დავით ჩხარტიშვილი: სიმართლისთვის თვალის გასწორებით გავიდეთ სამშვიდობოს
xatia iaSvili 27 48 93 –
gTavazobT intervius publicist daviT CxartiSvilTan, romelic saubrobs TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebze, politikur krizisze, romelic dRes fesvgadgmulia qveyanaSi
– rogor SeafasebdiT arCevnebis Sedegs?
– rogorc gamafrTxilebels mmarTveli gundisTvis, formaluri gamarjvebis miuxedavad da katastrofuls – aWaris masStabiT. sxvaTa Soris, araerTxel miTqvams da delikaturad miminiSnebia kidec Tqveni gazeTiTac, centraluri `qarTuli ocnebisTvis~ im sistemur xarvezebze da sakadro gadacdomebze, ramac am Sedegamde miiyvana Tundac aWaris regionis `qarTuli ocneba~. mogexsenebaT, aqtiuri brZola ar amirCevia, saerTod ganveride politikur vels, radganac aqeT `qarTuli ocneba~ iyo, visTvisac yvela teqnikuri naklis da Secdomebis kaskadis miuxedavad, ar msurda xelis SeSla, iqiT ki `nacionalebi~ da maTTan dakavSirebuli Zalebi. ar mindoda, vinmes daebralebina CemTvis, rom `nacionalebis~, an Tundac maTze parazitebad mitmasnili Zalebis saqmes vakeTebdi. miT ufro, rom esoden polarizebul atmosferoSi dids verafers gaxdebi martokaci im momentamde mainc, sanam aseTi Sedegi dadgeboda, yvela TvalnaTliv dainaxavda xarvezebs da moralurad mzad iqneboda fundamenturi cvlilebebisaTvis. sworad gamigeT, arc vamtyuneb aravis! rTulia, roca procesSi xar Cabmuli, misi Signidan danaxva da koreqcia, rodesac socialuri mecnierebebis elementaruli sabaziso codna ar gagaCnia, miT ufro Cvennair, uamrav narativSi gaxveul erSi. situacias ufro arTulebs isic, rom qarTvelebma ganvvleT urTulesi gza nacionalisturi Trobidan liberalur eiforiamde, ris gamoc problemebis danaxva ufro Wirs da mxolod axla, savalalo Sedegebis dadgomisas, imedia, mogvecema meti goni, SesaZlebloba – Secdomebis keTilsindisieri inventarizaciiTa da simarTlisTvis Tvalis gasworebiT gavideT samSvidobos. mokled, amitom avirCie strategiuli avtonomiis reJimi am etapze. vTvli, rom moqalaqeobrivi vali pirnaTlad movixade, rac SemeZlo, gavakeTe, Tanac ise, rom saerTo saqme ar damezianebina. samwuxaroa, rom yru kedels Sevejaxe. SeiZleboda es Sedegi ar damdgariyo, aWaraSi mainc rom gaeTvaliswinebinaT Cemi pozicia. miiRes is, rac wlebia Teses – `nacionalebis~ eleqtorati gaaTmagebulia 2012 welTan SedarebiT. es katastrofaa, Tu, ra Tqma unda, saswrafod ar gamosworda midgomebi. unda gadaxalisdes kadrebi da daidos axali, unikaluri proeqtebi. arc meti, arc naklebi, `nacionalebisTvis~ xelisuflebis sruli gadabarebis startia arsebuli status-kvo. TumcaRa optimisti var da SesaZleblobebis fanjarasac vxedav baTumisTvis am konfiguraciiTac. swored aseTi momentebisTvis mqonda SemuSavebuli Tavis droze `baTumuri qartia~, romelic dRemde, rogorc ideis profanacia, baTumis meriis foieSi devs da imedia, dReidan mainc sruli simZlavriT amuSavdeba misi postulatebi, romlebzec, sxvaTa Soris, Tavis droze, anu 2013 wels mTeli baTumi SeTanxmda, maT Soris `nacmoZraobac~. samwuxaroa, magram ase icis marTvis elementaruli unarebis arqonam, arsaidan umaRles Tanamdebobebze da sxvis naSromze Tu nabrZolze wamoskupebam morodioris fsiqologiiT. umaRles Tanamdebobebze Tu warmomadgenlobiT organoebSi rom medrove, uunaro, uavtoriteto `plakatis gamkvrelis~ Tvalsawieris donis xalxi dainiSneba, televiziaSic ar geyoleba iseTi qarizmatuli kadri, vinc Rirseul oponirebas gauwevs `general~ nacs da mxolod wera-kiTxvis ucodinari koordinatorebis imedad iqnebi, bunebrivia, im savalalo Sedegs miiReb, rac aWaraSi daido arCeuli algoriTmis Sesabamisad.
– konkretul mizezad mainc ras daasaxelebdiT?
– uamravi SemTxveviTi faqtori: diversiebi, uvicoba, banaluri siRore, nepotizmi da umaqnisi pirovnebebia aq gadaxlarTuli. aseT Sedegs, subieqturTan erTad, Tavisi obieqturi mizezebic gaaCnia. 2012 wels didwilad ekleqturi msoflmxedvelobis teqnokratebma xom daamarcxes ideokratebi? hoda, am teqnokratebma eseni ki CamoaSores politikur vels, magram swored rom maTi, anu `nacionalebis~ ideologiiT SeiaraRdnen. Sesabamisad, `qarTuli ocnebis~ kari Ria darCa miSistebisTvisac. maTTan erTad ki, radganac filtri aRar arsebobda, aseT amorful warmonaqmnSi odiozuri aslanistebi da zogadad, `midi-modi~ medrove momxveWeli elementebic gamravldnen. am ruxma masam maleve dajabna aqauri `qarTuli ocnebis~ jansaRi nawili, romelic an gadamales, anda sulac gaaZeves, zogma ki ubralod, gaCumeba arCia – `verafers SevcvliTo~. mokled, birTvi Camoyalibda iseTi adamianebisgan, visTvisac principebi, saxeli, raime Rirebulis Seneba measexarisxovani iyo, Tavis droze miSasTanac da aslanTanac rom mliqvnelobiTa da fulis keTebiT gamoirCeodnen. aqedan gamomdinare, mag xalxis miSistebad da aslanistebad moxsenieba pirobiTia, radgan iqac ki, wina cxovrebebSi, aseTive uvargisi da jibeze orientirebulebi iyvnen, ubralod sxva etiketiT gvevlinebodnen. mereda, prozelitizmis fenomeni ki mogexsenebaT, bevrad ufro dogmatikosebi xdebian, rogorc ki samoss icvlian, axali rwmenis viwro da ufro agresiul doqtriniorebad gvevlinebian, vidre isini, vinc daibadnen mag religiis wiaRSi. maqsimumi, rac aseTi ingredientebidan gamovidoda, isaa, rac davinaxeT – droebiTi xuxula raRacis winaaRmdeg, magram ara ramis asaSeneblad. drom da eroziam Tavisi gaakeTa am 9 wlis ganmavlobaSi da xelT gvaqvs katastrofa, gansakuTrebiT ki aWaraSi, radganac aq bevrad ufro miSvebuli iyo situacia, vidre danarCen sqarTveloSi. Tavidanve, aqac sworeba ar xdeboda ideaze. yvela pirvel pirs mohyavda ara TanamebrZoli, radganac Tavad ar ubrZolia, ara Tanamoazre, radganac sakuTari idea ar gaaCnda, aramed megobari an naTesavi, visac icnobda Tavisi wridan da ara sazogado cxovrebidan, radganac 2012-amde sazogadoebrivi cxovreba ar gaaCnda, miT ufro, arc sazogado sikeTeebi uTesia. maSasadame, rodesac midioda erTi pirveli piri, rCeboda misi daniSnuli xalxi upatronod. maT nel-nela anacvlebdnen momdevnos kadrebiT da aRaravin kiTxulobda im winare eSelonis beds. esenic xmas ar iRebdnen, an saxlSi midiodnen, anda `miSistur~ partiebSi wevriandebodnen, radganac Tavis droze, analogiurad nepotizmis wyalobiT movidnen da ara antimiSisturi ideisa Tu brZolis Sedegad, mere ki, momdevnoebi sargeblobdnen `qarTuli ocnebis~ mandatiT, Semdegis mosvlamde. am dros ki, rogorc xvdebiT arc pirvelebi, arc meoreni, arc mesameni Tu meoTxeni, sinamdvileSi `qarTuli ocnebas~ rogorc ideas, damsaxurebas, codnas da mamuliSvilobas ar warmoadgendnen. zogi Tavis droze uwesobis gamo iyo gagdebuli `nacionalebidan~, zogi profesiulad Seusabamo iyo, zogma ki wera-kiTxvac ar icoda. swored, am faqtorTa erTobliobam migviyvana dRes aseT viTarebamde. wlebia, erTi da igive xdeba, erT wreze vtrialebT da erTi da igive problemis winaSe vdgavarT. swored rom aseTma umsgavsobam gamoiwvia is, rom `nacionaluri moZraobis~ eleqtorati 2012 welTan SedarebiT gaaTmagda, risi gamosworeba piradad CemTvis Rirsebis sakiTxia, radganac yvelaferi gavwire Tavis droze, rom `miSizmi~ rogorc fenomeni da zogadad, seni qarTuli saxelmwifosTvis, gamenadgurebina. warmoidgineT, imdenad sZuldaT baTumlebs `nacebi~, rom iseT groteskul personaJs rogoric murman dumbaZea, misces xma 2012 wels – oRond isini arao. . . da dRes, igive xalxma uari uTxra ukve `qarTuli ocnebas~. dameTanxmebiT, saocari niWi unda, rom aqamde miiyvano saqme, ufro sworad ki uniWoba. xalxi bevrs gapatiebs, magram ara TvalebSi nacris Seyras da momxveWelobas, miT ufro – baTumSi, sadac sxva regionebTan SedarebiT gamarTuli institutebi da akademiuri media arsebobs Tundac Tqveni, `aWara-ps~-is da `baTumelebis~ saxiT. aseve, TviTmmarTvelobis didi tradicia gagvaCnia. SokSia xalxi imis gamo, rac moxda. jer dums, magram vgoneb, maleve, am yvelaferze imaze meti alaparakdeba, vidre warmogidgeniaT, gansakuTrebiT, `qarTuli ocnebis~ is wevrebi, vinc ubralod, gadaaCoCes. mTel am cxrawlian periodSi, xelwerad iqca lamis, es mankieri sakadro politika, sadac winsvlis mTavar kriteriumad regionis pirveli pirebis suraTebis `daSeareba~, sajaro maamebloba da gulebis wera gaxldaT.
– daTo, Zalian amuqebT viTarebas, aseT qcevas ra axsna aqvs?
– es elementarulia wesieri, patrioti da racionaluri gonisTvis, visac unda lamaz qalaqSi da qveyanaSi cxovreba da ara am fsiqotipis xalxisTvis, qalaqi – sakuTari yana, qveyana ki boseli rom hgonia. Tavidanve, ivaniSvilma qimera Seqmna – deideologizirebuli, ekleqtikuri gaerTianeba – xazgasmiT aRvniSnav, iZulebuli iyo im forsmaJorul viTarebaSi; amiT uamravma SemTxveviTma personam, momxveWelma, medrovem da laqiam isargebla. Semdeg, rodesac regionebSi da saSualo rgolebSi am xalxma Caigdo xelSi sadaveebi, daiwyes msgavsi personaJebis mozidvac. msgavsi msgavsTan midiso, xom gagigiaT? ase ikvreba wrec! Tanac XXI saukunea, postmodernistul samyaroSi varT, romelSic sazogadoebriv azrs qmnian mediajgufebi. televiziebi da piari ki amaT ar aqvT. rac aqvT, magaliTad `postvs~ saxiT, mas Zalze mcire finansuri resursi gaaCnia da erTi cicqnaa, TumcaRa, udavod, niWieri koleqtivi hyavT, `imedi~ ki, formaluri loialurobis miuxedavad, arsiT `qarTuli ocnebis~ namdvilad araa. SeadareT axla es `xma mRaRadeblisa udabnosa Sina~ miSisturi televiziebis gunds, rogor sinqronulad pedalireben `qarTuli ocnebisTvis~ wamgebian Temebs, zemoqmedebis teqnologiebis ra siRrmiseuli codniTa da neoliberaluri ideologiis agresiuli indoqtrinaciiT arian dakavebulni da naTeli iqneba yvelasaTvis, rom midis monstrebis brZola moyvarulTa winaaRmdeg.
– Tavis droze ivaniSvili malavda sakuTar saqvelmoqmedo saqmeebs da ar miaCnda gapiareba normalur, saR moqmedebad. `qarTuli ocneba~ axlac ase Tvlis, miaCnia, rom saqme Tavadaa piari.
– `qarTuli ocnebis~ e.w. piari sabavSo baRia imasTan SedarebiT, Tu ra simZlavreebs awydebian maTgan. didwilad or-sam-kvirian treninggavlil glamurul gogonebzea mindobili es strategiulad mniSvnelovani saqme. am kontingentma ar icis saerTaSoriso dRis wesrigi, arc socialuri konteqsti, arc istoriuli qveteqsti da kidev bevri iseTi ram, ris dasaxelebisganac Tavs Sevikavebdi. piari mliqvneloba hgoniaT da ara specifikuri sagnebis codna. Tanac, xSirad iq SegnebiT `miSistebi~ xvdebian, rac saqmianobazec isaxeba. Tvalsawieri da erudicia friad viwro aqvT, rogorc wesi, es zogadqarTuli problemacaa. gulwrfelad hgoniaT, rom feisbukis gverdze arapopularuli, uistorio, uavtoriteto, uunaro Cinosnebis saqmianobaze informaciis atvirTviT did saqmes ukeTeben `qarTuli ocnebas~, qalaqs, regions Tu qveyanas. arada, ukuefeqts aRweven. diskreditacia xdeba ukve imis gamo, rom esa Tu is, nepotizmis Sedegad daniSnuli piri igivdeba ama Tu im institutTan da `qarTul ocnebasTan~ (Tu biZina ivaniSvilTan), romlis avtoriteti – gamoxra am kontingentma, miT ufro aWaraSi, patara baTumSi, sadac yvelam yvelaferi viciT, vin saidan da ra siqveleebis, ufro sworad ki uqvelobis wyalobiT miiRo esa Tu is adgili.
– rac propagandas da e.w. piars Seexeba, es gasagebia, gindaT TqvaT, rom mediasaSualebebi ver gadaibires, Tqven amas xvdebiT, xelisuflebaSi ki vera, sad aris problema?
– mase martivadac araa saqme, `nacebma~ da masTan dakavSirebulma Zalebma moaxerxes da `qarTuli ocneba~ ideologiur xafangSi moaqcies, situaciaSi, romelSic maT mtkiceba uwevT im saerTaSoriso ZalebisTvis, vinc patronobs da Tavis droze moiyvana xelisuflebaSi saakaSvili, rom garkveul sakiTxebSi ufro metad `miSistebi~ arian. esaa markeri mag ZalebisTvis da Tu risi, amis Tqmisganac am etapze Tavs Sevikaveb. erTsRa aRvniSnav, rom RaribaSvili uSedegod cdilobs mojadoebuli wridan gamosvlas. gamosavali mxolod erTia, SiSi unda davZlioT mTelma erma da am `miSisturi~ kliSeebis msxvreva daviwyoT. unda gaviTavisoT, rom dRes 2003 weli araa, Seicvala saerTaSoriso mdgomareoba da am yvelafers emociuri safuZveli udevs, inercia SemorCa da ara realuri sarCuli. axla, rogorc arasodes, sWirdeba strategiuli avtonomia saqarTvelos! Tu gaacnobierebs amas `qarTuli ocneba~ da sapilote proeqtad jer aWaraSi Tu mixedavs katastroful sakadro politikas, maSin momavali misia. arada, ukve Semdeg arCevnebze aWaris srulad `nacebze~ gadabareba mouwevT.
– ras gulisxmobT strategiul avtonomiaSi?
– didi potencialis, tradiciis qveyana varT da windauxedavad, dekadebis win modur trendebze mibaZviT neoliberalur balagnad vaqcieT is. sasaTbure pirobebi SevuqmeniT yvelafers, rac maradiul da universalur faseulobebTan konfliqtSi modis fundamentur doneebze. gemblingi, prostitucia, trefikingi, narkomania – ai, ra asociacia uCndeba dRes msoflios saqarTvelos saxelis gagonebaze, esaa Cveni prioriteti doqtrinis doneze da nu vityuebT Tavs, rom sxvani varT. presa da literaturaa sarke yofierebis, martivad gadaamowmebT da gamkicxavT, Tu rames vamateb, magram ver moxdeba ase. aiReT sul ramdenime dekadis winandeli presa Tu nawarmoebebi qarTvelebze, dRevandel ucxour presasa da literaturas gadaxedeT, SeadareT. TvalSisacemi degradaciaa qarTveli kacis suraT-xatisa. ki viyaviT namdvilad saqebarni, magram warsuls Cabarda mdidari, amaRlebuli, stumarTmoyvareobiT gamorCeuli qveyana. 700 aTasi socialurad daucveli gvyavs. milionamde moqalaqe gasulia qveynidan. 30-miliardiani valis mqone saxelmwifos xelisufleba adekvaturad ver afasebs gamowvevebs da taS-fandurSi xarjavs saSviliSvilo sesxs. raa es, Tu ara `nadimi Savi Wiris dros~?! dRes `miSizmiTaa~ gaJRenTili saqarTvelo, romelsac ideologiur doneze `qarTuli ocneba~ verafers upirispirebs.