivi Tavisuflebis SegrZnebas maniWebs, zogjer vcdilob `zebunebrivi~ vuwodo imas, rac bunebrivia. Tumca, iSviaTad, magram cremlis gareSec mitiria. . . vfiqrob, es ar aris simdablis niSani, cxovreba gulSi bevr WuWys gvigrovebs, gulis gawmendis gareSe RmerTTan misvlas ver SevZleb. vinc siZneleebs WirTaTmeniT gaivlis, maTTvis bolo nugeSi is iqneba, rom `moswmends maT RmerTi TvalTagan yvela cremls~.
– bevri wuxs, Svilebs ras vutovebo. . . da mainc ra aris is mTavari, Svilebs rom unda davutovoT?
– gerqvas deda! pasuxismgebloba Svilebze didia. sikeTe Tu boroteba – orTave gadamdebia, genetika imaxsovrebs urTierTobebs, damokidebulebebs. . . winaprebi ayalibeben Svilis genetikas, Svili – agrZelebs. Cvenzea damokidebuli, rogor warvmarTavT. erTmaneTis xmas unda movusminoT da davfiqrdeT, ras ver vereviT Cvens TavSi – Surs, gaumaZRrobas, borot vnebebs. . . unda gadavabijoT sakuTar ambiciebs. rodesac keTili var, Svilebs martiv gzas vaZlev. yvela sikvdilis Svilebi varT, amitomac bevrs vfiqrob sikvdilze da imaze, ras davutoveb Svilebs. . . gavbrwyindebiT ki odesme, martooden RvTismSoblis imedze, xel da Tavgautokeblad? panTeonis saflavebi Cvenze gacilebiT moqmedni arian – sulis sazrdo aqvT datovebuli STamomavlobisTvis da imitom. Svilebs rCebaT is, rasac davTes am wuTisofelSi, rac Tan wamyveba am wuTisoflidan.
– grZnoba, romelic adamians akeTilSobilebs da aZlierebs. . .
– siyvaruli ubralo sityvaa, vidre iseTi adamiani ar gamoCndeba cxovrebaSi, romelic mas mniSvnelobas miscems. es grZnoba akeTilSobilebs adamians, igi gvaZlevs saSualebas, davinaxoT, risi danaxvac bevrs ar SeuZlia. namdvili siyvaruli yvela amqveyniur faseulobaze maRla dgas da igi eZiebs silamazes siyvarulSi da ara siyvaruls – silamazeSi. saocaria sulis haerovneba da misi mofarfate simsubuqe, romlis TrTolvasac adamiani yvelaze ufro siyvarulisas grZnobs. es, albaT, samoTxiseuli atmosferos gancdaa dedamiwaze. mimaCnia, rom siyvaruli usasrulobis yvelaze RvTaebrivi formaa.
– roca iRviZebT, pirveli grZnoba – romelic geuflebaT?
– yovelTvis minda axali dRe daviwyo saintereso, sasiamovno gziT. mze an wvima, sicxe an yinva, qari an simSvide – nebismieri dila yovelTvis kargi unda iyos. miuxedavad cudi amindisa, Tu cudi ganwyobisa, minda gavuRimo axal dRes. `dasabamidan iyo sityva. . . yvelaferi mis mier Seiqmna da umisod araferi Seqmnila, rac ki Seiqmna~. dila, mze fardas arRvevs da me kmayofilebis grZnobiT vCurCuleb: dila mSvidobisa momeci RmerTo!
– roca bunebam qaloba garguna. . . qalis xvedri da roli Cvens realobaSi. . . SeadareT qarTveli da Tundac maqauri qalebi, sadac axla Tqven cxovrobT.
– `qalebad ki ar ibadebian, qalebad xdebian~. egzistenciuri filosofiisTvis yofierebis erTaderTi realoba qalia, romelmac Tavisi samyaro Tavadve unda aavsos SinaarsiT. Tavisufali neba da Tavisuflebisaken swrafva sazogadoebriv kanonebze Zlieria. genderul rolebze Cvens realobaSi sazogadoebis warmodgena aseTia – qalis funqciaa Svilebis movla da aRzrda, saSinao saqmeebis keTeba. qali maSin xar da maSin fasdebi, rodesac arc meuRle gyavs ukmayofilo da arc stumari, yvelafers aswreb, yvelafers uZRvebi. namdvilad Zlieria qarTveli qali, Zlieri dedobrivi instinqtiT gamoirCeva da sakuTar Svilebze zrunva misTvis mTavari prioritetia cxovrebaSi. qarTvelma qalma isic icis, rom qmari viRacasTan midis, magram imasac ambobs, ojaxi rogor davangrio, Svilebs deda da mama undao! tradicia moiTxovs, nebismier fasad SeinarCunos ojaxi. aq ki, genderuli Tanasworoba, upirveles yovlisa, adamianis uflebaa. qalebs ufleba aqvT icxovron Rirseulad, siRaribisa da SiSis gareSe. qalebi xels uwyoben ojaxebis keTildReobas da produqtiulobas, Semdegi Taobis samomavlo perspeqtivebis gaumjobesebas. sakuTar Tavs maqsimalurad aqceven yuradRebas, varjiSoben, yvelas movlili sxeuli da lamazi gamoxedva aqvs. Zalian zrdilobiani da megobrulebi arian, magram ar unda gaaRizianoT.
– iumorTan Tqveni damokidebuleba. . .
– iumori cxovrebas xalissa da silaRes matebs. sicili aris sxeulis ena, romelic zogjer rTulia tirilisagan ganasxvavo, gaaCnia adamians. CemTvis iumori aris sityvieri amoxeTqva. bevri ar epueba simarTlis Tqmas da iumors iyenebs. is ki, vinc icinis, SeuZlebelia ikbinebodes. gaiRimeT Zvirfasebo, gaiRimeT!
– Tqveni Semoqmedebis ambebic gagvacaniT, ras unda elodos mkiTxveli samomavlod?
– ramdenadac didi niWis patronia adamiani, miT ufro mWidrod aris igi dakavSirebuli cxovrebasTan, mis mwvave sakiTxebTan. Cven monani varT cxovrebis pirobebisa, uZlurni varT mis winaSe. ar arsebobs Tavisufali Cveni neba, yoveli ubedurebaa Cvens Tavs: usamarTloba, uzneoba, siRaribe. . . siymawvilis STabeWdilebani ukvdavia CemSi, saTave da sawyisic swored iq aris. pirvelad patara ylorti amova da Tu araferma SeuSala xeli, TandaTan zrdas iwyebs da did xed gaizrdeba. ase iwyeba fesvebis zrda, roca pirvelad weris niWi gaiRviZebs cxovrebis, bunebis STabeWdilebaTa wyalobiT. mcirea Cemi Semoqmedeba, mTavari ki CemSi is aris, rasac Tavad vgrZnob da vfiqrob, imas vwer. Cemi sicili namdvili, bunebrivi, marTali sicilia, tirili namdvili cremlia da ara raRac wyalwyala siTxe. nawarmoebSi Tu leqsSi vqsov mxolod WeSmaritebas. Cemi gonieri da niWieri mkiTxvelisaTvis mzad maqvs ortomeuli stambisTvis gadasacemad, `fuli, vneba Tu siyvaruli~. darwmunebuli var, vinc wigns waikiTxavs. . . roca ukanaskneli wami Camohkravs da samareSi CamiSveben, Cangi Tan locva-kurTxevas Camayolebs da ara samduravs.
– Zlieri qalbatoni – ase gaxasiaTeben. ra aris Tqveni pirovnuli siZlieris wyaro?
– Zalian rTulia sakuTari naklis danaxva, gansakuTrebiT gverdidan, magram mTavari isaa, rom Zlier qals axasiaTebs erTguleba Zlier siyvarulTan. Zlieri qali yvelanairad mxarSi udgas rCeul mamakacs, exmareba da mxardaWeras ucxadebs nebismier sakiTxSi, swored am niSan-Tvisebebis gamo, bevr mamakacs uWirs Zlier qalTan urTierTobis awyoba, Tumca ar SegeSindeT, is Tavad gauSvebs, ramdenadac mtkivneuli unda iyos es misTvis, radgan Zlierma qalma yovelTvis icis sakuTari Tavis fasi. bevri sirTulis gadalaxva momiwia cxovrebis gzaze, ramac realurad maqcia Zlier pirovnebad, ver veguebi susti nebisyofis, meryev da wuwuna mamakacebs, ar miyvars da arasodes daviwyeb adamianis grZnobebiT TamaSs. yvelaze cudi, rac SeiZleba mamakacma gaakeTos, es aris Cemi Zalis dasustebis mcdeloba, rasac namdvilad ver vpatiob. araferSi mWirdeba sustebisaTvis damaxasiaTebeli TamaSi da rolis morgeba. Cems samyaroSi saidumloeba naklebad aris, ar maSinebs warsuli, mudmivad imis ZiebaSi var, `Tu ram gaxada adamiani iseTi~, rogoric axla aris. kargad vici sakuTari survilebi da aseve, kargad mesmis maTi realizaciis SesaZleblobebi ramdenad maqvs. ar maviwydeba ganvlili gza, Tu ris fasad damijda sasurvelis miRweva. CemTvis damaxasiaTebelia urTierTobis simyare, ar maxasiaTebs morCileba, Tu miyvars, mTeli guliT miyvars, magram vinarCuneb damoukideblobas, ar maxasiaTebs msxverplis poziciaSi dgoma. dafiqrebulxarT odesme, ratom momravlda sevdiani da siyvaruls mowyurebuli Tvalebi, saswaulebis momlodine qalebis gulebi?. . . aRiarebis devnaSi mTavari daaviwydaT – qalis Zala mis sisusteSia!
– wigni, romelic gamorCeulad giyvarT da ratom?
– wignis roli Cems cxovrebaSi didia. wignma maswavla erovnuli suliskveTeba, kultura, gmiroba. rac metjer wavikiTxe, miT meti vipove masSi, yovelTvis raRac axals aRmovaCen. axali wignis wakiTxva erTi wingadadgmuli nabijia codnisken. iyo dro, rodesac wigni sazogadoebrivi cxovrebis umniSvnelovanesi elementi iyo. iyo dro, rodesac yoveli axali wignis gamosvla dResaswauli gaxldaT, mere ki. . . mere wignisadmi interesi ganelda sazogadoebaSi. wigni Zalian kargi megobaria, romelic mexmareba sakuTari Tavis SecnobaSi, gazrdaSi, daxvewaSi. . . Zalian bevri wigni maqvs wakiTxuli, miyvars kiTxva. bolos wakiTxuli wignebidan Cemze yvelaze didi STabeWdileba guram doCanaSvilis `samoselma pirvelma~ moaxdina. rTulia gadmocema, ramdenad madlobeli var am wignis. es nawarmoebi gaswavlis cxovrebas da gaCvenebs siyvarulis Zalas. dedamiwas xom siyvaruli atrialebs. dRes Cems magidas amSvenebs Cemi pirveli wigni `ekliani siyvaruli~, romelic yvelaze metad miyvars, frTaSesxmuli ocneba. es wigni sawyisia imisa, sadac Cemi cxovrebis yvelaze namdvili samyaro Sendeba da igi am samyaros pirveli feradi aguria.
– `gaxsovdes sikvdili~ – vemzadoT sikvdilisaTvis, – am formulirebas rogor aRiqvamT?
– yvela adamians gviwevs sikvdilze dafiqreba da misi gacnobiereba raRac doneze mainc. saboloo Sedegi aris adamianis mier sikvdilis miReba an piriqiT, miuRebloba da am sakiTxze fiqrebisTvis mudmivad Tavis arideba, rac sabolood vlindeba sikvdilis mimarT SiSsa da SfoTvaSi, SiSis gacnobiereba ki pirveli nabijia misi daZlevis gzaze. sikvdils veravin gaeqceva, maxsovs, rom sikvdili melis. . . vxuWav Tvals da vfiqrob, rom yvelaferi morCa. sinamdvileSi yvelaferi Semdeg iwyeba. isev vaxel Tvals da mzeras vusworeb sinaTles, raRac ucnaurs. sveli, SiSveli, mSieri. . . aseTebi vibadebiT da umetesoba aseve agrZelebs cxovrebas. yvelas Cveni jojoxeTi gvaqvs amqveynad da sikvdiliT wydeba yvela problema. gvaSinebs is dro, Tu rodis iqneba meored mosvla. vfiqrob, rodesac kaci kvdeba, misTvis meored mosvla maSinve iwyeba, radgan adamiani im mdgomareobiT gasamarTldeba, ra mdgomareobaSic sikvdili mouswrebs.
– intervius ra fraziT daamTavrebdiT?
– gavuRimoT erTmaneTs, cota siTbo, siyvaruli, cotac mzis sxivi, Tovli gavuyoT erTmaneTs. me ras gaCuqebT? aTas leqss, aTas sityvas, Cems guls, Cems suls da Cems Tavs gaCuqebT. Cemi samyaroc Tqveni iyos, oRond cota Rimili gamiyaviT, gaminaTeT cxovrebis gza Tqveni mravali ferebiT!
