აკაკი ბერიძე: მგონია, რომ რუსეთის აგრესია იქნება საბჭოთა კავშირის ნანგრევების – რუსეთის ფედერაციის ჩამოშლის დასაბამი
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iseTi qveynebi, rogoric saqarTvelo da ukrainaa, omis Wrilobebs didxans ver moiSuSeben da amas 2008-2022 wlebis omebi cxadyofs. dasavleTi ar egueba ruseTis agresias ukrainis mimarT da qmediT nabijebs dgams am qveynis mxardaWerisTvis. kacobriobas meti saSiSroeba Seeqmneboda, rom ara meqanizmi, romelic calkeuli saxelmwifos agresias aRkveTs da saTanado zomebs mimarTavs mSvidobis da progresis ganmtkicebisTvis. am meqanizmis erT-erTi mTavari rgolia haagis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlo, romelmac amaswinaT saqarTvelosTvis mniSvnelovani dokumenti miiRo. 2008 wlis agvistos omTan dakavSirebiT ukrainamac Seitana ruseTis winaaRmdeg msgavsi sarCeli haagis sasamarTloSi. am da sxva saWirboroto sakiTxebze gvesaubreba Savi zRvis saerTaSoriso universitetis iuridiuli fakultetis leqtori, saerTaSoriso samarTlis specialisti akaki beriZe. aqve davZenT, rom misi mosazrebebi ar gamoxatavs im organizaciis pozicias, romelTanac dakavSirebulia SromiTi saqmianobiT.
– batono akaki, rogorc cnobilia, haagis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlo 2008 wlis agvistos omTan dakavSirebiT Cadenil danaSaulebs iZiebs, vidre amis Sesaxeb visaubrebdeT, oriod sityviT _ rodis daarsda es sasamarTlo da ra Sedis mis kompetenciaSi?
– bevrjer Sevxvedrivar masmediaSi amgvar konotacias – haagis sasamarTlo ixilavs Sesabamis davas. haagis sasamarTloSi aq igulisxmeba yvela is sasamarTlo, romelic ukavSirdeba saerTaSoriso marTlmsajulebas, Tumca araswori interpretacia xdeba masmediis mxridan, rac Cemi azriT, sakiTxis srulyofilad arcodnis Sedegia. dainteresebuli mkiTxvelisaTvis albaT, pirvel rigSi, gansamartia haagaSi arsebuli sasamarTloebis gamijvna kompetenciis kuTxiT, konkretulad im sasamarTloebis, romelTac akisria saerTaSoriso marTlmsajulebis misia da Seiqmna gaerTianebuli erebis CarTulobiTa da mandatiT. haagaSi arsebobs ramdenime sasamarTlo – marTlmsajulebis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlo, sisxlis samarTlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlo Seqmnili romi wesdebis safuZvelze da iugoslaviis movlenebTan dakavSirebiT moqmedi tribunali (yofili iugoslaviis saerTaSoriso sisxlis samarTlis tribunali). saqarTvelosTvis am sami sasamarTlodan mniSvnelovani aris ori sasamarTlo – marTlmsajulebis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlo da sisxlis samarTlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlo, sadac saqarTvelos mier Setanil saqmeebs ganixilaven. marTlmsajulebis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos funqciaa saxelmwifoebs Soris arsebuli davis ganxilva. rac Seexeba sisxlis samarTlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos, misi kompetencia regulirdeba romis wesdebiT da aq romis wesdebiT gaTvaliswinebul mniSvnelovan danaSaulebze individualuri sisxlis samarTlis pasuxismgeblobas aweseben – anu saerTaSoriso sisxlis samarTlis sasamarTlos mier gamotanili gadawyvetileba exeba individebs, adamianebs, vinc sCadian iseT danaSaulebs, rogoricaa agresia, omis danaSauli, kacobriobis winaaRmdeg mimarTuli danaSaulebebi. marTlmsajulebis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos istoria mibmulia erTa ligis da gaerTianebuli erebis Camoyalibebis istorias, haagis samSvidobo konferencias. zogadad, saerTaSoriso samarTalSi davebis gadawyvetis sxvadasxva meqanizmi arsebobs. davebis gadawyvetis meqanizmebi asaxulia gaeros wesdebis 33-e muxlSi, romelic saxelmwifoTaSorisi davebis mSvidobianad gadawyvetis Semdeg meTodebs iTvaliswinebs: molaparakeba, mediacia, konsultacia, arbitraJi, sasamarTlo daregulireba, regionaluri saagentoebisTvis mimarTva an Suamavloba. haagis marTlmsajulebis saerTaSoriso sasamarTloSi saqarTvelos hqonda sarCeli Setanili 2008 wels rogorc agvistos omis epizodebTan, aseve 90-ian wlebSi ruseTis mier afxazeTSi qarTvelTa eTnikuri wmendis Sesaxeb. sasamarTlom daadgina, rom `ar gaaCnia uflebamosileba, ganixilos saqarTvelos mier 2008 wlis 12 agvistos Setanili sarCeli~, romelSic saqarTvelo acxadebda, rom ruseTma rasobrivi diskriminaciis yvela formis aRmofxvris Sesaxeb 1965 wlis saerTaSoriso konvenciiT aRebuli valdebulebebi 1990 wlidan 2008 wlis agvistomde periodSi sam sxvadasxva dros daarRvia, afxazeTsa da samxreT oseTSi intervenciebis dros. sasamarTlom es gadawyvetileba mas Semdeg miiRo, rac marTebulad miiCnia ruseTis argumenti, romlis Tanaxmadac saqarTvelos ar ucdia dakavSirebuli sakiTxebi ruseTTan ganexila da aseve, ar ucdia konvenciis 22-e muxliT gaTvaliswinebuli davis mogvarebis sxva meqanizmebis gamoyeneba, sanam is pirdapir marTlmsajulebis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos mimarTavda. Tumca, sasamarTlom ar gaiziara ruseTis kidev erTi argumenti, romlis Tanaxmadac Tbilissa da moskovs Soris `aranairi dava~ ar arsebobda afxazeTis da samxreT oseTis eTnikurad qarTuli mosaxleobis winaaRmdeg rasobriv diskriminaciasTan dakavSirebiT da rom Tbiliss es sakiTxi oficialurad arasdros dauyenebia pirdapir moskovis winaSe. am sasamarTloSi saqmis ganxilva ar Sewyvetila, SeCerebulia manam, sanam saqarTvelo ar amowuravs konvenciiT dadgenili molaparakebebis meqanizms da saqarTvelos kidev aqvs safuZvliani berketebi, rom saqarTvelos sasargeblod Seabrunos dava. amisgan radikalurad gansxvavebuli araa saerTaSoriso sisxlis sasamarTlos Camoyalibebis istoria. ideaSi esec didi saxelmwifoebis konsensusis nawili iyo, Tumca misi Camoyalibeba gaxda erTgvari Sejameba da centralizebuli organos Seqmna msoflioSi mimdinare adamianis uflebaTa mZime darRvevebze saomari mdgomareobis dros. meore msoflio omis Semdeg mokavSireTa Zalebma Seqmnes pirveli saerTaSoriso omis danaSaulebis tribunali, romelic cnobilia, rogorc niurnbergis sasamarTlo procesi, raTa daesajaT nacisti Cinovnikebi. Tumca, mxolod 1990-ian wlebSi bevri saxelmwifo gaerTianda mudmivi saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos Camoyalibebis ideiT, raTa damnaSaveebma pasuxi agon msoflios yvelaze mZime danaSaulebze. gaerTianebuli erebis organizaciam jer Seqmna ad hoc saerTaSoriso sisxlis samarTlis tribunalebi yofil iugoslaviasa da ruandaSi omis danaSaulebTan dakavSirebiT, magram bevri saerTaSoriso samarTlis eqsperti miiCnevda maT araefeqtur da araadekvatur Semakavebel faqtorebad. trinidadma da tobagom 1989 wels mimarTa gaeros, raTa Camoyalibebuliyo mudmivi sasamarTlo 1989 wels. momdevno wlebSi aseTma Zalisxmevam moipova mxardaWera, gansakuTrebiT evropasa da afrikaSi. sisxlis samarTlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos damfuZnebeli xelSekruleba miiRo gaeros generaluri asambleam romis konferenciaze 1998 wlis ivlisSi. mas Semdeg rac ratificirebuli iqna samocze meti qveynis mier, romis statuti ZalaSi Sevida 2002 wlis 1 ivliss da sasamarTlom funqcionireba daiwyo.
– axlaxan haagis sasamarTlom istoriuli gadawyvetileba miiRo, es ramdenad mniSvnelovania saqarTvelosTvis?
– am gadawyvetilebiT kidev erTxel dasturdeba, rom saqarTvelos mosaxleobis mimarT agvistos omis dros Cadenili mZime darRvevebi ruseTis federaciisa da separatistuli reJimebis konkretuli warmomadgenlebis kiserzea. kerZod, haagis sasamarTlos mier gamoqveynebuli informaciis Tanaxmad, agvistos omis dros qarTveli samoqalaqo tyveebis wamebisa da arasaTanado mopyrobis epizodze sasamarTlos prokurorma dakavebis brZanebebi gasca 3 braldebulis mimarT: mixail minZaevi (miTiTebul periodSi cxinvalis regionis e.w. Sinagan saqmeTa ministri); hamlet guCmazovi (miTiTebul periodSi cxinvalis regionis e.w. Ss saministros winaswari dakavebis izolatoris ufrosi); daviT sanakoevi (miTiTebul periodSi e.w. ombudsmeni). gamoZiebis farglebSi, agreTve, gamokveTilia aw gardacvlili viaCeslav borisovis (miTiTebul periodSi ruseTis federaciis SeiaraRebuli Zalebis general-maiori da sahaero Zalebis meTauris moadgile) roli, romelmac, gamoZiebis varaudiT, ganzrax xeli Seuwyo zemoxsenebuli danaSaulebis Cadenas. prokuroris ofisis mimarTva dapatimrebis orderebis gacemis Taobaze konkretulad ukavSirdeba ruseTis mier okupaciis pirobebSi, qarTveli samoqalaqo mosaxleobis ukanono dakavebis, araadamianuri mopyrobis, mZevlad ayvanisa da Semdgomi ukanono gadaadgilebis faqtebs. aRsaniSnavia, rom strasburgis sasamarTlos msgavsad, haagis sasamarTlos prokuroric pirdapir aRniSnavs, rom saqarTvelos teritoriebi okupirebulia ruseTis mier. 2016 wlidan saqarTvelos mTavroba, saqarTvelos iusticiis saministros koordinaciiT, generaluri prokuraturisa da yvela Sesabamisi uwyebis CarTulobiT, aqtiurad TanamSromlobda haagis sasamarTlos prokuroris ofisTan da awvdida gamoZiebis jerovani warmarTvisaTvis saWiro srulyofil informaciasa da mtkicebulebebs. prokuroris ofiss miewoda strasburgis sasamarTloSi agvistos omis saqmis mosagebad Segrovebuli da wardgenili aseulobiT mtkicebulebac. haagis sasamarTlos prokuroris ofisis axlandeli gadawyvetileba saqarTvelos mTavrobis mier zemoaRniSnuli mtkicebulebebis wardgenis Sedegi da strasburgis istoriuli gamarjvebis logikuri gagrZelebaa. saerTaSoriso sisxlis sasamarTlos mier gacemuli – sami piris dakavebis brZanebebSi aRniSnulia, rom saqarTvelos teritoriebi okupirebulia ruseTis federaciis mier. CemTvis es aris yvelaze mniSvnelovani Canaweri dokumentebSi.
– rogorc cnobilia, ruseTi ar TanamSromlobs haagis sasamarTlosTan, kerZod, ar aris mierTebuli romis statutis debulebasTan, es risi maniSnebelia?
– sisxlis samarTlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos wesdebasTan, romis wesdebasTan ar aris mierTebuli msoflioSi TiTqmis yvela didi saxelmwifo. am sasamarTlos xSirad eZaxdnen afrikis saxelmwifoebze morgebul sasamarTlos, radgan saqmeebi, ZiriTadad, am qveynebze modioda. sainteresoa aSS-is pozicia am sasamarTloze. aSS-ma jer daasponsora misi Camoyalibeba, wesdebis miReba, xeli moawera masze, magram obamas administraciis dros es xelmowera gamoiTxova. es iyo erT-erTi Zalian specifikuri SemTxveva sisxlis samarTlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos wesdebis aRiarebaze da iurisdiqciis cnobaze. ruseTs ar aqvs xelmowerili arc Jenevis konvenciebi, romelic exeba saerTaSoriso humanitarul samarTals, anu SeiaraRebuli konfliqtebis dros, omis dros wesebis dacvas. es ganpirobebulia imiT, rom ruseTi Tavs aridebs saerTaSoriso pasuxismgeblobas adamianis uflebaTa darRvevebze.
– Tu haagis sasamarTlom sabolood daadastura ruseTis saxelmwifos danaSauli cxinvalis regionSi, es ra dividendebs miscems qarTul saxelmwifos?
– bevri dividendis miRebis SesaZleblobaa. es dakavSirebulia saerTaSoriso samarTalSi reparaciis anu zianis anazRaurebisa da pirvandel mdgomareobaSi dabrunebis institutTan. magaliTad, adamians, romelsac saxli gadauwves da gamoaZeves samxedro damnaSaveebma mSobliuri keridan, garda imisa, rom dadgindeba samxedro danaSauli mis mimarT, sasamarTlo omis dros dazaralebulTa fondidan aunazRaurebs zarals, aseve, saxelmwifosac, romlis warmomadgenelma Caidina danaSauli, arapirdapir Seeqmneba valdebuleba zianis anazRaurebisa dazaralebulis mimarT. Tumca CemTvis mTavari dividendi konfliqturi teritoriebis statusia, anu termini – okupacia CemTvis gadamwyveti mniSvnelobisaa yvela iuridiul dokumentSi, maT Soris sasamarTlos ganaCenSi da dakavebis orderSi.
– ukrainam, poloneTma da baltiispireTis qveynebmac haagaSi saarCeli Seitanes ruseTis winaaRmdeg ukrainaSi samxedro danaSaulis gamo . . .
– ukrainam, rogorc vici, ori mimarTulebiT ganaxorciela ruseTis mimarT dava. msgavsad saqarTvelosi, mimarTa yvela saerTaSoriso sasamarTlos. marTlmsajulebis saerTaSoriso sasamarTloSi dava mimdinareobs genocidis konvenciidan gamomdinare darRvevebze – ukraineli xalxis mimarT Cadenil eTnikur da erovnul diskriminaciaze, xolo sisxlis samarTlis saerTaSoriso sasamarTloSi aris koleqtiuri sarCeli Setanili rogorc agresiis danaSaulze, aseve omis, kacobriobis danaSaulebze. sainteresoa universaluri iurisdiqciis farglebSi germaniis federaluri prokuroris gancxadeba omis danaSaulebis gamoZiebis Sesaxeb ukrainis teritoriaze, anu am SemTxvevaSi erovnuli iurisdiqcia, ese igi erovnuli prokuraturis organoebi iwyeben sxva qveynis teritoriaze sxva qveynis moqalaqeebis mier sxva qveynis moqalaqeebis mimarT Cadenil danaSaulebze gamoZiebas.
– bevri dasavleli analitikosi, politikosi (magaliTad, meTiu braiza) acxadebs, 2008 wels dasavleTi ufro kritikuli rom yofiliyo ruseTis mimarT, arc yirimis aneqsia moxdeboda da arc ukrainis tragediis momswreni gavxdebodiT, ras fiqrobT?
– natos gafarToeba mis sazRvrebamde ruseTisTvis momakvdinebelia – es iqneba saqarTveloSi Tu ukrainaSi, magram ukrainasTan mimarTebaSi natos gafarToeba ufro mtkivneulad warimarTa – mTeli evropis usafrTxoeba daayena ruseTis federaciam safrTxis qveS da amitomac aris ufro meti CarTuloba evropis qveynebis mxridan. am omis winapiroba aris geopolitikuri miznebi – natos gafarToeba, gavlenis sferoebi da buferuli zonebi. aRniSnulze akeTebs ruseTis mmarTveli elita aqcents, bolo wlebia gzavnilebi ismoda – Tu msoflio ukan ar daixevs da uars ar ityvis natos gafarToebaze, ruseTs eqneba Sesabamisi reagireba. igive procesi midis CvenTan mimarTebaSic, saqarTveloSi igive scenari ganxorcieldeba. ruseTis ekonomikur miznebSia ukrainis ekonomikis krizisi. nebismieri omi iwvevs Sidasamrewvelo industriis moSlas da ukrainaSic es moxdeba, Tu dasavleTi ar daexmara finansurad.
– dabolos, rogor gesaxebaT dasavleT-ruseTis samomavlo urTierTobebi, mosalodnelia Tu ara maT Soris msoflios xelaxali gadanawileba saqarTvelos da ukrainis interesebis sazianod?
– Cemi azriT, ruseTis da konkretulad, putinis saxe mTelma msofliom Zalian cxadad dainaxa da amave dros aRiqva saSiSroeba. amdenad, ar moxdeba interesebis gacvla. ukrainelma xalxma msoflios aCvena TavisuflebisaTvis mebrZoli xalxis fsiqologia. bevri kurseli myavda ukraineli, piradi kontaqtebi maqvs maTTan da arcerTs ar dautovebia ukraina, miuxedavad imisa, rom evropaSi SeuZliaT karieris awyoba. ukraineli xalxi kidev erTxel Sedga, rogorc evropaSi Tavisuflebisa da Rirebulebebis damcavi erToba. dasavleTs aqvs bevri naklovaneba politikaSi, Tumca gaaCnia erTi upiratesoba – is yovelTvis uWers mxars TavisuflebisTvis mebrZol erebs. aris meore faqtoric – zelenskis demokratiulad arCeul reJims aSS da evropa bolomde daicaven da mis cvlilebas ar dauSveben, radgan es erTi saxelmwifos reJimis cvlileba ar iqneba, aramed dasavleTis uTavmoyvareobisa da demokratiis aramdgradobis mimaniSnebeli iqneba. Cemi prognozi mainc ixreba ukrainis sasargeblod. mgonia, rom ruseTis agresia ukrainaSi sabWoTa kavSiris nangrevebis – ruseTis federaciis CamoSlis dasabami gaxdeba.