ამერიკა-რუსეთის ალიანსი – საქართველოს წინააღმდეგ

„. . .ეს არც ამერიკას უნდა და არც რუსეთს, რადგან ტრილიონიანი ტვირთები გავა საქართველოზე“

irma cecxlaZe

gTavazobT intervius politolog ramaz sayvareliZesTan, romelmac sakmaod gabeduli, araordinaruli da saintereso versiebi warmoadgina msoflioSi mimdinare procesebze, trampis gaprezidentebasa da saqarTvelos rolze msoflio gadanawilebis procesSi.
– batono ramaz, aSS-is istoriaSi udidesi politikuri dabrunebis mowmeebi gavxdiT – donald trampis kvlav gaprezidentebam sagonebelSi Caagdo msoflio. ramdenad realuria misi gancxadeba omebis dasrulebis Sesaxeb?

– omebis Taobaze trampis gancxadeba ramdenad realuria, ar vici, magram Zalian rom ecdeba, amaSi darwmunebuli var, radgan aqamde satrabaxo hqonda, rom misi mmarTvelobis periodSi omi ar momxdara. ase rom, misTvis mSvidoba samarko niSania. rac Seexeba meored gaprezidentebas, pirvelisgan Zalian gansxvavebulia im mxriv, rom pirveli gaprezidenteba trampis mowinaaRmdegeebs SemTxveviTobad miaCndaT. ukvirdaT, rogor SeiZleboda, aseTi odiozuri, naxevrad komikuri figura aReqvaT xalxis seriozul arCevanad. aqedan gamomdinare, arc misi pirveli prezidentobis periodi miaCndaT mniSvnelovnad rogorc amerikelebs, ise evropelebs. arada, jer kidev maSin, evropis mimarT simkacre tramps dawyebuli hqonda. meored arCeva ukve niSnavs imas, rom trampi ar iyo SemTxveviTi movlena da es amerikelTa simpaTiis kanonzomierebis gamoxatulebaa. man hariss yvelaferSi mougo, ramac Zalian daafiqra evropis politikuri wreebi da es reaqciebzec etyobaT. molodini gaCnda, rom aq raRac seriozuli moxdeba. igive etyoba Tavad trampsac. Tu davakvirdebiT gamarjvebis Semdeg mis gamosvlas, SevamCnevT mimikis cvlilebas, ucnauri grimasebis moxsnas. erTi momenti iyo, rodesac cekvis ileTebi gaakeTa da amas xalxis mxiaruli reaqcia mohyva, prezidentma Sewyvetis niSnad xeli gaaqnia, TiTqos eubneboda, msgavss verafers ixilavT amieridano. anu sxeulis eniT aseTi ganacxadi ikiTxeboda.
– gamodis, Tavad trampic daseriozulda?
– ki, ase gamodis, Tavad trampmac meored gaprezidenteba ufro seriozul movlenad aRiqva, vidre es miaCnda adre. aqedan gamomdinare, miWirs prognozireba, miT ufro, rom mis gverdiT dgas amerikis ormocdameaTe vice-prezidenti. senatori jei di vensi sruliad axali da yvelaze perspeqtiuli figuraa aSS-is istoriaSi. mas axasiaTeben rogorc Zalian Wkvian, mkveTr, radikalur pirovnebas. anekdotad dadioda, tramps aRar moklaven, radgan masze uaresi darCeba prezidentado. ase rom, supertrampi daiyena gverdiT, rac aseve, saintereso faqtia. rogorc wesi, vice-prezidentad ar irCeven msgavsi gaqanebis pirovnebas. trampma iseTi figura airCia, romelsac xelaRebiT ver moekidebian da iolad ver gadaayoleben viceprezidentobis ufunqcio rols. namdvilad axali tipis procesebi iwyeba, romlis Sinaarsis winaswarmetyveleba rTulia. erTis Tqma SemiZlia, rom es ar iqneba trampis mefobis Zveli etapis analogi. vnaxoT. . .

– trampis gancxadebebma ltolvilTa talRis SeCerebis Sesaxeb SeaSina iq myofi qarTvelebi. imasac ambobdnen, Cvens emigrantebs daadeportebso. . .

– sityva `emigrantebis~ gamoyeneba am qveynis mimarTebaSi Rimilis momgvrelia. amitomac axali terminebi SemoaqvT Tavad amerikelebs, e.w. ZirZveli amerikelebi, axlebi da sxv. magram maT gayraSi gulisxmoben im pirebis nakadisgan gamoTavisuflebas, romelic meqsikidan aralegalurad Semoedineba da diskomforts uqmnis amerikas. saqarTvelosTan analogi rom gavavloT, Cvenc rus da ukrainel emigrantTa talRa mogvadga, ramac umwvavesi reqcia gamoiwvia.

– mwvave reaqcia isev darCa sazogadoebaSi.
– ki, namdvilad asea, magram xom ar ixseneben Tavis droze somxeTidan da azerbaijanidan Semosul emigrantebs, isinic xom ltolvilebi arian? mosaxleobas aRizianebs axal-axali nakadebi. igive xdeba amerikaSic da istoriul faqtebs Tu gavixsenebT, male damSviddebian.
– zelenskis trampTan damokidebulebaSi SiSi igrZnoba.
– zelenski sakmaod rTul mdgomareobaSi aRmoCnda, radgan omis gagrZeleba, met-naklebad, Sedis mis interesebSi. ukrainis ngreva da mosaxleobis ganaxevreba ara mxolod putinis, zelenskis kiserzecaa.
– bevri Tvlida, rom zelenskis, omis dawyebis garda, sxva gamosavali ar hqonda. . .

– . . . magram SeeZlo sxva strategia SeemuSavebina. magaliTad, rodesac faSisturi germania SeiWra safrangeTSi, franguli armia qveynidan gavida da de golma kapitulacia gamoacxada. . . Tumca umkacres partizanul omebs awarmoebdnen iatakqveSeTidan, rac gacilebiT efeqturi aRmoCnda Tavad qveynisTvis. safrangeTi dRemde cxovrobs turizmiT, romelic maSin dangrevas gadarCenili Zeglebis wyalobiTaa momgebiani. ase rom, aseTi frontaluri omi ar aris erTaderTi gza, Tuki qveynis da mosaxleobis gadarCena gsurs. me erTi faqti gavixsene, ufro mets gaixseneben Tavad ukrainelebi, romelTa ojaxebi msxverplad Seewira zelenskis am `vaJkacur~ ideas. cxadia, konkretulad idea emociurad gamarTlebulia. qarTvelebs ra gveTqmis, amdeni saukunea aseT brZolebSi varT, magram saqarTvelos erTi prioriteti aRmoaCnda, ibrZoda aucileblobis SemTxvevaSi, magram Tu ver axerxebda, acxadebda: `daTvi Tu mogeria, babaia dauZaxeo~. qarTveli mefeebi ganadgurebamde brZolas ar amarTlebdnen da eris gadarCenas isaxavdnen miznad. amitomac movataneT aqamde. . . zelenskim ki unikaluri omi arCia, sadac qveyana ibrZvis sxvisi iaraRiT. nebismieri qveyana, romelic oms iwyebs, sakuTari militaristuli resursis imedad aris, ukrainam ki ugulebelyo es wesi, daufiqreblad, gare Zalebis dapirebebis amara CaerTo am sisxlismRvrel konfliqtSi da uzarmazari materialuri da adamianuri resursi gaswira.
– arc putins aZlevs xels omis dasasruleba.
– cxadia, magram Tu daasrula, humanur pirobebs ar SesTavazebs ukrainas, waglejs yvelafers, razedac xeli miuwvdeba. teritoriebs waiRebs, natos Temas saerTod moxsnis da zRvaze gasasvlel derefnebs daitovebs. am molaparakebebze putini zelenskisTvis komfortuli partniori ar iqneba.
– Tuki omi dasruldeba, ruseTs mouxsnian dakisrebul sanqciebs?
– trampis gaprezidentebis fonze rogor moiqceva dasavleTi, ukve Zneli saTqmelia. is uazro nabijebi, rac aqamde gadaidga, ufro liberaluri wreebisTvis iyo damaxasiaTebeli. arc aSS-s aZlevda xels omis dasruleba. igi cdilobda, ruseTs ar gaemarjva, magram arc damarcxebuliyo.
– es rogor unda gavigoT?
– baidenma sakmaod gvian, ukve omis dawyebis Semdeg aRmoaCina, rom msoflios aranairad ar aZlevda xels ruseTis daSla, radgan CineTi, ager, evropamde mova. Se mamacxonebulo, sanam oms daiwyebdi, ver daxede rukas?! Tan aq xom mxolod amerika ar iyo CarTuli? – germania, safrangeTi da sxva. . . amxela qveynebma gadadges aseTi daufiqrebeli nabijebi. axla ar ician, ra qnan, rogor moaxerxon, rom ruseTma arc gaimarjvos, magram arc damarcxdes. imedia, trampi gamoZebnis gzas.
– ruseTi gacilebiT Zlieri gaxda, vidre omis dawyebamde iyo, sanqciebma sapirispiro efeqti gamoiRo.
– diax, asea, arada, `eseni~ amas arc angariSobdnen, axla imas cdiloben, ruseTi ar daiSalos. saqarTvelos mTavrobas dRemde magidaze mjiRs urtyamen, sanqciebi daaweseo, arada, Tavad axlac ruseTidan yiduloben ukve gaZvirebul, mesame qveynebis gavliT miRebul energomatareblebs. aba, riTi gazarda ruseTma Semosavlebi?
– rac Seexeba israel–iranis konfliqts?
– varaudoben, rom aSS CaerTveba iranTan dapirispirebaSi, magram me mainc mgonia, rom es omaxiani SeZaxilebi ufroa. orive mxare erTmaneTs emuqreba, raketebsac uSveben ise, rom minimaluri msxverpli hqondeT. sakuTar xalxs vaJkacur angariSebs abareben, magram realurad cdiloben, ar gaaRizianon aSS. rogorc iqna, galRva dawesebuli sanqciebis yinuli, irans gamouCnda dasavleTis bazarze gasvlis perspeqtiva, razec aqamde verc iocnebebda, radgan embargos meSveobiT Caketes. irans ekonomikis gasaZliereblad ara omi, Tavisufali vaWroba sWirdeba da ar unda awyobdes SeiaraRebuli konfliqti israelTan, romelic, faqtobrivad, aSS-is warmomadgenelia. am Serbilebas isic adasturebs, rom prezidentad airCies dasavleTis mimarT loialuri, principuli reformisti, eqimi masud fezeSqiani. aqedan gamomdinare, vfiqrob, ar gamwvavdeba konfliqti iqamde, rom grZeli fesvebi da totebi gaikeTos.
– amerikis SeerTebuli Statebis yofilma prezidentma jer kidev saqarTvelos saparlamento arCevnebis Catarebamde uTxra uari Cvens premiers miRebaze, evrokavSiric sakmaod ubadruki mtkicebulebebiT cdilobs saqarTvelos CamoSorebas, imuqreba savizo reJimis gauqmebiT. . . iseTi STabeWdileba mrCeba, rom ruseT–amerikam moilaparakes da msoflio gadanawilebis procesSi saqarTvelo, rogorc yovelTvis, ruseTs Seatoves. . .

– gmadlobT, stereotipebisgan Tavisufali SekiTxvisTvis. yvela saubrobs aSS-ruseTis dapirispirebaze da ara aliansze, arada, es aliansi ar aris arc pirveli, arc axali da arc haerSi gamokidebuli. jer kidev rodis mimarTa henri kisinjerma (amerikeli saxelmwifo moRvawe, diplomati, saerTaSoriso urTierTobebis eqsperti) am ori saxelmwifos meTaurebs, ar daejaxoT es ori polusi – sabWoTa kavSiri da aSS erTmaneTs, dasxediT, moilaparakeT da gadainawileT msoflioo. Zalian xSirad, marTlac, am mimarTulebiT midis procesebi, erTmaneTs epaeqrebian, vis ramden da romel teritoriaze ra gavlena eqneba. magaliTad, jer kidev 1955 wels, natosTan dasapirispireblad, varSavis xelSekrulebiT megobrobis, TanamSromlobisa da urTierTdaxmarebis mizniT, samxedro kavSiri Seqmna sabWoTa kavSirma. es faqti imitom gavixsene, rom Tuki zesaxelmwifoebi erTmaneTs ar artyamen da sakuTar Zalebs momxreebiT da teritoriebze gavlenis sferoebiT zomaven, maSin saqarTvelosac SegviZlia mivuCinoT adgili am sqemaSi. kerZod, 2003 wels feradi revoluciebis erT-erTi saxeoba – vardebis revoluciis scenari dawera amerikelma pensionerma jin Sarpma, romelsac hqonda Camowerili mTeli samoqmedo gegma Tavisi televiziebiT, enjeoebiT, axalgazrdebis roliT da a.S. anu is yvelaferi, rac vnaxeT. . . ar elodnen amerikelebi, magram ra enaRvlebodaT, mosinjes da Tavadac gaocdnen warmatebebiT. maSin ganacxada mama sorosma, eqsperimenti gamovidao. gaukvirda buSsac, imdenad, rom amxela figura Camovida saqarTveloSi – gaxarebuli iyo, mitingze Tqva, aseTi revoluciebiT avRaneTamde mivalTo. anu mTeli kontinentis gakontroleba mounda, magram aqac erTi saintereso detali iyo, es gavlena unda gaeyo ruseTisTvisac. ase gadatexa kisinjeris formula buSma, gadainawila ruseTTan rolebi: finansebiT Tu scenariT amerika Sedioda qveynebSi, xolo xalxis mobilizacias ruseTis specsamsaxurebi axdenda. . . magram Semdeg, amerikam yirgizeTSi rom moawyo igive scenariT revolucia, aRmoaCina, rom putini ar ibneva, Tavis xalxs svams am qveynebis saTaveSi da `adurakebs~ amerikelebs. ukrainaSi timoSenkos rom aujanydnen da cixeSi Casves, swored ruseTisTvis ukrainuli miwebis miyidva daumtkices. maSin gaielva am versiam, ruseTi xom ar TamaSobda ukrainaSi, arada, swored im dros iq amerikac TamaSobda. aqeT, saqarTveloSi rom SemovixedoT, analogiur suraTs davinaxavT, ubralod, unda gavixsenoT visi biZa ijda xolme ministrTa kabinetis sxdomebze saqarTveloSi. es ar iyo mxolod qarTuli movlena, ubralod, ruseTi da amerika erTobodnen Cvens teritoriebze. . . rogorc iqna, movedi Tqveni kiTxvis pasuxTan: axlac maTi interesebi emTxveva erTmaneTs.
– raSi emTxveva?
– CineTis gaCereba unda amerikas, radgan misTvis realuri konkurentia ekonomikis TvalsazrisiT. am mxriv, ruseTs konkurentad ar moiazrebs, masTan ufro sababs eZebs saCxubrad. . . aqedan, ruseTsac unda CineTis Caketva, rom am ukanasknelma ar gaiaros kavkasiaSi, radgan kargad icis, CrdiloeT kavkasias uceb gadaivlis, gadava samxreTiT da Sav zRvas miadgeba. es arc amerikas unda da arc ruseTs, radgan trilioniani tvirTebi gava saqarTveloze. Tanac, isic gaiTvaliswineT, rom aSS-s arc evropis winsvla surs.
– am dros evropa ra pozicias ikavebs?
– ai, xom arian TiTqos Wkvianebi, iseT dReSi Caigdes Tavi sakuTari daufiqrebeli moqmedebebiT da viTomda ruseTis sanqcirebiT, energomatareblebis safasurs veRar ixdian da krizisi ewyebaT. sisuleleebis keTebaSi cxovreba xels ar giSlis, magram sabolood arafers gpatiobs da yvelafers gazRvevinebs. swored es daemarTa dRes evropas. amerikam wamoikida mTeli evropa da muxlebze daaCoqa. . .
– raSi sWirdeboda amerikas evropis dasja, isini xom erTad moiazrebian demokratiis sadarajoze?
– arc ise martivadaa saqme, rogorc garedan Cans. safrangeTma da germaniam bolos mouxSires gancxadebebis keTebas: `amerikam Tavis Tavs mouaros da evropam – Tavisas~, SemoiRes sakuTari valuta, saubrobdnen natos SeiaraRebis gaZvirebaze da sxv. rac niSnavda amerikis Tavidan moSorebis mcdelobas. brma unda yofiliyo amerika, rom ver daenaxa es yvelaferi da. . . ra qna? xeli Seuwyo ukrainaSi omis gaCaRebas, Semdeg ki sadaveebi gadaabara evropas – miawodeT zelenskis iaraRi da saxsrebi, Torem Tu ruseTma moigo, Tqven mogadgebaTo, anu safrTxobelad putini gamoiyena. daiwyo evropam ukrainis daxmareba da. . . gawyda welSi.
– rac Seexeba saqarTvelos, ra perspeqtivebi gvaqvs?
– ar vici, sxvaTa Soris, mandac ramdenime versiaa. Tu trampma gaagrZela CineTTan Widaobis politika, rasac pirveli prezidentobis dros daudo saTave, maSin Cvenc migvayolebs, radgan ukve gvaqvs partnioroba CineTTan, romelic did investiciebs debs saqarTveloSi. aqve isic aRsaniSnavia, rom Cven xels gvaZlevs es rogorc ekonomikurad, ise politikurad.
– politikurad?
– diax, radgan Tu davakvirdebiT, ruseTi CineTs `SenobiT~ ver elaparakeba anu ver ekamaTeba. aSS-s, evropas, sxvebs eCxubeba, pretenziebs uyenebs, xolo CineTTan, imis miuxedavad, rom naxevari cimbiri waiRo, xmas ver iRebs.
– da Cven `cud dReSi~ ratom aRmovCndebiT?
– Tuki amerikam miznad daisaxa CineTTan `Widaoba~, kavkasiaze gamsvleli gza iqneba asafeTqebeli da iseve rogorc baideni, trampic ecdeba aq xelisuflebis cvlilebas. amas mohyveba revoluciebi, oms rom eZaxis `ocnebis~ xalxi. . . aqedan gamomdinare, amerikas awyobs destabilizacia. aba Slagbaums xom ver daayenebs am gzaze (Slagbaumi aris omi, am SemTxvevaSi. – r.s.)?!
– destabilizacias opoziciis saSualebiT moawyobs?
– rogorc Cans, cdilobda opoziciis daxmarebiT, magram ver aRmoCnda Cveni opozicia amdenad efeqturi, imitom iZaxdnen ivaniSvili da kobaxiZe, opozicia cdilobs xelisuflebis Secvlaso. pedalirebas imaze akeTebdnen, rom saqarTvelos unda hyavdes sakuTari xalxis mier arCeuli xelisufleba da ara garedan daniSnuli.
– Tuki ar cno evrokavSirma arCevnebi, yvelaferi isev destabilizaciisken wava?
– ara, ar wava. ikveTeba iseTi situacia, romelic Zalian saintereso suraTs qmnis. Seiqmna `briksi~, swrafad ganviTarebadi ekonomikis mqone qveynebis gaerTianeba, romelSic brazilia, ruseTi, indoeTi, CineTi da samxreT afrikis respublika gaerTiandnen. msoflio mzardi SeSfoTebiT akvirdeba, ramdenad mZimed Seutevs giganturi ekonomikisa da kidev ufro didi ambiciebis mqone `briksi~ msoflio wesrigs. evropaze ganawyenebuli qveynebi ukve midian misken. . . magaliTad, TurqeTi. . . alternativis gaCena Cvenc gvawyobs, radgan SesaZlebelia, saqarTvelomac es gza arCios, magram darwmunebuli var, ar wavalT aqeTken. . . putini rom movida, ivaniSvili wamovida da 9 weli WorvilaSi uCinrad ijda. biZinas ar aZlevs xels putinTan urTierToba.
– aba, putinis kaciao, rom amboben?
– raSi gamoixateba es, vin ambobs?!
– opozicia. . .
– (icinis gulianad – i.c.) opoziciam, aba, ra unda Tqvas?!.