“გირჩს” როცა ახსენებენ, ყველამ იცის, ამ პარტიას რა უნდა”
laSa xomeriki 593 50 82 69 –
yvelasTvis naTelia, rom qveyanaSi arastabiluri politikuri garemoa. gadaadgilebebia politikur scenaze, opoziciasa da xelisuflebas Soris, risi umTavresi mizezi `ucxouri gavlenis gamWirvalobis Sesaxeb~ kanonia, romelic, opoziciis TqmiT, rusulia da miznad isaxavs saxelmwifoSi diqtaturis damyarebas, rasac mmarTveli partia ar eTanxmeba da aRniSnavs, rom opozicia, ZiriTadad, dezinformaciiTaa dakavebuli. aRsaniSnavia isic, rom dasavleTi SeSfoTebulia da xelisuflebas zemoaRniSnuli kanonis gauqmebas urCevs, winaaRmdeg SemTxvevaSi qveyanas daxmarebis Sewyvetas araorazrovnad uwinaswarmetyveleben. rogorc Cans, realurad, brZolaa 2024 wlis saparlamento arCevnebisTvis, amitomac oponentebi erTmaneTs ar indoben, rac saqarTveloSi mimdinare procesebs kidev ufro arTulebs. udavoa, rom safrTxeebis winaSe dgas Cveni qveyana. ra gziTaa SesaZlebeli maTi Tavidan acileba? amis Sesaxeb `girCi – meti Tavisuflebis~ aWaris organizaciis xelmZRvanel Temur gorgaZes vesaubreT.
– saubari Cvens qveyanaSi arsebuli viTarebiT daviwyoT, ra movlenebs gamoyofdiT?
– am epoqis qarTvelebs saqarTvelos istoriaSi pirvelad gvaqvs Sansi da privilegiac, rom evrokavSirTan integraciis gziT qveyana gaviyvanoT samSvidobo gzaze. es Sansi, praqtikulad, langriT miviReT. ukrainaSi rusulma agresiam civilur samyaros aCvena, rom ar SeiZleba patara mokavSireebis mitoveba ruseTis pirispir, amitomac mogveca SesaZlebloba, 2030-Si gavxdeT im sivrcis sruluflebiani wevri, razec Cveni winaprebi ocnebobdnen, magram bedis ironiaa albaT, rom istoriis am monakveTSi gvyavs xelisufleba, romelic Tavisi qmedebiT Cveni winaprebis saukunovan ocnebas ayovnebs. aRsaniSnavia, rom saqarTvelos mosaxleobis absoluturi umravlesoba ar apirebs ukeTesi momavlis daTmobas.
– parlamentma axalgazrdebis, opoziciis, dasavleTis protestis miuxedavad, sabolood mainc miiRo kanoni `ucxouri gavlenis gamWirvalobis Sesaxeb~. ra aris Tqveni SeSfoTebis safuZveli?
– aranairi `ucxouri gavlenis gamWirvalobis Sesaxeb~ kanoni es ar aris. ase saxelisuflebo partiasac `qarTuli ocneba~ hqvia, magram aris ki qarTvelebis ocneba ruseTi?! calsaxad – ara! sxvaTa Soris, mdinaraZe da kobaxiZec gaiZaxian, evropa gvindao, magram maTi qmedebebi sapirispiros amtkicebs. amitom es kanoni aris ara ucxouri gavlenis gamWirvalobis, aramed represiebis, daSinebis, rusul gzaze dayenebisa da adamianebis agentebad Seracxvis kanoni. Cemi SeSfoTebis safuZveli bevri ram aris, SemiZlia kanons muxlobrivad Cavyve. rom gaiZaxian, vinmem argumenti gviTxraso, ager Tqveni mediis meSveobiTac vTavazob xelisuflebis nebismier wevrs, Tundac aWaris masStabiT, pirdapir eTerSi davujde da davumtkico, rom es kanoni rusulia. aseve, pirdapir eTerSi diskusia SesTavaza maT Cveni partiis Tavmjdomare zura jafariZem. gabedes? vera! ra Tqma unda, ver gabedaven. Tavadac ician, rom kanoni rusulia, amitom, rogorc ityvian, wyals nayaven. Cvens SeSfoTebas iwvevs is, rom TiTqmis aravin darCa, ar eTqvas, rom am kanonis miReba gamoiwvevs Cveni qveynisTvis saziano movlenebs: uvizo reJimis droebiT SeCerebas, kandidatis statusis Sesaxeb molaparakebis dawyebis gadavadebas da a. S. es kanoni sulac rom oqrosi iyos, am yvelafers rom azianebs, ratom unda miiRo, Tu qveynis interesebis moRalate ar xar?! gamWvirvalobaze rom apelireben da gaiZaxian, deklaraciis Cabarebas viTxovTo, saqarTveloSi registrirebuli nebismieri iuridiuli piri, iqneba es Sps, Tu arasamewarmeo (arakomerciuli) iuridiuli piri (e. w. enjeo) Semosavlebis samsaxurSi abareben yovelTviur da, aseve, yovelwliur deklaracias. Semosavlebis samsaxurs onlainreJimSi, nebismier wams SeuZlia naxos, vin ra Semosavali miiRo da raSi daxarja, ramdeni gasca xelfasi da a. S. amasTanave, grantebs kidev calke kanoni aregulirebs, aseve, TiTqmis yvela arasamTavrobo sakuTar vebgverdze aqveynebs aRniSnul informaciebs, enjeoebi, realurad, samjer mowmdeba, es gamWvirvaloba araa? mokled, xelisufleba aseTi qmedebiT dasavleTs gvaSorebs, esaa Cemi SeSfoTebis mizezic.
– mmarTveli gundis wevrebi amboben, rom kanoni evropulia da opoziciis SeniSvnebi usafuZvloa. . .
– mmarTveli partiis wevrebs hgoniaT, rom xalxma kiTxva ar icis. es kanoni rom evropuli araa, maT Tavad evropelebma uTxres. germaniis kanclerma Solcma kobaxiZes preskonferenciaze uTxra, tyuils ambobo. ise, `guglis~ moxmareba yvelam iswavla da Tu moZebnis, yvela naxavs, rom msgavsi kanoni arcerT evropul qveyanaSi ar arsebobs. `qarTuli ocneba~ saubrobs evrokavSirSi inicirebul kanonproeqtze, romelsac mmarTveli partiis mier inicirebul rusul kanonTan aranairi Tanxvedra ar aqvs. Tavad evropelebi miuTiTeben, rom es kanonproeqti mxolod inicirebulia da, didi albaTobiT, kanonad ar iqceva.
– evroparlamentarebisgan da aseve amerikeli senatorebisgan gaisma muqara saqarTvelos xelisuflebis wevrebisTvis sanqciebis dawesebis Sesaxeb. es risi maniSnebelia?
– `qarTuli ocneba~ dRiTidRe emsgavseba ruseTs. misi qmedeba daaxloebiT, iciT, ras hgavs? saqarTvelos safexburTo erovnuli nakrebis wevrebma rom Tqvan – Cven xeliT TamaSi gvinda, aseve, stadionze Coxa-axaluxiT unda gamovideTo. uefam rom uTxras – xalxo, ar SeiZleba es, Cvens wesebs ewinaaRmdegebao da mainc uefas rom dauwyon kritika – uefa ra cudia, Coxa-axaluxiT ar gvaZlevs TamaSis uflebaso. saboloo jamSi, Tu gavalT stadionze da xeliT TamaSs daviwyebT, dagvajarimeben, asevea, evropis da amerikis qmedebac, mTavroba arRvevs wesebs, isinic Sesabamisad iqcevian.
– eqspertTa TqmiT, Tu evrokavSiri saqarTvelos kandidatis statuss SeuCerebs, qveynis ekonomika mniSvnelovnad dazaraldeba. ras fiqrobT?
– mxolod kandidatis statusis SeCerebaze ar aris saubari, aramed – uvizo reJimis droebiT SeCerebazec. jer amerikis mxridan sanqciebi ar yofila gaJRerebuli, praqtikulad, evrokavSirs qmediTi nabijebi jer ar gadaudgams da ukve qarTuli kompaniebis 3 miliardamde lari aorTqlda londonis safondo birJaze. es maSin, roca jer dasavleTis mxridan qmediTi nabijebi ar gadadgmula.
– ar wydeba qveyanaSi antisaxelisuflebo mitingebi. ra cxadyo man? gaxmianda erovnuli daumorCileblobis kampaniis Taobaze ganacxadic opoziciis mxridan. . .
– aqciebma cxadyo bevri ram, maT Soris is, rom es xalxi, es axalgazrda Taoba, romelic am protestis avangardSi dgas, realurad ar daRlila da ar daTmobs sakuTar momavals. am aqciebma cxadyo isic, rom mmarTveli partiis propaganda ver moqmedebs jenzi Taobaze, radgan yvela wina aqcias hyavda erTi an ramdenime gamokveTili lideri, Sesabamisad, biZina ivaniSvili am liderebs aSavebda da protestis diskreditacias axerxebda. axla sxva situaciaa, masobrivi aqtiurobaa, amas yvela vxedavT. baTumSi mowyobil TiTqmis yvela saprotesto aqciaze videqi, roca erT-erT aqciaze monawileebma ver daminaxes, dawyebidan aTi wuTi ar iyo gasuli, rom momikiTxes. . . Tu sxva dros aqciebze politikosebi cdilobdnen xalxis gayvanas, axla piriqiTaa, xalxi gamovida da politikosebi moikiTxa. imis Tqma minda, rom me ki aravin gaviyvane, iqiT gamiyvanes aqciaze. roca xalxi ase iqceva, Sen, mowinaaRmdegev (vinc unda iyo), ramdenic unda aSavo Temur gorgaZe (an vinme sxva), azri ar aqvs mag kampanias, araferi gamova.
– xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebi acxadeben, rom opoziciis mizania qveynis destabilizacia da revoluciis mowyoba. . .
– arcerTi revolucia arasodes mouwyvia opozicias, revolucias awyobs ori faqtori – Tavad xelisufleba da xalxi, Tu xelisufali iqceva ise, rom xalxs meti gamosavali ar rCeba. diax, xalxi awyobs revolucias. zemoT ukve giTxariT, rom saprotesto aqciis monawileebs aqciaze iqiT gavyavar da rogor SeiZleba me movawyo revolucia? marTla vinmes hgonia, rom im aqciebze xalxi opoziciuri partiebis dakveTiT dadis? es xom sisulelea. amdeni xalxis aqciaze gamoyvana rom romelime partias SeeZlos, biZina ivaniSvili didi xnis gaqceuli iqneboda moskovSi. aqciis monawileTa didi nawili apartiulia, icis, rom ar unda ruseTi da amitom dadis iq.
– eqspertebi aRniSnaven, rom zemoaRniSnuli kanonis miReba moaxloebul arCevnebs ukavSirdeba. ra stadiaSia opoziciis winasaarCevno kampania da xom ar igegmeba erTiani platformis Seqmna?
– aRniSnuli kanonis miReba mxolod arCevnebs ar SeiZleba ukavSirdebodes. ki, ra Tqma unda, erT-erTi mizani egec aris, magram ara – erTaderTi. aRniSnuli kanoni grZelvadian mizanzea gaTvlili, romelic qveyanaSi diqtaturas daamyarebs da daaSorebs civilur samyaros. rac Seexeba opozicias da erTian platformas, am mxriv Cveni partia Zalian pirnaTelia. diax, praqtikulad, or welze metia, sul imaze vsaubrobT, rom saWiroa didi erToba, Tu gvinda ruseTis moSoreba. Tavidan amaze saubari rom daviwye, opoziciaSic ki bevrma dagvcina, gvlanZRes da a.S. axla ki yvela xvdeba, rom erTaderTi gamosavali didi erTobaa. gadiT quCaSi, gaaCereT opoziciurad ganwyobili 10 amomrCevli da hkiTxeT, ra undaT maT: aTidan, albaT, minimum, rva getyviT, rom unda gaerTiandes opozicia da movugebT biZinas. diax, esaa gza, Tavis droze ase moego biZinamac miSas… am qveyanaSi dasavleTis msurvelTa raodenoba ruseTis msurvelebs yovelTvis aTjer aRemateboda, asea axlac.
– wina arCevnebSi brZola or politikur Zalas Soris mimdinareobda, amjerad gamoCndeba realuri mesame Zala?
– ara, arcerT wina arCevnebze brZola or Zalas Soris ar mimdinareobda. es iyo biZina ivaniSvilis propaganda, rom aqeT Cven varT, iqiT – sisxliani nacebi da morCa. wina da sxva nebismier arCevnebze 20-30 partia iyo biuletenSi. marTalia, finansebi da media (rac arCevnebis mosagebadaa saWiro) SeiZleba cotas hqonda da aqvs axlac, magram realurad am qveyanaSi bevria partiac da amomrCevelic, vinc arc `nacmoZraobas~ da arc `qarTul ocnebas~ aZlevs xmas. rac Seexeba Cvens partias, am qveyanaSi erT-erTi (Tu erTaderTi ara) mkafio ideologiis mqone partia varT. maSin roca xelisuflebaSi rusebi gizian da roca ici, rom erTaderTi gamosavali am rusebis mosaSoreblad erTi didi erTobaa, gviwevs xolme partiuli ambiciebis gverdze gadadeba da saerTo brZolaSi Sesvla. amas vemxrobodiT, minimum, 2022 wlidan da amas vemxrobiT axlac, magram es araviTar SemTxvevaSi ar niSnavs imas, rom didi erToba ar gamova (rac Zalian meeWveba). Cven calke ar gavalT. asec da isec brZolisTvis mzad varT im SesaZleblobebiTa da resursebiT, rac gvaqvs.
– 2020 wlis arCevnebma cxadyo, rom mosaxleobis 45 procenti arCevnebSi ar monawileobda, am mxriv, opozicia ramdenad safuZvlianad uxsnis maT arCevnebis mniSvnelobas?
– es sakiTxi zogadad qveynisTvis mTavari problemaa, magram Cveni partiisTvis calke mtkivneuli sakiTxia. nebismieri kvleviT, Cveni amomrCevlebis umravlesoba axalgazrdaa, misi didi nawili arCevnebze ar dadis. xSirad vxumrob xolme, yvela, visac movwonvarT, arCevnebze rom dadiodes, xelisuflebaSi viqnebodiT-meTqi. xelisuflebaSi albaT vera, magram sakmaod maRali procenti ki gveqneboda. arCevnebs partiis mxridan sWirdeba menejmenti, menejments – finansuri resursi da samwuxarod, es is sakiTxia, rac Cven ar gvaqvs mogvarebuli, magram am arCevnebze bevrs vmuSaobT saamisod, aseve, vzrunavT emigrantebis saarCevno xmis uflebisaTvis (gvaqvs proeqti `saarCevno yuTi – Sens qalaqSi~). xelisufleba ise iqceva, rom didian-patarianad yvela gabrazebulia, amitom imedi maqvs, am arCevnebze bevri xalxi mova.
– dabolos, rogori iqneba ZalTa gadanawileba momaval parlamentSi?
– rogori iqneba ZalTa gadanawileba, amis winaswar Tqma zRvaSi ankesis Cagdebas niSnavs. prognozireba ar miyvars, minda rom iyos koaliciuri mTavroba, sadac Cems partias ar eqneba albaT umravlesoba, magram – gadamwyveti xma. arCevnebamde minda winaswar SevuTanxmde partiebs Sinaarsobriv sakiTxebze, droulad icodes amomrCevelma, romel partias ra surs, radgan Cven klasikuri liberalizmis (libertarianizmis) mimdevari partia varT. `girCs~ roca axseneb, yvelam icis, am partias ra unda, ras iTxovs, ra ideologia aqvs da ras qadagebs.
