„მხარეები შერიგდებიან იმ შემთხვევაში, თუ მმართველი გუნდი დათანხმდება კომპრომისს“. . .
laSa xomeriki 593 50 82 69 –
saqarTveloSi politikuri temperatura maRalia, procesebi dramatulad viTardeba, mwvave dapirispirebaa demonstrantebsa da samarTaldamcvelebs Soris, risi mizezic, opoziciis TqmiT, mmarTveli partiis gadawyvetilebaa evrokavSirSi gawevrianebis procesis SeCerebaze, aseve, gayalbebuli arCevnebi. Tavis mxriv, mmarTveli gundi acxadebs, rom saqarTvelos xelisuflebas ar uaruyvia evropuli kursi, opoziciis mizani ki qveynis qaosSi gaxveva da mTavrobis damxobaa. eqspertTa TqmiT, Tu mxareebi kompromiss ver SeZleben, SesaZloa, saqarTvelos saxelmwifoebrioba mniSvnelovnad dazaraldes. ase Tu ise, erTi ram cxadia – Cveni qveyana seriozuli gamowvevebis winaSea, aSS-ma saqarTvelos strategiuli partnioroba SeaCera, xolo evroparlamentma saqarTvelosTan mimarTebiT rezolucia miiRo, romlis erT-erTi rekomendacia axali arCevnebis Catarebaa. ra procesebi mimdinareobs qveyanaSi da ras unda velodoT? amis Taobaze gvesaubreba hamburgis universitetis politikur mecnierebaTa magistranti, saqarTvelos sazogadoebis saqmeTa institutis (jipa) doqtoranti, politologi koba jumuSaZe.
– rogor daaxasiaTebdiT saqarTveloSi mimdinare procesebs?
– faqtobrivad Cven vimyofebiT Rrma politikur krizisSi da es ar dawyebula mxolod 28 noembers, krizisi wlebia grZeldeba, gansakuTrebiT 2022 wlis Tebervlidan, rodesac daiwyo mniSvnelovani geopolitikuri movlena (ruseTis agresia ukrainis mimarT) da msoflio geopolitikur arenaze gamoikveTa, erTi mxriv, dasavleTi – liberaluri demokratia da, meore mxriv, kremlis avtokratiuli, diqtatoruli reJimi. Sesabamisad, patara qveynebs, magaliTad, saqarTvelos, qarTul politikur istebliSments, am SemTxvevaSi, mouwia mxaris arCeva. samwuxarod, Cveni istebliSmenti (konkretulad, ar vici, ra mizeziT) raRac momentSi, aRmoCnda kremlis gavlenis qveS da ganavrco is narativi, romelic modioda CrdiloeTidan, anu rodesac dadga dro, yvelafers darqmeoda Tavisi saxeli (ruseTi agresoria, ruseTi SeiWra ukrainaSi, ukraineli xalxi Cveni megobaria) – xelisuflebis mxridan naklebad ismoda aseTi mesijebi.
– xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebi acxadeben, rom pragmatul politikas awarmoeben, raTa rusuli agresia Tavidan aicilon. . .
– es aris iluzoruli mesijebi da getyviT, ratom: `qarTul ocnebas~ da, zogadad, Cvens xelisuflebas aranairad ar aqvs gavlena kremlis gadawyvetilebebze. kremli Tu gadawyvets, rom omi unda awarmoos romelime qveyanasTan, sul erTia, es iqneba moldova, ukraina Tu saqarTvelo, vercerTi partiuli funqcioneri aq, saqarTveloSi ver SeewinaaRmdegeba amas. gasagebia, rom diplomatia saWiroa ruseTTan, Tumca argaRizianebis politikiT mSvidobis SenarCuneba aris efemeruli warmodgena. rac unda mouCliqo kremls ena, Tu is gadawyvets, rom dRes saqarTveloSi Semovides, Semova. ase rom, es Cvenze araa damokidebuli. samwuxarod, mmarTveli partia aRmoCnda kremlis interesebis gamtarebeli, Sesabamisad, qveyanaSi, 2022 wlidan moyolebuli, politikuri krizisi TandaTan mwvavdeboda, pikuri xasiaTi ki miiRo 28 noembers, rodesac premier-ministrma irakli kobaxiZem Riad ganacxada, rom aCerebs gawevrianebis gaxsnaze molaparakebebs evrokavSiris struqturebTan. es aris erTgvari xelis aqneva, magidis ayiraveba, razec, bunebrivia, qarTvel xalxs hqonda mwvave reaqcia.
– vxedavT, rom qveyanaSi ar wydeba protesti, am mxriv, procesebis ra ganviTarebas elodebiT?
– procesebi kidev ufro gamwvavdeba. Tu mmarTvel gunds miaCnia, rom is yvelaze popularuli Zalaa qveyanaSi, maSin man unda gamoiyvanos krizisidan qveyana. ra igulisxmeba amaSi? igulisxmeba is, rom protestantebs aqvT sami ZiriTadi moTxovna: pirveli – gaTavisufldnen ukanonod dakavebuli adamianebi; meore – Catardes xelaxali arCevnebi. da gagrZeldes evropuli gza. Sesabamisad, Tu am moTxovnebs gaiTvaliswinebs `qarTuli ocneba~, krizisi Cacxreba, es Cveulebrivi, aprobirebuli meTodia evropul qveynebSi. . . arsebobs meore meTodi – kidev ufro meti zewola protestze da amiT problemis gadawyvetis mcdeloba, Tumca es Cven wagviyvans belarusiis gziT. ukve gvesmis terminebi – xalxis mteri, sazogadoebis mteri da a. S. rac kidev gaRrmavdeba da Rrma krizisSi SevalT.
– mmarTveli gundi acxadebs, rom opozicia destruqciuli Zalaa, romlis mizania saxelmwifo gadatrialeba. ras fiqrobT?
– opozicia rom garkveul Secdomebs uSvebs da `nacionaluri moZraoba~ komprometirebuli Zalaa, es faqtia da amaze agebs popularobas mmarTveli partia. mas unda iyos popularuli imiT, rom sxva cudia. Ees, ra Tqma unda, moazrovne politikosisTvis ar aris gamamarTlebeli sabuTi. . . Sesabamisad, xelisuflebis valdebulebas warmoadgens ara opoziciis gaSaveba, aramed konstituciur CarCoebSi darCena da am konstituciuri CarCoebis daweseba yvelasTvis.
– `saWiroa dialogis formati, aucilebelia kompromisebi, rom qveyana ar daingres~, – ganacxada eqspertma mamuka areSiZem, Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb. . .
– mxareebi Serigdebian im SemTxvevaSi, Tu prezidentis mediaciiT da opoziciis CarTulobiT mmarTveli gundi daTanxmdeba axali, vadamdeli arCevnebis daniSvnas. yvela sxva SemTxvevaSi, saprotesto muxti ar Cacxreba. Cven kargad viciT, Tu ra uRelqveS itanjeboda Cveni qveyana, es tkivili SemorCenilia. kremls surs axali sabWoeTis aRdgena, rasac am procesebiT xels uwyobs mmarTveli partia. Sesabamisad, amas aRar daTanxmdeba qarTveli xalxi.
– saqarTvelos prezidentma ganacxada, rom ar aRiarebs arsebul xelisuflebas da axal saparlamento arCevnebamde Tanamdebobas ar datovebs. . .
– 14 dekembers unda moxdes prezidentis arCeva xmosnebis mier da 29 dekembers – inauguracia, magram ramdenadac saqarTvelos xelisufleba gasulia konstituciuri CarCoebidan, ugulebelyofs 78-e muxls, protesti gagrZeldeba. protestis erT-erTi mizezi mixeil yavelaSvilis dasaxelebaa prezidentobis kandidatad. albaT mmarTvel gundSic moulodneli iyo yavelaSvlis prezidentad dasaxeleba. am SemTxvevaSi, ivaniSvilma gaakeTa aseTi arCevani. protestis mizezi esec aris. qarTvel xalxs ar axsovs istoriaSi, rom aseTi antidasavlurad ganwyobili adamiani yofiliyo prezidenti da jaris mTavarsardali, Sesabamisad, es muxtic qmnis am protests. 14 dekembers iqneba am protestis talRis piki. sasurvelia, rom yvelaferma mSvidobianad Caiaros, xelisuflebas Zalian unda protestis komprometireba, Tumca pirveli, vinc Zala gamoiyena, xelisufleba iyo, amitom ar unda ukvirdes, Tu moqalaqeebi gaaprotesteben Zaladobas.
– ramdenad mosalodnelia, saqarTvelos prezidenti gaxdes am protestis lideri da mis garSemo gaerTiandes politikuri speqtri?
– sxvaTa Soris, saqarTvelos prezidentma salome zurabiSvilma am xnis ganmavlobaSi iTava lideris funqcia, prezidenti ar aris arapopularuli axalgazrdebSi, Tumca yvelas SeiZleba ar moswondes. man gamoavlina potenciali, iyos erTgvari lideri. am protestis xibli imaSic mdgomareobs, rom politikuri partiebis liderebi ver dgebian protestis saTaveSi, radgan es aris absoluturi gulwrfeli protesti sazogadoebis, gansakuTrebiT axalgazrdebis CarTulobiT. Sesabamisad, prezidents SeuZlia amis gakeTeba. savaraudod, Camoyalibdeba protestis marTvis sabWo, romelic yoveldRiurad gaaxmovanebs gegmas, Tu ra SeiZleba mocemul dRes gaprotestdes da ratom.
– eqspertTa nawili acxadebs, rom oTxma opoziciurma platformam moaxdina am protestis privatizeba. maTive TqmiT, sxva partiebic unda CaerTon procesebSi. . .
– oTxi opoziciuri platforma imitom aqtiurobs, rom maT gadalaxes saarCevno barieri, Sesabamisad, am procesSi monawile adamianebis garkveuli nawili modis am partiebidan. ra Tqma unda, bevri partia unda iyos CarTuli, Tumca am oTx partias aqvs legitimuri ufleba, rom Tavisi interesebi hqondes, vinaidan isini arian prodasavluri partiebi. protesti imdenad gulwrfelia, rom es oTxi partia aRar Cans.
– sagareo sakiTxsac SevexoT, koleqtiurma dasavleTma (Tu ar CavTvliT ramdenime qveyanas) ar aRiara saqarTvelos arCevnebis legitimuroba. es risi maniSnebelia?
– es imis maniSnebelia, rom isini gamadidebeli SuSiT akvirdebian saqarTveloSi mimdinare movlenebs. CvenTan Tu vinmes hgonia, rom rogorc 2020 wels moxda (maSin ukrainis omi dawyebuli ar iyo), axlac partiebi Sevlen parlamentSi cdeba, msgavsi ram ar moxdeba, protesti ar Cacxreba. im dros mmarTvel partias ar hqonda kremlTan urTierTobis mzaoba, Sesabamisad, protestis talRa Cacxra, magram axla fiqsirdeba Ria mzaoba kremlTan urTierTobis. Tavis mxriv kremli dasavleTTan brZolaSia Sesuli. rogorc cnobilia, dasavleTi ar aRiarebs am arCevnebs da asec darCeba, sanqciebis paketebze aris saubari, kerZod, personalur sanqciebze da Tu xelisufleba am qveyanas gawiravs, saboloo jamSi, dauqvemdebarebs kremls, albaT am sanqciebis nawili iqneba uvizo mimosvlis SeCereba saqarTvelosTan, rac iqneba katastrofa qveynisTvis.
– Tqven uvizo mimosvla axseneT, niderlandebma mouwoda evrokavSirs, SeaCeros saqarTvelosTan uvizo mimosvla. . .
– es Tu moxda, savalalo iqneba Cveni qveynisTvis da damangreveli – TiToeuli CvenganisTvis. es niSnavs ruseTTan pirispir saqarTvelos marto datovebas da am SemTxvevaSi, ruseTi ara mxolod Semova samxedro nawilebiT, aramed Seecdeba samoqalaqo dapirispirebamde miiyvanos qveyana. vfiqrob, evropel liderebs eyofaT goniereba da sanqciebi iqneba mxolod personaluri, anu am krizisSi Semyvani adamianebi myavs mxedvelobaSi da amas ar eqneba qveynis dasjis xasiaTi.
– aSS-ma saqarTvelosTan strategiuli partnioroba SeaCera, es droebiTi gadawyvetilebaa?
– es damokidebulia imaze, Tu rogor ganviTardeba movlenebi saqarTveloSi. am etapze, amas SeCereba hqvia, Sesabamisad, isini wyveten yovelgvar mxardaWeras rogorc socialuri, ise ekonomikuri da samxedro kuTxiT. viciT, qarTuli jari rom gvyavs, swored amerikelebis damsaxurebaa, Sesabamisad, es yvelaferi SeCerebulia, am etapze. garda amisa, aSS-is senati ganixilavs imasac, rom Tu es xelisufleba darCeba mmarTvelobaSi, xels aiReben saqarTveloze, rac niSnavs, rom gadaerTvebian sxva ufro mniSvnelovan problemebze. am fonze, ufro mniSvnelovani problema ukrainaa. Tu saqarTvelo xels auqnevs amerikas, darCeba ruseTTan pirispir. saubaria, aseve, CineTze, aSS-isTvis nomer pirvel sagareo problemad CineTis mzardi ekonomika ganixileba, es cxadia, kidev ufro metad gaamwvavebs saqarTvelos urTierTobas amerikasTan.
– premier-ministrma irakli kobaxiZem ganacxada, rom is daamyarebs aSS-is axal adamianistraciasTan karg urTierTobas. . .
– mmarTvel partias imedi aqvs, rom trampi mova da saqarTvelos xelisuflebas mxars dauWers im politikur qmedebaSi, rasac aqamde hqonda adgili, Tumca amis albaToba naklebia, radgan trampi aris, zogadad, SeTanxmebis adamiani. is, pirvel rigSi, ukrainis movlenas gamoexmaureba (gadaWris Tu ar gadaWris, es sxva sakiTxia). Aaseve, arsebobs CineTis sakiTxi, Cveni xelisufleba CineTTan da `briksTan~ ganixilavs strategiul partniorobas. am bolo dros trampma axsena `briksis~ arsi da winaRoba amerikasTan SeuTanxmeblobis kuTxiT, Sesabamisad, es yvelaferi ver iqneba simbiozSi mmarTveli partiis politikasTan, romelic cdilobs aziur ekonomikur kavSirebSi gaerTianebas. trampis prioritetia CineTTan Tavisi Zalis demonstrireba da Tu Cven ufro axlos aRmovCndiT CineTTan vidre aSS-sTan, maSin trampis imedi tyuilad aqvs arsebul xelisuflebas.
– gverds ver avuvliT ukrainas, amJamad omis ra fazaa?
– axla poziciuri brZolebi mimdinareobs, germanelebi amas eZaxian – Abnutzungskrieg – omi resursebis amowurvamde, sanam mxareebi erTurTs bolomde ebrZvian, magram niSandobliv teritoriul an samxedro gamarjvebas vercerTi aRwevs. mokled, visac eyofa gamZleoba, rom am gamowvevebs bolomde gauZlos, is iqneba ZiriTadi nawilis wamRebi am omidan. Cven isic unda vTqvaT, ukrainas naklebi resursebi gaaCnia, Tumca mas dasavleTi hyavs gverdiT, ruseTis gverdiT ki dgas CrdiloeT korea, irani, romelTa resursebi ufro mwiria, vidre dasavleTis. dasavluri liberaluri manqana nela muSaobs, magram safuZvelianad. es omi dRes da xval ver dasruldeba. yvelaferi damokidebulia ara mxolod amerikaze, aramed evropazec. evropis lokomotivi qveyana germaniaa. iq xelisuflebis gardamavali periodia, TebervalSi unda gaimarTos arCevnebi da sabolood gadawydes germaniis pozicia ukrainasTan mimarTebiT. es yvelaferi axangrZlivebs oms, amitom rTulia imis Tqma, romeli fazisken midis sabolood es yvelaferi.
– dabolos, yoveli didi omis Semdeg yalibdeba axali msoflio wesrigi. saqarTvelo dasavleTis qolgis qveS rom aRmoCndes, xelisuflebam ra unda gaakeTos?
– unda mihyves konstituciis 78-e muxls, es aris mTavari amocana, rom saqarTvelo ar aRmoCndes izolaciaSi. ratom daiwyo ruseT-ukrainis omi? imitom, rom ruseTma igrZno – ukrainis saxiT uaxlovdeboda progresuli qveyana, aq CanasaxSive Canda liberaluri demokratiis niSnebi, nel-nela midioda korufciasTan brZola, moxda ukrainis asocireba evrokavSirTan, anu civilizacia uaxlovdeboda da maT avtokratias safrTxe eqmneboda. amitomac ruseTi aCens brWyalebs, mas ar awyobs ganviTareba, mas xels aZlevs derJavuli, imperialisturi Sexedulebis ganviTareba da amas sanam SeZlebs, gaakeTebs. Cven gviwevs bewvis xidze siaruli, gonivrulad, Tanmimdevrulad, rom sabolood isev ar aRmovCndeT, ramdenime aseuli wlis ganmavlobaSi, kremlis marwuxebSi.

