„ამ კონფიგურაციაში არის საძიებელი დამოუკიდებელი და სუვერენული საქართველოს მომავალი“
laSa xomeriki 593 50 82 69 –
demonstraciebi, urTierTdapirispireba dRevandeli saqarTvelos mware realobaa, rac, garkveulwilad, gamowveulia arCevnebis SedegebiTa da evrokavSirTan mimarTebiT xelisuflebis gancxadebiT. opoziciis TqmiT, gayalbebuli arCevnebi qveyanas yovelmxriv azaralebs, Tumca mmarTveli partia acxadebs, rom arCevnebi sanimuSod Catarda, xolo evrokavSirTan saqarTvelos daaxloebis procesi am gaerTianebam Tavad SeaCera. am krizisul situaciaSi saqarTvelosTvis mniSvnelovania ara mxolod mmarTveli gundisa da opoziciis miznebis garkveva, aramed dasavleTis verdiqti saqarTvelosTan mimarTebiT. dasavleTis saxelmwifoebis mxridan Tu gagrZelda saqarTvelos xelisuflebis araRiarebis procesi, es, cxadia, Cvens qveyanas mniSvnelovnad daazaralebs saSinao da sagareo politikis TvalsazrisiT. isic udavoa, rom Cveni qveynis mimarT zesaxelmwifoebs TavianTi interesebi amoZravebT… Tu rogor moagvarebs da gadawyvets xelisufleba am sakiTxebs, es mniSvnelovnad ganapirobebs saqarTveloSi progress an regress aTeulobiT wlis ganmavlobaSi. am da sxva aqtualur sakiTxebze gvesaubreba strategiuli kvlevebis xelmZRvaneli, politikis analitikosi vaJa beriZe.
– rogor SeafasebT saqarTveloSi mimdinare politikur movlenebs, Tundac uaxless – sami opoziciuri gaerTianebis deputatebs uflebamosileba SeuwydaT, parlamenti saxelisuflo darbazad mogvevlineba?
– rac Cvens qveyanaSi xdeba, mosalodneli iyo. sam aTeul welze metia, formalurad mainc, damoukideblebi varT da Cvenzec vrceldeba universaluri principi, rom imperiebis nangrevebze aRmocenebulma yvela qveyanam, makedonelis imperiis daSlidan moyolebuli, unda daamtkicos, rom suverenitetis da, zogadad, arsebobis Rirsia, rogorc damoukidebeli saxelmwifo. Tu gavixsenebT imdroindel faqtebs, mxolod ptolemidebis egviptem SeZlo ramdenadme xangrZlivi periodiT arseboba. asea sabWoTa kavSiris dacemis da kraxis Semdegac. baltiispireTis qveynebma moaswres da gaaRwies rusuli gavlenis arealidan, isargebles ra ruseTis dasustebiT, xolo danarCenebs, imaTac, visac saxelmwifoebriobis mravalsaukunovani istoria aqvs da imaTac, vinc, dRevandeli formiT sabWoTa kavSirSi Camoyalibda, unda daamtkicon, rom Tavisuflebis da suverenitetis Rirsebi arian. ra Tqma unda, maT Sorisaa saqarTveloc. Tu am prizmaSi SevxedavT mimdinare movlenebs, araferi moulodneli ar xdeba. saqarTvelo umZimesi problemebis winaSe dgas, seriozulia depopulaciis safrTxe – qveyana mosaxleobisgan icleba, maT Soris, Sromisunariani adamianebisgan, axalgazrdebisgan. teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgenis imedi, faqtobrivad, dakargulia. am mimarTulebiT dasavleTi efeqtianad ver dagvexmara, Sesabamisad, moqalaqeebis ganwyoba perspeqtivis da xvalindeli dRis mimarT, skeptikuri gaxda. bunebrivia, amas mohyva seriozuli politikuri bataliebi mmarTvel Zalasa da opozicias Soris, sadac erT mxaresaa araformaluri mmarTveloba, xolo meore mxares – is ybadaRebuli cxrawliani periodi, bevrisTvis avadmosagonari realoba. maSindeli faqtobrivi avtoritarizmi da dRevandeli nabijebi avtokratiisken iZleva im konkretikas, rac dRes gvaqvs.
– ramdenad mosalodnelia, rom opoziciasa da xelisuflebas Soris es xangrZlivi dapirispireba ufro mwvave fazaSi Sevides?
– amaze mwvave faza samoqalaqo omia. rom ara `trampis efeqti~, romelic jer gaurkvevelia, rogor aisaxeba saqarTvelos realobaze, ukve samoqalaqo omis realuri safrTxis winaSe vidgebodiT. Aaq aris ori Seurigebeli mxare, ori seriozuli Sida da gare Zala, mravalplastiani SreebiT gamagrebuli. aseT viTarebaSi samoqalaqo oms veraferi daudgeboda win. Aaxla ki, vnaxoT – mwvave fazaSi gadasvlac realuria da iZulebiTi zavic.
– viTareba rom ganimuxtos, bevrs gamosavlad arCevnebi miaCnia. . .… gamoiRebs ki Sedegs axali arCevnebi, ganimuxteba viTareba Aanu SeiZleba, gamosavlad miviCnioT arCevnebi?
– sadReisod, mocemul konkretul monakveTSi, arCevnebi gamosavali ar aris, radgan ar arsebobs saTanado saSinao da sagareo faqtorebi. dasavleTi jer ar gamorkveula, evrokavSiri Zveli inerciiT mieqaneba, ruseTi mravalmniSvnelovnad dums da SigadaSig antiopoziciuri gancxadebebi keTdeba. arada, rogorc erTi wlis winandel erT-erT interviuSi mivuTiTe, seriozul berketebs flobs rogorc xelisuflebaze, ise opoziciaze zemoqmedebisTvis. antirusuli ritorika ar gamoricxavs ruseTisTvis sasargeblo saqmis keTebas. sxva mniSvnelovani faqtori ceskos mimarT undoblobaa da jerjerobiT, erTpartiuli parlamentis pirobebSi, ar arsebobs misi gadakompleqtebis realuri SesaZlebloba, rac mas saTanado ndobiT aRWuravda, saarCevno administraciis gareSe ki, mogexsenebaT, arCevnebs veravin Cagvitarebs.
– am gamwvavebuli situaciis daregulirebis saSualebad dialogi xelisuflebasa da opozicias Soris, aqciebis monawileTa CarTulobiT, ramdenad SesaZlebelia da ufro metic, aucilebeli?
– dilogi aucilebelia, misi dawyeba saSuri saqmea, Tumca situacias Tu SevxedavT aseTi dialogisTvis arc xelisuflebaa mzad da arc opozicia. ra Tqma unda, aqciebis monawileTa CarTuloba aseT dialogSi aucilebelia da am dialogs ufro realurs ver gaxdis lamis pacifisturi mowodebebi opoziciis gaerTianebaze, romelic, faqtobrivad, erTazrianobis damkvidrebas isaxavs miznad. oRond ar Cans, es erTi azri saidan da visgan unda modiodes – meliasgan, gvaramiasgan, xazaraZisgan, bokuCavasgan, gaxariasgan Tu klinikaSi myofi patimari saakaSvilisgan. arada, am yvela subieqtma gauSva momenti, roca calke da damoukideblad unda daewyo seriozuli opoziciuri politikuri Zalis mSenebloba. amis Sansi ufro hqondaT gaxarias da xazaraZes, magram maT miznad daisaxes SeuZlebeli – absoluturad gansxvavebuli xedvis, mentalitetisa da politikuri biografiis mqone adamianebis erToba SeerTebuli Statebidan da evrokavSiridan momavali politikuri gzavnilebis safuZvelze. es ararealuri iyo da CixiTac damTavrda. Cveni politikuri opoziciis mTavari problema is gaxlavT, rom ar icnoben Cvenive xalxis eTnofsiqologias, ganwyobebs. es, vTqvaT, potomakis napirebze da briuselSi rom ar ician, ar aris gasakviri, magram amaTi axlomxedveloba, ubralod, damazianebelia da qveynis avtoritarizmisken svlas uwyobs xels. amis gaTvaliswinebiT da am fonze, dialogisTvis winapirobebi ar arsebobs.
– xSirad ismis mowodeba, rom qarTulma sazogadoebam evropuli arCevani unda daicvas da gadaarCinos, magram sakiTxavia, rogor, ra gziT?
– evropuli arCevani sruliad saqarTvelos arCevania da igi dResac ucvlelia. Aaxla am arCevanis Selamazeba, RirsebiT da keTildReobiT evropisken svliT Canacvleba SeiZleba, magram araefeqturi da bundovania. me eWvi ar mepareba, rom biZina ivaniSvilsac da `qarTuli ocnebis~ liderebsac evrokavSirSi qveynis gawevrianeba surT, Tumca Znelia endo partniorebs da Suamavlebs, saqarTveloSi maTi saelCoebis saxiT, rodesac `ocnebis~ damfuZnebels sakuTar aqtivebze wvdomas uzRudaven da ase xdeba, rogorc Tavad ambobs, 2008 wlidan. aqac Cveni eTnofsiqologiis ucodinroba da Cvendami undobloba gamosWvivis. diax, am Cvens arCevans dacva unda da aq politikurma partiebma, Cvens mediasTan erTad, ufro seriozuli roli unda Seasrulon. evropis meqanikurad uarmyofeli adamianebis raodenoba am qveyanaSi uaRresad mcirea.
– rogor fiqrobT, qarTuli samoqalaqo sazogadoeba amJamad ganviTarebis ra fazaSia da ras miiCnevT umTavresad, rom igi Camoyalibdes?
– samoqalaqo sazogadoeba aucilebelia Cveni qveynis saimedo da keTildReobiT gamorCeuli momavlis uzrunvelsayofad, Tumca qarTuli samoqalaqo seqtori ver iqca sazogadoebis winsvlis qmediT instrumentad. mravali aTasi organizaciidan, realurad, sxvadasxva dros, mxolod ramdenimes hqonda soliduri dafinanseba da realurad gakeTebuli saqmeebis portfeli. ra Tqma unda, am seqtoris ZiriTadi damfinansebeli amerikuli da evropuli fondebi iyvnen da maTi mizani iyo cxadi da naTeli – mxari daeWiraT postsabWoTa sivrceSi axali sazogadoebriv-politikuri urTierTobebis Camoyalibebisa da ekonomikis ganviTarebisTvis, ra Tqma unda, dasavluri modelebis mixedviT. es Cvens erovnul interesebsac eTanadeboda da qarTuli sazogadoebac keTilganwyobili iyo am seqtoris mimarT, Tumca am saqmianobis realuri Sedegebi xelSesaxebi ar aRmoCnda sadReisod, radgan bevri milioni, faqtobrivad, uyairaTod da aramiznobrivad daixarja, rom araferi vTqvaT masStaburi korufciis dasaSvebobaze, rasac TeTri saxlis dRevandeli patroni eWvobs.
– xelisuflebas ar SerCeba aqciis monawileTa da Jurnalistebis devna-Seviwroeba – acxadeben opoziciis da arasamTavrobo organizaciebis warmomadgenlebi, Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb. . .
– vidre xelisuflebis da samarTaldamcavebis gadacdomebze visaubrebdeT, da aseTebi iyo, manamde unda vTqvaT, rom protestis pirvel xanebSi aqciis monawileTa qmedebebi mSvidobiani xasiaTisgan Sors iyo. Tu politikuri procesi mis mxardamWerebsa da organizatorebs Cafiqrebuli hqondaT rogorc revoluciuri scenaris nawili, maSin momitingeTa radikalizmi, romelic, realurad, eqstremizmis mijnasTan SeCerda, gasagebia da amas unda mohyoloda xelisuflebis Secvla, an axali arCevnebis daniSvna. ase ar moxda da amis gaTvaliswinebiT, xelisuflebis pasuxi demonstrantebis agresiul qcevebze ukve sxva kvalifikaciiT fasdeba. revolucias, megobrebo, Tavisi kanonebi aqvs, xolo masobriv, gangrZobad, mSvidobian protests – Tavisi da am qveyanas aqvs aseTi protestis gamocdileba rogorc sabWoTa periodSi, ise SevardnaZisa da saakaSvilis xelisuflebebis winaaRmdeg. arc politikuri partiebisa da politikosebis dabali reitingis gamo ukan gadaweva da aqciis monawileTa win wamoweva, romelTa Soris axalgazrdebi da xelovanebi sWarboben, mgonia swori. ufro metic, mcdari mgonia. amaze, Tavis droze, cnobilma mecnierma ortega i gasetim mkafiod Tqva: ar arsebobs damoukidebeli axalgazrduli moZraoba, ar arsebobs damoukidebeli protesti. adre Tu gvian, aseTi protesti politikosebis gavlenas daeqvemdebareba, Tundac am protestis mier wamoweuli adamianebis meSveobiT. Sesabamisad, aucilebelia am aqciebis swrafi transformacia da axali taqtikis SemuSaveba politikur procesebSi sazogadoebis efeqtiani monawileobisTvis. arada, Cven sul ufro metad araadekvatur nabijebs vxedavT opoziciis mxridan. Cemi, rogorc erTi moqalaqis da mTeli rigi sxva adamianebis mowodeba – opozicia parlamentSi Sesuliyo da es tribunac gamoeyenebina xelisuflebis winaaRmdeg sazogadoebis darazmvisTvis, ignorirebul iqna. aha, mandatebic gauqmebulia da siebic Caxsnilia, gaxarias garda. . . aqedan gamomdinare, aqcenti keTdeba `qarTuli ocnebis~ da biZina ivaniSvilis diskreditaciaze, Semdgom Zlier sanqciebze da ase Semdeg. . . es wabiZgeba arastabilurobisken qveynis suverenitets azianebs da Cemi azriT, regionSi ruseTis interesebis wisqvilze asxams wyals. naxeT, axlaxan trampma ra Tqva? – siriaSi viTarebas TurqeTis da erdoRanis wyalobiT gavakontrolebo. emand, romelime zedamxedveli Cvenc ar dagviniSnos. . .
– sagareo sakiTxsac SevexoT, Cveni qveynis realobaze rogor aisaxeba `trampis efeqti~ amJamad da raa mosalodneli momavalSi?
– Cveni opoziciuri analitikuri wreebi, vfiqrob, arasworad afaseben trampis nabijebs. is araefeqturs da dromoWmuls imitom ki ar angrevs, rom amerika daasustos da putinis saamebeli saqmeebi gaakeTos, mas unda, rom amerika isev diadi iyos. trampizmi igive globalizmia, oRond ara amerikis mTel msoflioSi hegemonobaze dafuZnebuli, aramed mizidulobis centrebs Soris gavlenebisaTvis brZolaze, mediatorobisa da mokarnaxeobis meSveobiT, msoflioSi mimdinare procesebis gakontrolebiT. trampi revolucioneria da Sesabamisad, aSS-Si movlenaTa ganviTareba araprognozirebadi xdeba. SeniSnavdiT, saxelmwifo mdivan rubios gancxadebas, romelic iohanesburgSi G20-is Sexvedraze ar miemgzavreba, radgan samxreT afrika `cud saqmeebSia~ SemCneuli… saqarTveloze es yvelaferi, udavod, aisaxeba da Tu rogor, es pirdapiraa damokidebuli xelisuflebaze, opoziciasa da TiToeul Cvenganze, ramdenad aqtiurebi viqnebiT qveynis sagareo politikuri kursis gansazRvrisas da es araa lamazi fraza.
– omis ra fazaa axla ukrainaSi da am mxriv trampis gegmaze ruseT-ukrainis omTan dakavSirebiT ra SeiZleba iTqvas?
– tramps Zalian unda, ukrainaSi omi daamTavros, magram orive mxridan, ruseTi iqneba es Tu ukraina, imdeni wiTeli xazia, amis gakeTeba SeuZlebeli Cans. ubralod, CamovTvaloT wiTeli xazebis ramdenime aspeqti – yirimi da misi bedi, yirimamde misasvleli saxmeleTo magistralis kontroli, miwisa da wiaRiseulis, Zvirfasi da iSviaTi liTonebis sabadoebis kontroli, doneckisa da luganskis `saxalxo respublikebis~ momavali (maT teritoriazea, swored, didwilad, mniSvnelovani resursebi) da Zalian sagulisxmo – natoSi ukrainis gawevrianebis dauSvebloba da ase Semdeg. . .
– dabolos, saqarTvelo, rogorc derefani, anu misi mTavari geopolitikuri daniSnuleba axali msoflio wesrigis formirebis procesSi rogor yalibdeba, ra gamowvevebis winaSea Cveni qveyana?
– sami aTeuli saukunea, saqarTvelo gamowvevebis winaSea, zogjer gvqonia gacilebiT fataluric, vidre dRevandelia. derefani Cveni istoriuli benefitia, magram didi safrTxec, – misi gakontroleba dResac bevrs surs. me xSirad miyvars, am da amdagvar situaciebTan mimarTebaSi, bismarkis moSvelieba – `yvelaze kargi politika diplomatiaSi, meryeobis politikaa~. marTlac, asea da xSirad, meryeoba uprincipobas ar niSnavs.
`nacarqeqia~ gavixsenoT – roca devebi ZiZgilaoben, moxerxebulad unda gavideT-gamovideT, rasac, kacma rom Tqvas, ocdaaTi saukunea, vaxerxebT. rac Seexeba axal msoflio wesrigs da misi formirebis procesSi Cvens beds, igi trampis nabijebis efeqtianobaze iqneba damokidebuli, masTan mimarTebaSi evrokavSiris bedze, `Cinuri saswaulis~ perspeqtivaze, gamoRviZebuli indoeTis momaval pretenziebsa da ruseTTan Cveni urTierTobis mogvarebaze mis daSlamde, rogorc amas CvenTan bevri mesiasaviT elis da rasac piradad me, xiluli xuTi aTeuli wlis ganmavlobaSi, realurad ar miviCnev. aqve, TurqeTTan Cveni urTierTobebis Sinaarsze, `didi Turanis~ perspeqtivaze – ar daviviwyoT, sadReisod dasavleTisgan Serisxuli, „mTvlemare lomi~ – iranic. am konfiguraciaSi aris saZiebeli damoukidebeli da suverenuli saqarTvelos momavali. unda gvaxsovdes, rom mkveTri moZraobebi, maT Soris, sagareo-politikuri veqtoris wamdauwum cvla, CvenTvis saxifaToa.
