,,საქართველოს დასავლეთთან დაახლოება შეუქცევადი პროცესია”…
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jerjerobiT isev or polusadaa gayofili saqarTvelos politikuri veli, Tumca SeimCneva politikuri speqtris gamravalferovneba – calke `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ aqtiurobs da opoziciis nawils axali centris Camoyalibebas sTavazobs, CrdilSi yofnas arc gaxarias partia apirebs da arCevnebSi mniSvnelovan Sedegs prognozirebs. cxadia, gamarjvebaze saubroben mmarTveli partia da `nacmoZraoba~. udavoa, rom 2024 wlis saparlamento arCevnebi istoriuli mniSvnelobisaa mraval faqtoridan gamomdinare. jer erTi, arCevnebi mxolod proporciuli wesiT Catardeba da Tanac, dasavleTi gamadidebeli SuSiT dagvakvirdeba. amas cxadyofs Tundac amas winaT TbilisSi evrokavSiris maRalCinosan Jozef borelis viziti. am mxriv, erTgvari lakmusi iqneba evrokomisiis daskvna saqarTvelosTvis kandidatis statusTan mimarTebiT. Tu rogor CavabarebT demokratiis tests, bevrwilad ganapirobebs saqarTvelos momavals evrointegraciis kuTxiT. . . ra Sansi gvaqvs kandidatis statusis misaRebad, ra stadiaSia opozicia da ramdenad samarTliania maTi pretenzia xelisuflebis mimarT? am sakiTxis garSemo Tavis Sexedulebas `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ aWaris axalgazrduli organizaciis xelmZRvaneli arCil beriZe gviziarebs.
– mmarTveli partia acxadebs, rom prezidentma daarRvia konstitucia da gadalaxa wiTeli xazebi. ramdenad safuZveliania maTi pretenzia?
– prezidents aqvs ufleba, CaniSnos vizitebi sxvadasxva qveynis warmomadgenlebTan, gansakuTrebiT aseT periodSi, roca saqarTvelos sasicocxlod sWirdeba kandidatis statusi. CemTvis gaurkvevelia, mTavrobam ratom ar misca mas nebarTva am vizitebze. gverds ver avuvliT im faqts, rom zurabiSvili namdvilad wavida mTavrobis Tanxmobis gareSe. es samarTlebrivad iuristebma da konstitucionalistebma unda Seafason. me vityvi, rom zurabiSvilis gambedaoba SesaSuric ki aris, radgan, am SemTxvevaSi, saxelmwifos interesis (kandidatis statusis miReba) yvelaferze maRla dayenebiT igi Riad daupirispirda mmarTvel partias. rac Seexeba impiCmentis sakiTxs, prezidentis impiCmenti `qarTuli ocnebis~ kidev erTi gzavnilia ruseTisTvis, rom maT (`ocnebas~) ar surT saqarTvelos evrokavSirSi gawevrianeba. ufro konkretulad, es adasturebs, rom „ocneba“ ar aris evropuli Rirebulebebis partia da maT ar ainteresebT saqarTvelos momavali.
– aranakleb mniSvnelovani ambebi xdeba opoziciaSi, axlaxan `nacmoZraobam~ da `strategia aRmaSeneblma~ axali platforma Seqmnes saarCevnod?
– nebismier gaerTianebas, sadac `nacionaluri moZraoba~ iqneba mTavari, perspeqtiva ar aqvs, radgan is sazogadoebisTvis mTavar miuRebel Zalad rCeba (`ocnebis~ pirobebSi amis moxerxeba rTulia, magram `nacmoZraoba~ mainc lideria am sakiTxSi), vaSaZis qmedebebi ki sruliad araTanmimdevrulia, xan tovebs `nacmoZraobas~, xan uerTdeba… albaT, fiqrobs, rom xabeiSvilis fonze ukeTes liderad Camoyalibdeba. realurad ki Zalian araseriozuli Cans es gaerTianeba.
– opoziciis daniSnuleba ara mxolod xelisuflebis kritika unda iyos, aramed mosaxleobas qveynis krizisidan gamosvlis gzebic unda daanaxos. am mxriv, opoziciuri speqtri ramdenad Tanmimdevrulia?
– opozicias Zalian bevri samuSao aqvs amomrCevlis ndobis mosapoveblad. erTia, `qarTuli ocnebis~ propaganda, yvela partia `nacionaluri moZraobis~ ganayofad warmoaCinos (rac opoziciis diskreditaciaa) da meore, Tavad opoziciis Camouyalibebloba, xSirad ki gaurkveveli nabijebi, rac amomrCevels abnevs. opozicias marTebs, sazogadoebas daanaxos realuri cvlilebebis SesaZlebloba. am etapze sazogadoeba fiqrobs, rom mmarTveli Zalis SecvliT mxolod saxel- gvarebi Seicvleba, rac arasworia. xelisuflebis Secvla niSnavs saqarTvelos dabrunebas evropul relsebze, brZolas korufciasa da nepotizmTan, siRaribis daZlevisTvis SesaZleblobis maqsimumis gakeTebas, ukeTes ganaTlebas da jandacvas. opozicia gulwrfelad unda saubrobdes sazogadoebis mTavari problemis – socialuri siduxWiris daZlevis gzebze. Cemi azriT, swored am gzaze gadis ndoba sazogadoebasa da opozicias Soris.
– Tqvenma partiam gaaJRera axali opoziciuri gaerTianebis sakiTxi, ra siaxlea am mimarTebiT?
– pirveli, rac minda aRvniSno, aris `droas~ da `girCi – meti Tavisuflebis~ gaerTianeba, rac CemTvis moulodneli ar yofila. cota gasakviric ki aris maTi daSla da xelaxla gaerTianeba, rac amomrCevels abnevs da indiferentuls xdis, magram saerTo opoziciuri speqtrisTvis sasikeToa, vinaidan es daZravs process opoziciaSi da am or partias miscems barieris gadalaxvis SesaZleblobas. rac Seexeba `lelos~, Cven molaparakebebs vawarmoebT sxvadasxva partiasTan, magram am mimarTulebiT jer raime cvlileba ar aris. yvelaferi win aris, dro gviCvenebs. `lelo~ yovelTvis gaakeTebs imas, rac saqarTvelos saaxelmwifosTvis iqneba ukeTesi, radgan Cven vmoqmedebT erovnuli interesebidan gamomdinare. sxvadasxva partiasTan Cveni TanamSromlobac swored erovnuli interesis gaTvaliswinebiT moxdeba, amaSi eWvi aravis unda Seeparos.
– `arc xelisuflebas da arc `nacmoZraobas~ ar surs, rom axali Zala gamoCndes~, – ganacxada eqspertma vaxtang ZabiraZem. Tqven ras fiqrobT?
– gulwrfelad getyviT, mgonia, rom `nacmoZraoba~ da `qarTuli ocneba~ erTmaneTiT cocxloben da xSir SemTxvevaSi, saerTo interesebis gaTvaliswinebiT moqmedeben, raTa politikur velze status-kvo ar Seicvalos, es ki qveynis erovnul interess Zalian did safrTxes uqmnis. bolo periodSi ganviTarebuli procesebiT SegviZlia vTqvaT, rom `nacmoZraoba~ da `qarTuli ocneba~ dasasrulisken midian. maT resursi amowures da rogorc ar unda ecadon, mouwevT gverdze gaweva, amomrCevlis nebas win veravin aRudgeba.
– cxadia, yvela mouTmenlad elis evroparlamentis verdiqts kandidatis statusis Taobaze. Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb?…
– `qarTul ocnebas~ ar surs kandidatis statusis miReba da amisTvis yvelafers akeTebs. maT eSiniaT kandidatis statusis, radgan is gulisxmobs met gamWvirvalobas, uflebamosilebis delegirebas, pasuxismgeblobas sazogadoebis winaSe, es ki `qarTuli ocnebis~ avtoritaruli reJimis dasasrulis tolfasia. Tumca, unda gvaxsovdes, rom evrokavSiri kandidatis statusis miniWebisas iTvaliswinebs sazogadoebis survilebs, amitomac, darwmunebuli var, evrokavSirSi gawevrianebis procesi Seuqcevadia da „qarTuli ocneba“ ver wagvarTmevs am SesaZleblobas.
– amas winaT, saqarTveloSi oficialuri vizitiT evrokavSiris warmomadgeneli imyofeboda, romlis mesijebi politikosebma sxvadasxvanairad aRiqves.
– borelma ganacxada, rom kandidatis statusis miReba damokidebulia rekomendaciebis Sesrulebasa da politikur nebaze, rac, ra Tqma unda, gansxvavebulad gaiges poziciasa da opoziciaSi. qarTveli politikosebi nebismier sakiTxs ise aRiqvamen, rogorc maTTvis ukeTesia, xSir SemTxvevaSi, Zalian subieqturad. xelisufleba aseT dros opoziciis diskreditacias axdens, opozicia xelisuflebas akritikebs da konkretuli naTqvamis Sinaarsi ikargeba. faqti faqtad rCeba, rekomendaciebis Sesrulebis mxriv aris xarvezebi, naklovanebebi, magram aris mTavari komponenti – sazogadoebis absolutur umravlesobas surs evrokavSirSi gawevrianeba, rasac evrokavSiri aucileblad gaiTvaliswinebs.
– kvlav saSinao sakiTxs davubrundeT. rogorc cnobilia, arCevnebi proporciuli sistemiT Catardeba, es ra Sanss aZlevs opoziciur speqtrs Tundac koaliciuri mTavrobis Sesaqmnelad?
– nawilobriv maJoritaruli sistemidan srulad proporciul sistemaze gadasvla „qarTuli ocnebis“ Sansebs kidev ufro amcirebs, radgan mas sWirdeba sazogadoebisgan Zalian maRali legitimacia, rac ar gaaCnia. 5 %-iani barieris SemTxvevaSic, „qarTul ocnebas“ ar aqvs resursi, SeinarCunos Zalaufleba, Tuki sxva partiebTan ar iTanamSromlebs da iseTi partia, romelmac SeiZleba `ocnebasTan~ iTanamSromlos, bariers ver gadalaxavs. Tuki opozicia moaxerxebs, rom mTavrobas barieri daawevinos, es maTi gamarjvebis Sansebs kidev ufro gazrdis. amitomac axla opozicias ufro meti motivacia unda hqondes, rom amomrCevelTan maqsimaluri kontaqtiT da TanmimdevrulobiT daamarcxos ivaniSvilis reJimi, rac martivi ar aris, magram arc SeuZlebelia.
– momavali arCevnebi urTierTdapirispirebis fonze Caivlis Tu gveRirseba civilizebuli saarCevno garemo?
– saarCevno garemo, arCevnebis moaxloebasTan erTad, ufro da ufro iZabeba. `qarTuli ocneba~ Zalauflebis SesanarCuneblad yvelaferzea wamsvleli, maT Soris, fizikur dapirispirebaze (rac ukve araerTxel vixileT). opozicia gamarjvebasTan ase axlos arasdros yofila, amitomac aris saWiro maqsimaluri sifrTxile, partniorebTan TanamSromlobis zrda (arCevnebze dakvirveba). 2024 wlis arCevnebi iqneba Zalian rTuli, daZabuli, mudmivi dapirispirebebiT, magram istoriuli kanonzomierebaa, rom „moZalade“ mTavrobas Zaladoba spobs, „qarTuli ocnebac“ frTxilad unda iyos, sazogadoeba Zalian uaryofiTad aris ganwyobili maT mimarT da ar unda uRirdeT moqalaqeebis moTminebis gamocda.
– momavali arCevnebi iqneba Tu ara testi, dasavleTs ufro davuaxlovdebiT Tu davSordebiT?
– saqarTvelos dasavleTTan daaxloeba Seuqcevadi procesia da veravin SeZlebs win aRudges amas. sazogadoebis absoluturi umravlesobis arCevani aris dasavluri da is yvelafers gaakeTebs am arCevanis dasacavad. `qarTuli ocnebis~ politikuri kursis Sesaxeb kiTxvebi aRar aris, maTi ritorika Riad aCvenebs, rom `ocneba~ aris antidasavluri Zala, romelsac ar surs saqarTvelos ganviTareba da sazogadoebis problemebis mogvareba. maTi xelisuflebaSi darCeniT es procesi gaiweleba. ra Tqma unda, opoziciis gamarjvebis SemTxvevaSi saqarTvelos evrokavSirSi integraciis tempi gaizrdeba. amitomac aris aucilebeli, rom es procesi ar Seferxdes da antidasavluri xelisufleba Seicvalos koaliciuri mTavrobiT, romelic saqarTvelos ganviTarebis temps daaCqarebs.
– gverds ver avuvliT ukrainas, am qveynis gamarjveba ra dividendebs moutans saqarTvelos?
– ukrainis gamarjveba, pirvel rigSi, ruseTis uZlevelobis miTs mouRebs bolos, raSic qarTveli prorusebic darwmundebian da mouwevT Rirebulebebis gadafaseba (rogorc minimum, dafiqreba am sakiTxze). ufro globalurad rom SevxedoT sakiTxs, ruseTis dasustebiT saqarTveloc ixeirebs, aucilebeli gaxdeba qarTuli bazris diversifikacia (rac ekonomikuradac da politikuradac CamogvaSorebs ruseTs). erT-erTi yvelaze mniSvnelovani faqtori, rac am process mohyveba, iqneba afxazeTsa da samaCablosTan daaxloeba, es ki realobad aqcevs saqarTvelos gaerTianebis ideas.
