პოლიტიკაში მესამე ძალის შესაქმნელად მოვიდნენ…
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2023 wlis miwuruli saqarTvelosTvis mravalmxriv mniSvnelovani iqneba rogorc saSinao, ise sagareo politikis TvalsazrisiT: gairkveva, mieniWeba Tu ara saqarTvelos kandidatis statusi, anu aRmovCndebiT dasavleTis qolgis qveS, Tu qveyana kvlav urTierTdapirispirebis reJimSi darCeba. jerjerobiT, kvlav mZafrdeba mtroba xelisuflebasa da opozicias Soris, drodadro qveynis prezident salome zurabiSvils uaxloes xanebSi gakeTebuli gancxadebis gamo mmarTveli partia akritikebs, aRarafers vambob `nacmoZraobaSi~ Seqmnil mdgomareobaze. mokled, yvela politikuri Zala Tavis xmaze mReris da duRilic matulobs. mainc, rogoria dRes realoba, ra aris is aspeqtebi da orientiri, romelic uTuod unda davinaxoT, rom progresis gzaze SevdgeT. amis Taobaze bsu-is ekonomikis magistrants da amavdroulad `lelo saqarTvelosTvis~ baTumis organizaciis erT-erT lider arCil beriZes vesaubrebiT.
– daviwyoT umTavresiT: xelisuflebis wevrebi acxadeben, rom 12-punqtiani evropuli rekomendaciebis Sesasruleblad yvelaferi keTdeba da am mxriv opoziciis SeniSvnebi araadekvaturi da xSir SemTxvevaSi qveynisTvis damazianebelia…
– 12-punqtiani rekomendaciebis Sesrulebis procesi ar aris gamWvirvale, masSi sazogadoebis CarTuloba Zalian mcirea. xelisufleba ar esaubreba sazogadoebas. rekomendaciebis Sesrulebis monitorings sxvadasxva arasamTavrobo organizacia axorcielebs. Ria sazogadoebis fondis kvlevas gavecani, sadac Zalian naTlad Cans, rom xelisufleba rigi mimarTulebiT warmatebiT muSaobs, magram sadac misi Zalauflebis Semcirebis saSiSroebas xedavs, is punqtebi, metwilad, Seusrulebeli rCeba, fundamenturi cvlileba ar aris. metic, bolo periodSi xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebis antidasavluri ritorika Zalian did safrTxes uqmnis evrokavSiris wevrobis kandidatis statusis miRebas da Cvens momavals. gancda mrCeba, rom `qarTul ocnebas~ kandidatis statusis miReba ar surs, radgan masSi xedavs safrTxes, rom Semcirdeba misi gavlena sasamarTloze da mouwevs avtoritarizmisken ltolvaze uari Tqvas. amitom mzad aris, qveynis sagareo kursi Secvalos, oRondac Zalaufleba SeinarCunos.
– xelisufleba acxadebs, rom yvelafers gaakeTebs kandidatis statusis misaRebad da am mxriv opoziciis SeniSvnebi araadekvaturia, ras fiqrobT?
– xelisufleba dRes `strategiuli moTminebis~ principiT moqmedebs (rogorc TviTon amboben), rac, ZiriTadad, umoqmedobiT da SeguebiT gamoixateba. aranairi reagireba – kadirovelebis saqarTveloSi Semosvlaze, ruseTis gavleniani pirebis axloblebis qorwilis saqarTveloSi gadaxdaze. . . amas emateba aqciebze xalxis daWera, gamoxatvis Tavisuflebis SezRudva, mediis diskreditacia da a.S. araTu yvelafris gakeTebaa kandidatis statusis miRebisTvis, piriqiT, ganzrax, mavnebluri qmedebebia, rac kandidatis statusis miRebis Sansebs amcirebs.
– ruseTma saqarTvelosTan aRadgina sahaero mimosvla, es, garkveulwilad, kandidatis statusis CasaSlelad gakeTda -acxadeben analitikosebi, Tqveni azriT, asea?
– roca evropasTan ase axlos varT, swored maSin aRadgina putinma frenebi, raTa xeli SegviSalos kandidatis statusis miRebaSi. ruseTs surs, saerTaSoriso sazogadoebaSi Seqmnas ganwyoba, rom saqarTvelo ruseTis mokavSirea. samwuxarod, saqarTvelos xelisuflebisgan nulovani reagireba da calkeuli bizneskompaniis aRtyineba kidev ufro azianebs process. xelisuflebis TqmiT, es saqarTvelos ekonomikaze dadebiTad aisaxeba, magram qarTuli ekonomikis ruseTze damokidebuleba mxolod cudis momtania. evrokavSiris qveynebma ukve gaakeTes komentari xelisuflebis ritorikasa da umoqmedobaze, ris gamoc demarSi gamogvicxades. es Zalian damazianebelia CvenTvis am etapze.
– opozicia ukmayofiloa arsebuli xelisuflebis saqmianobiT, Tumca mmarTveli partia acxadebs, rom qveyana Tanmimdevrulad viTardeba da opoziciuri speqtri destruqciuli qmedebebiTaa dakavebuli, am mxriv Tqveni partiis SeniSvnebi ramdenad argumentirebulia sxvadasxva sakiTxTan mimarTebiT?
– Cveni partia yovelTvis argumentirebulad da dasabuTebulad akeTebs gancxadebebs. `lelo~ sazogadoebis interesebidan gamomdinare moqmedebs da Cveni saparlamento saqmianoba swored sazogadoebisa da qveynisTvis mniSvnelovani sakiTxebis gadasawyvetadaa mimarTuli. Cven baTumis sakrebuloSic gvyavs warmomadgeneli, romelic konkretul faqtebsa da argumentebze dayrdnobiT muSaobs. swored amitom aris `lelo~ sxva partiebisgan gamorCeuli. Cven provokaciasa da emociebze dayrdnobiT ki ar vsaqmianobT, aramed racionalurad, qveynis interesebidan gamomdinare vmoqmedebT.
– am bolo dros saqarTvelos prezidenti salome zurabiSvili aRmasrulebel da sakanonmdeblo xelisuflebis nawils adanaSaulebs ruseTis mimarT loialuri politikis gatarebaSi, ramdenad mosalodnelia mmarTvelma gundma prezidentis impiCmenti gamoacxados da am SemTxvevaSi saparlamento opoziciam ra unda moimoqmedos?
– zurabiSvilis bolo gancxadebebma sazogadoebis mowoneba daimsaxura, Tumca xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebisgan kritika miiRo. prezidentis ritorika bolo periodSi qarTveli xalxis SexedulebebTan, metwilad, axlos aris. swored amis gamo gaRiziandnen mmarTveli gundis warmomadgenlebi. realurad, 2018 wels xom isini uWerdnen mxars zurabiSvils da rom ara es mxardaWera, yvelam viciT, zurabiSvili ver gaxdeboda prezidenti. ai, amitomac eZaxian zurabiSvils moRalates, ver aitanes, rom igi saxelmwifoebrivad swor pozicias iWers. Tumca aucileblad unda vTqvaT isic rom misi saubari mxolod frazebad rCeba. praqtikaSi zurabiSvils meti berketi aqvs, Tundac politpatimrebis Sewyalebis kuTxiT (nika gvaramias vgulisxmob), magram amas ar akeTebs, ris gamoc sazogadoebas mis gulwrfelobaSi eWvi Seaqvs. vinaidan prezidentobis vada male ewureba, Cemi azriT, mosalodneli ar aris misi impiCmenti. Tu amas `ocneba~ mainc gaakeTebs, es erTgvari TviTlustracia iqneba. da mainc, aseTi nabijis gadadgmis SemTxvevaSi, opoziciam yvela berketi unda gamoiyenos – rogorc parlamentSi maqsimaluri winaaRmdegoba, ise quCidan brZola.
– eqspertebi arc opozicias indoben, acxadeben, rom opozicia caitnotSia da jerjerobiT politikur aminds qveyanaSi ver qmnis, ra stadiaSia dRes opoziciuri speqtri?
– opozicia dRes namdvilad imsaxurebs kritikas. mcire partiebi TviTgamorkvevis procesSi arian, mTavari opoziciuri partia ki, arsebuli menejmentiT emsgavseba imas, visac akritikebs. opozicias Rirebulebebis gadafaseba da sazogadoebis interesebTan daaxloeba sWirdeba. amisTvis saWiroa axali, kargi warsulis mqone saxeebis, axalgazrdebis wina planze wamoweva gadawyvetilebis mimReb pirebad, sazogadoebisTvis mTavar problemebze saubari da rac mTavaria, gegma, ris mixedviTac imoqmedebs arCevnebamde da arCevnebze. am etapze, vfiqrob, opozicia mxolod elodeba `qarTul ocnebas,~ rodis dauSvebs Secdomas da Semdeg emociebiT moqmedebs, ris gamoc Sedegis miRwevas ver axerxebs.
– gverds ver avuvliT `nacmoZraobaSi~ Seqmnil mdgomareobas, urTierTbraldebebi meliasa da xabeiSvilis gunds Soris mZafrdeba, es risi maniSnebelia?
– imis, rom mTavari opoziciuri partia ver Sedga wamyvan Zalad, metic, is sazogadoebisTvis kvlav mTavari miuRebeli partiaa. dRes rac am partiaSi xdeba, Soridan hgavs oligarqiuli tipis mmarTvelobas. Sida dapirispirebam srulad daaviwya am partiis wevrebs, rom isini amomrCevlebis warmomadgenlebi unda iyvnen da ara konkretuli adamianebis. sul ufro da ufro mimyardeba Sexeduleba, rom `nacmoZraoba~ da `qarTuli ocneba~ SeTanxmebulad moqmedeben. maT awyobT arsebuli statuskvos SenarCuneba (gansakuTrebiT, `nacmos~ amJamindel menejments).
– ra daskvnis saSualebas iZleva is, rom opoziciis xuTma wevrma mxari dauWira iusticiis sabWoSi xelisuflebis mier wardgenil kandidatebs?
– es faqti aCvenebs imas, rom opozicia mainc ar Cans iseTi principuli, rogoric unda iyos. xSir SemTxvevaSi, opoziciis warmomadgenlebic moqmedeben mxolod sakuTari interesebidan (maT Soris, finansuri) gamomdinare da ver grZnoben angariSvaldebulebas sazogadoebis mimarT. es ki kidev ufro did undoblobas iwvevs opoziciuri politikuri partiebis mimarT. amitomac, opoziciurma partiebma siebis Sedgenisas unda gaiTvaliswinon ara fuli da gavlenebi, aramed patiosneba, principuloba, Rirseba, gamocdileba, codna da SesaZlebloba.
– aSkarad Cans, rom qarTul politikaSi xdeba gadajgufebebi, zogi partia iSleba, zogi aqtiurobs, am mxriv `lelos~ saarCevnod ra strategia aqvs SemuSavebuli?
– am mocemulobiT, `lelo~ apirebs damoukidebel subieqtad warsdges arCevnebze. sxva politikur subieqtebTan molaparakebebi jerjerobiT aqtiur fazaSi ar aris. `lelos~ politikuri kursi Tavidanve iyo damoukidebeli Zalis Seqmna, romelic warsulSi datovebda saakaSvilsa da ivaniSvils. dRes `lelos~ mizania, rac SeiZleba meti, kargi warsulis mqone, gamocdili da ganaTlebuli axalgazrda CaerTos am procesSi. Tuki saarCevnod moxdeba gadajgufeba, me darwmunebuli var, rom `lelo~ sazogadoebrivi, erovnuli interesebidan gamomdinare gadawyvetilebas miiRebs, da ara, konkretuli adamianebis ambiciebze damyarebuls.
– sociologiur kvlevebs Tu vendobiT, xuTprocentian saarCevno bariers mxolod mmarTveli partia da `nacmoZraoba~ daZlevs, ramdenad mosalodnelia Tqveni partia realur mesame Zalad iqces?
– Cveni politikaSi mosvlis mizani mesame Zalis Seqmna iyo. Zalis, romelic orientirebuli iqneboda sazogadoebis problemebis mogvarebaze da ara konkretuli adamianebis interesebis gatarebaze. Cveni ramdenimewliani politikac swored am mizans emsaxureba. am mocemulobiT, Cven maqsimalurad vcdilobT, vimuSaoT sazogadoebasTan erTad, raTa martivad davZlioT 5%-iani barieri da `ocnebas~ ar mieces qveyanaSi avtoritarizmis damyarebisa da qveynis sagareo kursis Secvlis saSualeba. Cemi azriT, kargi iqneba, Tu saarCevno barieri daiwevs 2 an 3 procentamde, raTa sxva partiebis amomrCevlebsac mieceT SesaZlebloba, parlamentSi hyavdeT warmomadgeneli. srulad proporciuli arCevnebi aris opoziciis SesaZlebloba, Tavad Seqmnas politikuri amindi.
– bolodroindelma adgilobrivma arCevnebma cxadyo, rom mosaxleobis 50 procenti arCevnebze ar dadis, ras akeTebs Tundac Tqveni partia, rom amomrCevlis xma ar daikargos?
– mosaxleobis sakmaod didi nawili politikur partiebs ar endoba, an imedi aqvs dakarguli. Cven vcdilobT, rom yvela platformis gamoyenebiT gavaJReroT sazogadoebisTvis mniSvnelovani sakiTxebi, problemebi da maTi mogvarebis gzebi. aseve, davarwmunoT adamianebi, rom TiToeulis xma gadamwyvetia da maTi CarTulobis gareSe qveynis ganviTareba SeuZlebelia. gvinda, rom adamianebs daubrundeT imedi da politikis mimarT ndoba. me mesmis, rom sabWoTa kavSiris daSlis Semdeg xelisuflebaSi mosuli partiebi ar atarebdnen sazogadoebis farTo masebis (mowyvladi jgufebis) interesebs da ametebdnen Zalauflebas, magram Cven SegviZlia SevcvaloT es tendencia da politika gavxadoT sazogadoebis problemebis mogvarebis platforma.
– sagareo sakiTxsac SevexoT: eqspertebi amboben, rom SesaZloa ruseTma `troas cxenis~ msgavsi saCuqari gagvikeTos, anu SemogvTavazos konfederacia sami saxelmwifos (saqarTvelo, afxazeTi, `samxreT oseTi~) saxiT, ras fiqrobT?
– afxazeTi da `samxreT oseTi~ saqarTvelos nawilia da misi calkeul saxelmwifoebad ganxilva warmoudgenlad mimaCnia. bolo periodSi prorusuli propagandis gamtareblebi saubroben, rom putini `gvaCuqebs~ afxazeTs da egreT wodebul samxreT oseTs, Tu uars vityviT dasavlur kursze. amis aranairi safuZveli ar arsebobs, es calsaxa rusuli propagandaa. qarTveli koleqtiuri `sergo orjonikiZeebi~ cdiloben sazogadoebis SecdomaSi Seyvanas, raTa `strategiulad moviTminoT~ qveynis dasavluri kursis cvlileba. realurad, es propaganda emsaxureba mxolod da mxolod saqarTvelos garusebis politikas. arc putins da arc ruseTis sxva warmomadgenlebs arsad uxsenebiaT afxazeTisa da `samxreT oseTis~ sakiTxi, metic, isini am teritoriebs calkeul saxelmwifoebad moixsenieben.
– dabolos, ra gavlena eqneba ukrainaSi mimdinare oms evropisa da, upirveles yovlisa, postsabWoTa qveynebis momavalze?
– es omi aris ara ruseT-ukrainis, aramed borotebis imperiisa da civiluri samyaros dapirispireba, sadac aucileblad damarcxdeba boroteba, es ki postsabWoTa qveynebis momavalze dadebiTad aisaxeba. Cven gveqneba SesaZlebloba, Tavi davaRwioT ruseTis marwuxebs, romelic ar gvaZlevs ganviTarebis saSualebas.