,,2024 წლის არჩევნები ჩვენი ქვეყნისთვის იქნება არა მხოლოდ ევროატლანტიკურ სტრუქტურებთან დაახლოების, არამედ დემოკრატიულობის ტესტიც”
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politikur velze axali gadanawilebaa, zogi partia saarCevnod axal platformas qmnis, zogi mesame Zalaze acxadebs pretenzias da opoziciur speqtrs gaerTianebisken mouwodebs, oRond `nacmoZraobis~ gareSe, sxva partiebi jerjerobiT dakvirvebis reJimSi imyofebian, Tavis mxriv mmarTveli gundi arCevnebSi damajerebel gamarjvebaze saubrobs, raSic opozicias eWvi Seaqvs da acxadebs, rom xelisufleba, rogorc yovelTvis, arCevnebis gayalbebas Seecdeba
amasobaSi axlovdeba evrokavSiris verdiqti saqarTvelosTan mimarTebiT. udavoa, rom kandidatis statusis moniWeba saqarTvelos momavals mniSvnelovnad Secvlis ukeTesobisken, sapirispiro Sedegis dadgomis SemTxvevaSi ki, cxadia, Cveni qveyana ruseTis orbitaSi moeqceva, rac qarTulma politikurma speqtrma ar unda dauSvas. am da sxva aqtualur sakiTxebze `aWarasTan~ sajaro mmarTvelobis doqtori, bsu-is leqtori giga fartenaZe saubrobs.
– rogoria Tqveni azri dRes mimdinare politikur procesebze qveyanaSi, ra aspeqtebs gamohyofdiT?
– qveynis winaSe mdgar politikur procesebze saubris dros upriani iqneba, Tu vimsjeleb mis maprovocirebel garemoebebze da zogadad, imaze, Tu ra qmnis aRniSnul realobas. pirveli, rasac gamovyofdi, ruseTis warumatebeli omi ukrainaSi da Cvens qveyanaSi amiT gamZafrebuli politikuri klasis gaxleCilobaa, meore – kvlav ruseTis, Tumca amjerad, warmatebuli hibriduli omia Tavisufali da evropuli saqarTvelos winaaRmdeg da, samwuxarod, saxelmwifos oficialuri poziciaa yvelafer amaze, mesame – orpolusianobis mcdelobis SenarCuneba da `mesame (alternatiuli) Zalis~ Seqmnis mcdelobis maqsimaluri xelSeSla an romelime polusisTvis mikuTvneba da meoTxe – 12 rekomendacia, saqarTvelos sagareo kursi, mis irgvliv ganviTarebuli movlenebi da moaxloebuli saparlamento arCevnebi, romelic, SegviZlia vTqvaT, rom ukve aqtiur fazaSi Sevida.
– Tqven mniSvnelovani Temebi CamoTvaleT. . . aSkaraa, rom qveyana araoficialur saarCevno reJimSi gadavida, axlaxan `nacmoZraobam~ da `strategia aRmaSenebelma~ axali platforma Seqmnes. . .
– yofili wevrebis gayra, Semdeg isev Serwyma niSnavs, rom `adgilebis gadanacvlebiT jami ar icvleba~. realurad, Tu am ori partiis mizani iyo, sxva opoziciuri ZalebisTvis eCvenebinaT magaliTi, rom erTiani ZalebiT unda ibrZolon xelisuflebaSi myofi mmarTveli partiis dasustebisTvis – jer mizani ar aris miRweuli. meore, am nabijis sargeblianobaze Tu visaubrebT, `strategia aRmaSeneblis~ integracia `nacionalur moZraobaSi~ niSnavs garantias, rom am partiis xelmZRvaneloba Tu warmomadgenlebi 2024 wlis arCevnebis Sedegad parlamentSi moxvdebian (damoukideblad maT 5%-iani barieris pirobebSi amis Sansi faqtobrivad, ar gaaCndaT), xolo `nacionaluri moZraobis~ sargebeli iqneba mxolod da mxolod axali inteleqtualuri Zalebis da instituciuri midgomebis sinTezi aRniSnul partiaSi, rac, vfiqrob, udavod sWirdeboda dRevandel `nacmoZraobas~.
– analogiurad axsna am aliansis mizezi `lelomac~, oRond aRniSnes, rom unda Seiqmnas axali centri `nacmoZraobis~ gareSe, rogoria Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb?
– modiT, hipoTeturad davuSvaT, rom qarTulma politikurma opoziciam moaxerxa dRes moqmedi xelisuflebis damarcxeba, vTqvaT, cvlilebebi moxda arCevnebis gziT da dRis wesrigSi dadga koaliciuri mTavrobis formireba – vin SeZlebs mTavrobis kabinetis dakompleqtebas? bunebrivia, imas, visac yvelaze maRali mxardaWera aqvs sazogadoebisgan da aseTi opoziciuri flangidan siis saTaveSi maRali albaTobiT iqneba `nacionaluri moZraoba~ da, Sesabamisad, TanmimdevrobiT bariergadalaxuli sxva partiebi. aseT dros ra xdeba? – `lelo~ uars ambobs im mTavrobis SemadgenlobasTan erTad SeTanxmebulad muSaobaze, sadac `nacmoZraobis~ kandidatebic iqnebian Tu piriqiT? rbilad rom vTqvaT, paradoqsulad JRers. . . Tu opoziciur flangs realurad surs politikuri cvlilebebi qveyanaSi, gaixsenon gasuli wlebis praqtika, gamocdileba, Secdomebi da mxolod amis Semdeg isaubron gadaWriT cvlilebebis daCqarebaze. Tu mizani xelisuflebis Secvla da koaliciuri mTavrobis formirebaa, aseT SemTxvevaSi es gancxadeba uimedoa da opoziciur flangs ufro asustebs, vidre aZlierebs, radgan politikur partiebs, moswonT Tu ara, realoba isaa, rom `nacionaluri moZraoba~ opoziciur flangze eleqtoratis yvelaze maRali mxardaWeriT sargeblobs, rac gulisxmobs, rom koaliciuri mTavrobis pirobebSi maTTan erT kabinetSi yofna gardauvali iqneba. `lelos~ strategias da msjelobas Tu gavyvebiT, aseT SemTxvevaSi mas SeuZlia aqcenti gaakeTos qveyanaSi arsebul im amomrCevlebze, romlebic antinacebi arian da amave dros, mxars ar uWeren mmarTvel Zalas. marTalia aseTi amomrCevlebis raodenoba qveyanaSi wlidan wlamde matulobs, Tumca maTi politikuri simpaTiebi unda gadaixaros romelime arsebuli politikuri Zalisken an aseTi axali unda gaCndes, magram warsuli gamocdilebidan Tu vimsjelebT, `lelo~ ver gaxda is mizidulobis centri, romelic am amomrCevlebisTvis `alternativad~ iqneboda ganxiluli.
– realurad Tu Camoyalibdeba mesame Zala, ra Sansi aqvs konkurencia gauwios mmarTvel partias da `nacmoZraobas~?
– Tu Camoyalibdeba mesame Zala, Cven, maRali albaTobiT, 2024 wlis saparlamento arCevnebis Sedegad saqarTveloSi gveyoleba pirveli koaliciuri mTavroba. Sansebs rac Seexeba, mmarTvel partias hyavs Tavisi mxardamWerebi, aseve aqvs rogorc finansuri, ise saxelmwifoebrivi resursebi eleqtoratis SenarCunebisTvis, `nacmoZraobasac~ hyavs stabiluri amomrCeveli, Tumca am partiis Tavmjdomaris arCevnebma didi dartyma miayena Tavad partias (faqtobrivad, opoziciur orbitaze partiis erT muStad yofnis SesaZlebloba gaqra, Tumca `nacmoZraobis~ mxardamWerebis es gaurkvevloba arcerT SemTxvevaSi ar niSnavs, rom isini `qarTuli ocnebis~ potenciur mxardamWerebad iqcevian. swored amitom aq konkurenciaze saubari ufro naklebad mgonia mizanSewonili, politikurma partiebma unda izrunon im amomrCevelTa xmebis mobilizebasa da mozidvaze, romlebic arc `qarTul ocnebas~ da arc `nacionalur moZraobas~ ar uWeren mxars. aseTi amomrCevlis raodenoba, kidev erTxel ganvmeordebi, saqarTveloSi Zalian didia.
– qarTul politikaSi urTierTbraldebebi araxalia, am mxriv opoziciis warmomadgenlebi erTmaneTs ar indoben, magaliTad, naTelaSvilma ganacxada, opoziciis ZiriTadi nawili mieyida xelisuflebaso. . .
– batoni Salvas gancxadeba iribad Tu pirdapir, xels uwyobs opoziciurad ganwyobili politikuri partiebis mimarT nihilizmis da uimedobis gancdis gaRvivebas, rac aseve xels uwyobs polarizaciasac. Tu romelime politikuri partiis liders, warmomadgenels SeuZlia, sarwmuno faqtebiT warsdges sazogadoebis winaSe Tavisi braldebebis gasamyareblad, amas namdvilad eqneba pozitiuri Sedegi, magram Tu partiebis mxridan braldebebi mxolod da mxolod braldebebia sakuTari ambiciebis Tu survilebis dasakmayofileblad da es mxolod erT-erTi saSualebaa am miznamde misaRwevad, maSin, ubralod, haers gatanebuli gancxadebebia.
– cxadia, xelisuflebac aqtiurobs, xvdeba mosaxleobas, eqspertebi acxadeben, rom Tu opozicia ar gaiRviZebs, `qarTul ocnebas~ ar gauWirdeba arCevnebis mogeba. rogoria Tqveni azri?
– dRevandeli mocemulobis gaTvaliswinebiT, imis gaTvlas, ramdeni aqvs `qarTul ocnebas~ Sansi rom mxardamWerTa raodenobiT pirveli politikuri partia iyos 2024 wlis arCevnebze, ar sWirdeba didi codna da analizi. opoziciis dabneuloba Tu gaurkvevloba, erTmaneTTan dadgomis Tu verdadgomis kompleqsebi, `ocnebis~ mxardamWerTa raodenoba (Semcirebuli, Tumca mainc msuye), amas damatebuli sajaro uwyebaSi momuSaveTa ricxvi da administraciuli resursi – es yvelaferi metyvelebs `ocnebis~ upiratesobaze, magram aq aris erTi Zalian mniSvnelovani `magram~ – `qarTuli ocnebisTvis~ es ar iqneba rigiTi saparlamento arCevnebi, romelic Cautarebia 2012 wlidan dRemde, radgan ukrainaSi ruseTis SeWris mimarT orazrovanma poziciebma dasavleli partniorebis, elCebis, evroparlamentis warmomadgenlebis pirdapirma da, xSir SemTxvevaSi, usafuZlo lanZRvam, `agentis Sesaxeb kanonis~ miRebis mcdelobam, ruseTTan pirdapiri frenebis da uvizod mimosvlis aRdgenam, antidasavluri ritorikis xelSewyobam da prorusuli ganwyobebis gaZlierebam mas daakargvina im amomrCevelTa mxardaWera, romlebic 2011 wlidan gverdSi edga rogorc evropul da prodasavluri Rirebulebebis mqone partias. swored amitom es arCevnebi ukve aris gansakuTrebuli da gansxvavebuli aqamde Catarebuli arCevnebisagan.
– arCevnebSi mniSvnelovania mosaxleobis aqtiuroba, vxedavT, rom amomrCeveli didad ar aqtiurobs, am mxriv opoziciam ra unda moimoqmedos?
– absenteizmi (arCevnebSi monawileobisTvis Tavis arideba) ganpirobebulia politikuri klasis mimarT undoblobiT. Tu partiebs undaT arCevnebSi iseTi adamianebis yuradRebis miqceva, romlebsac, ubralod, ar sjeraT politikuri partiebis dapirebebis da, zogadad, maTi, unda izrunon sakadro politikis Secvlaze. politikuri partia unda iqmnebodes sajaro interesebze morgebuli ideebiT, romlis mizanic arsebuli xelisuflebis ukeTesobisken Secvlaa, xolo iq, sadac partia konkretuli piris/ebis interesebis realizebas Tu mfarvelobas isaxavs miznad, manZili amomrCevelsa da saarCevno yuTs Soris imaze didi iqneba, vidre manamde iyo. . .
– cxadia, umniSvnelovanesi sakiTxia 12 evropuli rekomendaciis Sesruleba, xelisufleba am mxriv pozitiur gancxadebas avrcelebs, opozicias ki eWvi Seaqvs da mizezad xelisuflebis antidemokratiul mmarTvelobas asaxelebs. . .
– samwuxarod, bolo periodSi bevri interpretacia, manipulacia Tu miTqma-moTqma arsebobs 12 rekomendaciis irgvliv da minda, Zalian martivad davanaxo Cvens mkiTxvels is procesebi, rac am sakiTxis irgvliv mimdinareobs. 12 rekomendacia gacemulia evrokomisiis mier. is yoveli gafarToebis dros gascems Sesabamis damaxasiaTebel rekomendaciebs im saxelmwifoebisTvis, romlebsac survili aqvT, gaxdnen evrokavSiris wevrebi. es aris mkacrad dadgenili, winaswar gawerili da Sesabamisi regulaciebis mqone, savaldebulo rekomendaciaTa jaWvi, romlis Sefasebis kriteriumebi da qvekriteriumebic dadgenilia evrokomisiis mier. warmoidgineT, Cveni qveynis erovnuli nakrebi TamaSobs evropis Cempionatze, msajebis mier miRebul gadawyvetilebebs ugulebelyofs da xSir SemTxvevaSi moTamaSeebi karnaxobdnen msajebs, raa jarima da ra – ara. dRes igive xdeba aRniSnul rekomendaciebTan dakavSirebiT. evrokomisia ambobs, saqarTvelom 12 rekomendaciidan srulad Seasrula 3 rekomendacia, raRac nawilze muSaoba midis, Tumca ar aris srulad Sesrulebuli, xolo sxva nawilSi saerTod, ar aris progresi. am dros oficialuri saqarTvelo ambobs, rom Cven 12 rekomendaciidan TiTqmis yvela SevasruleT da mxolod depolarizaciis nawilSi gvaqvs samuSao, Tumca esec opoziciis bralia. ra gamodis? vmonawileobT gamocdaSi, sadac Semfasebels da sagamocdo sakiTxis Semdgenels vkarnaxobT, romeli pasuxia swori da romeli – ara?! Tu gvinda kandidatis statusi, unda viTamaSoT im wesebiT, romlebic 12 rekomendaciis srulad SesrulebaSi dagvexmareba da am TamaSis wesebis Sesruleba razec aris damokidebuli, amaze zemoT ukve visaubreT.
– saqarTvelos prezidentma gvaramia Seiwyala. mmarTveli partiis wevrebma ganacxades, rom Tu prezidenti wiTel xazebs gadakveTs, araa gamoricxuli misi impiCmenti. . .
– Tu mmarTveli partiis wevrebi wiTeli xazebis gadakveTaSi mesame prezidentis Sewyalebas gulisxmobdnen, isRa dagvrCenia, davelodoT procesebs. sazogadoebas kargad axsovs msgavsi gancxadebebi gvaramias Sewyalebamde, Tumca maT araferi mohyolia. amas Tavisi logikuri axsnac aqvs. rac Seexeba impiCments, konstituciiT miniWebuli uflebamosilebis gamoyenebis gamo prezidentis impiCmentis dawyeba absurdia da, Tanac, mas sWirdeba, sul mcire, arsebuli saparlamento Semadgenlobis 2/3-is mxardaWera, risi Segrovebac `qarTuli ocnebis~ saparlamento fraqcias, maRali albaTobiT, gauWirdeba.
– kvlav arCevnebs davubrundeT – civilizebuli saarCevno garemos Seqmna, ZiriTadad, viszea damokidebuli da am mxriv xelisuflebam ra unda moimoqmedos?
– saarCevno garemos civilizebulobaze metyvelebs, Tu ramdenad Tavisufal, konkurentul, gamWvirvale an SantaJisa Tu mosyidvis garemoSi gviwevs arCevnebis Catareba, am pirobebis SeqmnaSi ki swored gadamwyvet rols TamaSobs xelisufleba, Tumca arCevnebSi CarTul yvela mxares ekisreba Tavisi wili pasuxismgebloba. nebismier moqmedebas garkveuli agresiuli jgufebis mxridan partiebis saarCevno kampaniis xelis SesaSlelad uSualod saarCevno periodSi sxvadasxva Zaladobriv qmedebas, amomrCevlis daSinebas Tu mosyidvis mcdelobas unda mohyves am faqtebis gamovlena-identificireba da aRkveTa.
– didi vnebaTaRelva gamoiwvia saqarTveloSi primakovis fondis warmomadgenlis gancxadebam, rom saqarTveloSi unda Seiqmnas rusul-qarTuli universiteti. . .
– primakovis es gancxadeba, qveyanaSi Seqmnil bolodroindel movlenebs Tu gadavxedavT, logikuric iyo. ruseTis hibriduli omi, samwuxarod, Cvens qveyanaSi warmatebiT mimdinareobs da amitomac rusebis samizne iseTi sensitiuri da mniSvnelovani sakiTxebia, rogoricaa kultura, ganaTleba, axalgazrdebi da sxva, Tumca, miuxedavad ruseTis ganzraxvisa, mniSvnelovania xazi gavusvaT im faqts, Tu rogori winaaRmdegobiT xvdeba amas qarTuli sazogadoebis udidesi nawili, rac, vfiqrob, erT-erTi mTavari iaraRia ruseTis hibridul omTan gasamklaveblad. qveyanaSi, sadac suverenuli teritoriis 20% ruseTis mier aris okupirebuli, qveyanaSi sadac mcocavi okupacia erTi dRiTac ar SeCerebula da mosaxleobis gataceba Cveul movlenad iqca, roca sruliad civilizebuli samyaro cdilobs, win aRudges ruseTis brutalur oms ukrainaSi, xolo Sens qveyanaSi agresori qveynis moqalaqe, primakovis fondis warmomadgeneli gvesaubreba rusul-qarTuli universitetis Seqmnaze, es paradoqsia da aseT `winadadebaze~ daTanxmeba erovnuli interesebis Ralatia. sainteresoa, vin da ra unda aswavlon am universitetSi: saerTaSoriso samarTlis principebi? adamianis uflebebi? konstitucionalizmi?
– udavoa, rom saqarTveloSi momaval saparlamento arCevnebs dasavleTi gamadidebeli SuSiT daakvirdeba. iqneba Tu ara es arCevnebi evroatlantikur struqturebTan daaxloebis testi?
– 2024 wlis saparlamento arCevnebi Cveni qveynisTvis iqneba ara mxolod evroatlantikur struqturebTan daaxloebis, aramed demokratiulobis testic. mimdinare procesebi cxadyofs, rom moaxloebuli saarCevno debatebis ZiriTadi sakiTxi iqneba qveynis sagareo kursi da, maRali albaTobiT, politikuri partiebic ZiriTad fsons am mimarTulebiT gadaanawileben.
– ruseT-ukrainis omSi, am ukanasknelis gamarjvebis SemTxvevaSi okupirebuli teritoriebis deokupaciis ra Sansi gvaqvs?
– cxadze ucxadesia, rom ukrainaSi SeWriT ruseTma Tavisi uZlevelobis miTi Tavisive xeliT daamsxvria. ruseTi gamofituli da dasustebulia, dro mxolod da mxolod mis winaaRmdeg moqmedebs. Tu ruseTi damarcxda, es avtomaturad Seasustebs hibridul oms Cvens regionSi da SesaZlebels gaxdis deokupaciisken qmediTi da efeqturi nabijebis gadadgmas.
– dabolos, erTian evropul sivrceSi integracia CvenTvis ramdenad umjobesia?
– umjobesi ar aris – saqarTvelos evropul sivrceSi integracia CvenTvis aris ualternativo da ar arsebobs sxva realoba, romelSic Cvens qveyanas SeuZlia iyos imaze Tavisufali, ekonomikurad da instituciurad Zlieri, vidre es evropul ojaxSi integraciis SemTxvevaSia SesaZlebeli.