“სასწორზე ევროპის და მსოფლიოს უსაფრთხოება დევს”
laSa xomeriki 593 50 82 69 –
dRes natos vaSingtonis samitia. mogexsenebaT, aliansi metad mniSvnelovani samxedro-politikuri organizaciaa, romelic Tanamedrove msoflios momavals aSS-sTan, evrokavSirTan da CineTTan erTad wyvets. igi jer kidev gasul saukuneSi Seiqmna, raTa daecva dasavleT evropa gasabWoebisgan, rac am organizaciam Seasrula da sabWoTa kavSirTan WidilSi gamarjvebuli gamovida. mas Semdeg didi dro gavida da Cndeba kiTxvebi: ra transformacia ganicada aliansma, ra gamowvevebis winaSea, rodis gaerTiandeba natoSi ukraina, rogoria aliansis gafarToebis politika da saqarTvelos molodini aRniSnuli TvalsazrisiT? am da sxva aqtualur sakiTxebze saerTaSoriso urTierTobebis specialisti giorgi koberiZe gvesaubreba.
– wlebis ganmavlobaSi natom ra transformacia ganicada da ra gamowvevebis winaSea dRes?
– nato yovelTvis iyo Tavdacvis aliansi da amadve rCeba. am mxriv mas didi cvlileba ar ganucdia, Tumca misTvis axali sicocxlis dasawyisi gaxda ruseTis agresia ukrainaSi, radgan arsebobda Sexeduleba, TiTqos natom Tavisi Tavi amowura, mteri aRar arsebobda da kontinentze samudamo mSvidoba miRweuli iyo, magram ase ar aRmoCnda. rodesac ruseTma daiwyo agresia ukrainis teritoriaze, natos gafarToebis mowmenic gavxdiT.
– ramdenad adekvaturad pasuxobs nato ruseTidan momaval safrTxeebs?
– aliansis pasuxi ruseTis agresiaze bolomde damakmayofilebeli ar aris. natos resursebi deficituria, radganac aliansis wevrma saxelmwifoebma imdenad bevri ar gaiRes sakuTari TavdacvisTvis, ramdensac proporciulad gascems didi britaneTi da aSS. cxadi gaxda, rom amerikis SeerTebul Statebsac ki im raodenobiT iaraRi ar hqonia Tavis sawyobebSi, rom uceb masStaburi omisTvis hqonoda maragi. amitomac gaxda imis gaazreba saWiro, rom nato unda gadaiaraRdes da iaraRis warmoeba im donemde gazardos, rom masStaburi omebisTvis iyos sakmarisi.
– axlovdeba natos vaSingtonis samiti, ras unda elodos ukraina misgan?
– pirvel rigSi, unda aRvniSnoT, rom axali civi omis konteqstia aq Zalian saintereso im gagebiT, rom ukrainaSi axla ara mxolod ruseT-ukrainis bedi wydeba, aramed realurad am procesSi CarTulia iseTi agresiuli reJimebic, rogorebicaa – CineTi da gansakuTrebiT, misi mokavSire CrdiloeT korea. es niSnavs, rom CineTis xeldasmiT xdeba misi CarTva am procesSi. CrdiloeT koream ara mxolod didi raodenebiT iaraRis miwodeba daiwyo ruseTisTvis, aramed koreeli instruqtorebic gagzavna ukrainaSi ruseTis dasaxmareblad, es ki ufro arTulebs saqmes. aqamde am procesSi CarTuli iyo irani, rac niSnavs imas, rom ukrainis sazRvrebs gascda konfliqti, romelic civi omis kategoriebSi moiazreba.
– cxadia, vidre ukrainaSi omi ar dasruldeba, am qveyanas natoSi aravin miiRebs, ramdenad dainteresebulia dasavleTi am omis umokles vadebSi dasrulebiT?
– kremli iTxovs dapyrobiTi omebis legalizebas ara mxolod evropis kontinentze, aramed msoflioSi, iqidan gamomdinare, rom Tuki qveyanas ufleba aqvs, Tavisi e. w. istoriis safuZvlebze awarmoos samxedro moqmedebebi da dapyrobiTi omebi, ratom ar SeiZleba es gaakeTos nebismierma sxva saxelmwifom msoflios nebismier wertilSi. dRes sasworze evropis da msoflios usafrTxoeba devs, radganac Tuki dapyrobiTi omebi gaxda legaluri, es iqneba pandoras yuTi, romlis gaxsnis SemTxvevaSi miviRebT kidev ufro met destabilizacias. saqme is aris, rom TiTqmis mTel msoflioSi saxelmwifoebs aqvT istoriuli sadavo teritoriebi Tavis mezoblebTan.
– amaswinaT ruseTis prezidentma dasavleTis gasagonad ganacxada, rom natom ar unda miiRos ukraina am organizaciaSi, ras fiqrobT?
– ukraina natoSi axla SeiZleba ar gawevriandes, magram Cven vxedavT, rom es qveyana xdeba im donaciis srulfasovani beneficiari, romelsac iRebs nato. praqtikulad, aliansis yvelaze axlo mokavSired iqca ukraina, cxadia, omSi gamarjvebis SemTxvevaSi, ukrainas eqneba Zalian didi Sansi ara mxolod gawevrianebisa natoSi, aramed natos erT-erT yvelaze wamyvan saxelmwifod qcevis, radganac mas eqneba aRmosavleT evropaSi yvelaze didi samxedro gamocdileba da warmoeba, romelsac miaRwia omis periodSi, ganaviTara sakuTar teritoriaze, miwisqveSeTSi, mokavSireebis teritoriaze, Seqmna damatebiTi iaraRebi da axali koncefciebi. es iqneba erT-erTi yvelaze brZolisunariani saxelmwifo, rac niSnavs, rom ara mxolod ukraina iqneba dainteresebuli natoTi, aramed natoc – ukrainiT. . .
– aris mosazreba, rom SesaZloa natom cvlilebebi Seitanos gafarToebis sakiTxSi, anu aRar dasWirdes yvela saxelmwifos Tanxmoba Tundac ukrainis natoSi gawevrianebas. . .
– vfiqrob, aseTi cvlileba ar moxdeba. SeiZleba vetos sakiTxi gadaixedos, magram axali wevris ratificireba, wesiT da rigiT, yvela saxelmwifos mouwevs. Zalian rTulia, saxelmwifo aiZulo, daexmaros sxva saxelmwifos, Tuki Sen misi miRebis winaaRmdegi iyavi. amitomac, maRali albaTobiT, aseTi konsensusis uaryofa naklebad moxdeba. Cven vixileT TurqeTi da ungreTi rom aferxebdnen fineTisa da SvedeTis gawevrianebas, magram vixileT isic, rom molaparakebebiT es procesi daZlies. saeWvoa, rom rTulad daiZlios konsensusis sakiTxi da natom uaryos aRniSnuli koncefcia, magram maRali albaTobiT, SemuSavdeba axali wevri saxelmwifos miRebis winandelze advili raime meqanizmi, Tumca igi rTuli mosafiqrebelia, radganac konsensusi saWiroa ara mxolod axali wevris misaRebad, aramed mis dasacavadac. Tuki am konsensuss ewinaaRmdegebi da ar ginda axali wevris dacva, mere Zalian rTuli iqneba samxedroebi aiZulo, daicvan axali wevri saxelmwifo. msgavsi problema aqvs, institucionaluri TvalsazrisiT, evrokavSirsac axal wevrebTan mimarTebiT. Zalian saintereso sakiTxia es.
– amboben, rom natom Tavisi arsebobis ganmavlobaSi sami ram gaakeTa: evropa gaaerTiana, kremlis ambiciebi moToka da aliansi gaafarTova, natosTvis kidev ra mizani SeiZleba iyos mTavari?
– natos mTavari mizani iyo, gamxdariyo funqciuri da Zlieri. wlebis ganmavlobaSi aliansis gafarToebis sakiTxi iyo daxuruli an uvadod gadadebuli aRmosavleTiT gafarToebasTan dakavSirebiT. Cven vixileT montenegros gawevrianeba, magram montenegro ar aris is teritoria, romelsac ruseTi pirdapir moiazrebs Tavisi gavlenis sferod, magram rodesac dRis wesrigSi dadgeba natoSi ukrainis gawevrianeba, es aris sruliad sxva reaoloba, es niSnavs, rom axali sicocxle STaberes natos, vixileT neitraluri ori saxelmwifos (fineTi, SvedeTi) gawevrianeba natoSi, romlebmac meore msoflio omis Semdgomi realoba uaryves, magram amjerad dainaxes realuri safrTxe, romelic momdinareobs ruseTidan. vxedavT, rom Sveicarias, romelmac ukrainas mxardaWera gamoucxada, sentimentebi aqvs mis mimarT, es unda aRvniSnoT im konteqstSi, rom Sveicarias es arasdros aravisTan gaukeTebia, rac niSnavs, rom natom sakuTari mimzidveloba kvlav daibruna.
– cxadia, gverds ver avuvliT ukrainas, omis ra fazaa iq?
– ukrainaSi axla omis Zalian aqtiuri fazaa, iniciativa rCeba ruseTis xelSi, Tumca iseTi aqtiuri aRar aris Seteva, rogorc es omis pirvel xuT TveSi iyo, gansakuTrebiT, Tebervlidan ivnisamde periodSi, rodesac ruseTma doneckis frontis garda sxva fronti gaxsna xarkovis olqis mimarTulebiT, magram vnaxeT, rom ruseTis Seteva SeCerebulia. iniciativa, rogorc aRvniSne, ruseTis xelSi rCeba. erT-erTi qalaqi volCanskia, romelic mdebareobs xarkovis olqSi. praqtikulad, ruseTma ver moaxerxa am qalaqis dakaveba. . . ruseTis armia kvlav rCeba brZolisunariani, magram ruseTs am omSi gardatexis Setana ar SeuZlia.
– aSS-is mxardaWeraze didadaa damokidebuli ukrainis bedi, trampis gamarjvebis SemTxvevaSi raa mosalodneli ukrainis mxardaWeris TvalsazrisiT?
– trampis xelisuflebis politika rogori iqneba, jer kidev ar aris cnobili, imis miuxedavad, Tu ras ambobs. trampi yovelTvis rCeboda bundovan politikosad, misi pozicionireba iseTi iyo, rom rasac erT dRes ambobs, SeiZleba meore dRes sruliad Secvalos, rac mis araprognozirebadobas cxadyofs. SeiZleba movlenebi kargi SedegiT dasruldes im gagebiT, rom trampma zewola gazardos ruseTze da ukrainas daexmaros, an SeiZleba miviRoT sruliad sxva realoba, is gaxdes ruseTisadmi lmobierad ganwyobili Zala. amitomac aris Zalian saSiSi misi fenomeni, ar viciT, realurad ras izams, Tumca furcelze mas Riad aqvs moTxovnili mSvidobaze aqcenti. ambobs, rom molaparakebebiT daasrulebs am oms, magram post faqtum ra realoba dadgeba, es kidev calke sakiTxia.
– rogorc cnobilia, ruseTi, natos msgavsad, evrokavSirsac miiCnevs safrTxed, ratom?
– ruseTisTvis evrokavSiri aris ara mxolod politikuri metoqe, aramed – civilizaciuri metoqec. kremli ewinaaRmdegeba evropul ideas, evropul identobas, amitomac aris antievropuli Zala. cnobilia, rom evrokavSirSi Sesulma saxelmwifoebma ruseTis politikur gavlenas daaRwies Tavi, amitomac ar surs ruseTs saxelmwifoebis iq xilva. vTqvaT isic, rom evrokavSirSi gawevrianeba niSnavs ekonomikurad dawinaurebas, winsvlas, met perspeqtivas, es avtomaturad gulisxmobs, rom ruseTTan mitmasvna aRaravis moundeba. ar arsebobs ruseTis mdidari megobrebi, patara mdidari mokavSire qveynebi. yvela misi partniori aris ufro Raribi, vidre evrokavSiris romelime saxelmwifo, amitomac misTvis evrokavSiri aris metoqe.
– geopolitikuri viTarebidan gamomdinare, natos sistemaze ukeTesi dacva Tu aris msoflioSi?
– am etapze evropis kontinentze usafrTxoebisTvis Cven ar gvaqvs (sistemuri TvalsazrisiT) ukeTesi meqanizmi, vidre natoa. ra Tqma unda, evrokavSirsac aqvs saerTo TavdacviTi Zalebis koncefciis SemuSavebis mcdeloba, magram realurad Zalian Wirs amis gakeTeba, radgan saerTo sardloba natos isedac hyavs. Zalian rTulia axali damatebiTi sardlobis Seqmna, Tuki evrokavSiri ar gardaiqmna federalur warmonaqmnad. amJamad igi ar aris federacia, es aris saxelmwifo gaerTianeba, anu politikuri da ekonomikuri gaerTianeba, magram saxelmwifos xasiaTi ar aqvs. . . am etapze evrokavSiris usafrTxoeba Zalian aris damokidebuli natoze da, ra Tqma unda, evrokavSiris usafrTxoebis koncefcia ver Caanacvlebs mas.
– dabolos, saqarTvelos konstituciaSi aRniSnulia da aseve, referendumzec dadasturda, rom saqarTvelos mizani natoSi gawevrianebaa, rodis gaiReba CvenTvis aliansis kari?
– Zalian samwuxaro realobaa, rom saqarTveloSi natoze saubari bolo wlebSi sruliad SeCerebulia. saqarTvelos mxridan fokusi evrokavSirisken ufroa mimarTuli. natoze saubari aRarc yofila bolo wlebSi da es Zalian SemaSfoTebelia, radganac mxolod natosken ki ar miiswrafvis (es mcdari koncefciaa zogadad), aramed natos standartebs uaxlovdeba, rac niSnavs, rom Cveni jari Zlierdeba da uaxlovdeba im niSnuls, rogoric SeiZleba iyos natos jaris formireba. ai, es aris Zalian saintereso, CvenTvis am organizaciaSi Sesvla marto qolgas ki ar unda gulisxmobdes, aramed miznad unda davisaxoT, rom saqarTvelo angariSgasawevi moTamaSe gaxdes regionSi da Tavisi wvlili Seitanos natoSi. aliansSi gawevrianebis koncefcia aseTia – axal saxelmwifosac unda hqondes raime, rac iqneba saintereso da sasurveli arsebuli wevrebisTvis. aqedan gamomdinare, vambob, rom Cven, samwuxarod, Sori gza gvaqvs gasavleli natoSi gawevrianebamde, magram am mxriv yuradReba ar unda movadunoT, radganac rogorc evrokavSirSi gawevrianebis Sansi arsebobs (momdevno 6 wlis ganmavlobaSi igi albaT daimatebs albaneTs, montenegrs, serbeTs, moldovas, ukrainas, saqarTvelos), aseve, natos gafarToebac logikuria da Sesabamisad, saqarTvelosTvis gaixsneba SesaZleblobis fanjara, romelic aucileblad unda gamoviyenoT.