გია აბაშიძე: კარგი არ არის დემოკრატიისთვის, როდესაც ოპოზიცია ასეთი უპრინციპო, უსუსური და არათანმიმდევრულია
saqarTvelos da aSS-is prezidentebis Sexvedra-misalmebis Sesaxeb, qveynis saSinao da sagareo politikasa da ekonomikis perspeqtivebze saubrobs `aWarasTan~ eqskluziur interviuSi politologi gia abaSiZe.
– batono gia, romis papis dakrZalvaze trampis da yavelaSvilis Sexvedra kviris Tema gaxda. rogor axsniT maT ucnaur gadakveTas am sivrceSi?
– daviwyoT iqidan, rom vatikanis protokolma gadawyvita tribunis pirvel rigSi daesva sxvadasxva qveynis meTaurebi alfavitis mixedviT. amisTvis gamoiyenes franguli diplomatiuri enis anbani. Sedegad, jorjia-saqarTvelo avtomaturad moeqca pirveli rigis SemadgenlobaSi. iq ganlagdnen qveynebis prezidentebi da ara – premier-ministrebi. es kategoria avtomaturad moeqca meore-mesame rigSi. rac Seexeba Cveni prezidentis trampTan Sexvedras, CemTvis yvelaze sarwmuno wyaro gaxlavT staJiani avtoritetuli sainformacio saagentos `asoSieitid presis~ fotomasalebi, maTTan gamoricxulia montaJi da sxva tipis yalTabandoba, xolo is rakursebi, romelic opoziciurma mediam da radikalma opozicionerebma gaavrceles, sicruea. amaze insinuaciebi: `Sexvedra ar yofila~, Tu `xeli sxvas auwia,~ – gaumarTlebelia, es aris Zalian mdabio spekulaciebi, meti araferi.
– zelenskis da trampis gancalkevebul Sexvedraze bevri varaudi gamoiTqva. ras fiqrobT, Tu moxdeba dadebiTi Zvrebi omis dasrulebis kuTxiT. . . amjerad, TiTqos putini gadawia trampma ukana planze. . .
– aRsaniSnavia erTi faqtic: vatikanma, albaT, isev da isev amerikis karnaxiT, dakrZalvis ceremoniaze erTmaneTisgan Sors dasva zelenski da trampi. . . mogexsenebaT, ukrainasTan dakavSirebiT urTulesi situaciaa, xolo zelenskis mdgomareoba gasagebia. dasavleTis araerT seriozul gamocemaSi, araerTxel iTqva, rom SeerTebuli Statebi (da ara ukraina) aRiarebs yirimis ruseTis kuTvnilebaSi gadacemas, anu aRmosavleT ukrainas nawili CamoeWreba da ruseTis mmarTvelobaSi gadava. winaswar SeuZlebelia teritoriebis gadanawilebaze saubari, magram am nabijze wasvla, ara mxolod zelenskis, nebismieri qveynis mmarTvelisTvis politikuri TviTmkvleloba iqneboda. am SemTxvevaSi, zelenkis daupirispirdebian Tavad ukrainelebi, pirdapir etyvian: Tu teritoriebi CamogvarTves, yirimi aSS-ma aRiara, neitralitets vacxadebT, rac natoSi gawevrianebas gamoricxavs, evrokavSirSi Sesvla, Tavad evroliderebis gancxadebiT, Soreuli perspeqtivaa, maSin risTvis daiRupa amdeni adamiani, risTvis ganadgurda qveyana da a.S. trampis da zelenskis saubari konkretulad ras Seexo, jer ar gaxmaurebula, Tumca aqve xazi unda gavusvaT trampis xist diplomatias. kerZod, am Sexvedraze ar daiswro makronic ki. zelenskis mogvianebiT Sexvdnen safrangeTis, italiis, didi britaneTis Tu evroparlamentis liderebi. rac Seexeba putins, igi agrZelebs ukrainis daundobel dabombvas da iTxovs zelenskisTan pirispir Sexvedras damamcirebel da wamgebian poziciebze dasaTanxmeblad. cxadia, yvelas warmogvidgenia, ra damokidebuleba aqvs ukrainis elitas ruseTis Cinovnikebis mimarT. aqedan gamomdinare, ar aris gamoricxuli, rom ver SeTnaxmdebian da molaparakebebi Tu CxubSi ar gadaizrdeba, CaiSleba mainc. iq mediatori namdvilad dasWirdebaT. SexvedraSi evropelebis CarTva gamoiricxa, radgan trampi acaxdebs, rom omis Tema misi mosagvarebelia. . . mokled rom vTqvaT, urTulesi situacia iqmneba. rac ufro iweleba konfliqtis mogvareba, ufro wamgebian mdgomareobaSi vardeba ukraina. zelenskis ukve gamouCnda seriozuli oponenti, kievis meri vitali kliCko, romelic acxadebs, rom mouwevT rigi teritoriebis daTmoba. . . ukve aTwleulebia, qarTvelebma kargad viciT, es ra mtkivneuli Temaa. isic viciT, ras niSnavs gayinuli konfliqtebi, JenevaSi Sexvedrebi SexvedrebisTvis, furclebi, deklaraciebi, yovelgvari realuri gadawyvetilebis da Sedegis gareSe rom rCebi. . . ase rom, jer kidev gaugebaria, ra da rogor mogvardeba.
– mmarTveli gundi acxadebs, rom trampis gunds da saqarTvelos mmarTvel partias Tanmxvedri dRis wesrigi aqvT saxelmwifoebis, erovnuli Rirebulebebisa da faseulobebis dacvaze. . . sabolood rogor ganviTardeba am ori qveynis urTierToba?
– `qarTuli ocneba~, iseve rogorc ungreTis mmarTveli wreebi, trampis garemocvis msgavs ideologiebs iziarebs. swored amitom, jer kidev ramdenime wlis win miiwvies RaribaSvili konservatorTa saerTaSoriso konferenciaze, anu Rirebulebebi Tanmxvedria, magram aqve unda aRiniSnos isic, rom amerikis politikuri istebliSmenti sakmaod Wrelia da Sedgeba rogorc demokratebis, ise respublikelebisgan. demokratebi arian kongresis orive palataSi da saxelmwifo departamentSi. aqve ismis kiTxva, Tu Cveni qveyana e.w. izolaciaSia, maSin ratom daiwyo estafeta aSS-is elCma maka boWoriSvilTan SexvedriT, axlac, vice-premieri, finansTa ministri da erovnuli bankis lideri CaerTnen vaSingtonSi amerikel kolegebTan molaparakebebSi. rodesac viRacis ignorireba ginda pirad urTierTobaSi, politikur sibrtyeSi Tu biznessivrceSi, aranair Sexvedrebs ar awyob, fotoebs mediaSi ar avrceleb da mravalsaaTian molaparakebebs ar awarmoeb. es yvelaferi, cxadia, imedis momcemia. aqve xazgasmiT minda vTqva, rom aSS-is politikuri wreebic sakmaod araerTgvarovania. iq arian neoliberalebi – demokratebis saxiT da arian respublikelebi, romlebic aerTianeben konservatorebsac da neoliberalebsac. amitom tramps Tavad hyavs dasamarcxebeli es dip steiti (termini `dip steiti~ gulisxmobs mTavrobis, samxedro an sxva politikuri subieqtebis Zlieri da gavleniani wevrebis savaraudo Crdilovan qsels), romelTanac brZola daiwyo kidec. mis mier gacxadebuli dRis wesrigia – mSvidobismyofeli prezidentis imijis Camoyalibeba konfliqtebis dasrulebis gziT, axali konfliqtis kerebis Caqroba da sakuTari teritoriuli pretenziebis dakmayofileba. trampi msxvili biznesidan modis, is bunebiT mtacebeli biznesmenia da igives akeTebs saerTaSoriso politikaSic. aSkaraa, rom misi biznesinteresi gaivlis kavkasiazec. aq aRmosavleT-dasavleTis sakmaod perspeqtiuli derefani dinamikurad viTardeba, romlis mimarT pragmatuli biznesinteresi eqneba aSS-sac, xolo saqarTvelo, samxreT kavkasiis sxva qveynebTan erTad, mzadaa iqces samSvidobo kerad. mokled rom vTqvaT, perspeqtivebi damaimedebelia, Tumca rogorc yovelTvis, politikosebi ureven, gansakuTrebiT briuselSi da politikurad Wrel vaSingtonSi.
– axali satranzito marSrutebi saqarTveloze gadis da cxadia, rom TbilisTan uargumentod urTierTobis Tundac droebiT gafuWeba ar Sedis evropis qveynebis strategiul interesebSi. mainc ratom asanqcirebs evroparlamenti `qarTuli ocnebis~ elitas, nuTu aseTi didi gavlena aqvs masze opozicias?
– saqarTvelos radikalur opozicias didi gavlena ara aqvs da verc eqneba dasavleTis struqturebze, ubralod, `nacopoziciis~ da evroparlamentis rigi wevrebis interesebi emTxveva, maT saerTo miznebi amoZravebT. `nacebs~ surT mmarTvelobis sadaveebis dabruneba dasavleTTan vasaluri damokidebulebis gziT. igive undaT briuselis maRalCinosnebsac, xolo rodesac maT saqarTvelo „eurCeba“, iyeneben nebismier sababs: `rusul kanons~ Tu `gaJonil arCevnebs~. axla rusTavelze mimdinareobs brZola sakuTari interesebisTvis, magram, saboloo jamSi, yvelafers gadawonis ekonomika da biznesi.
– Tu SeiZleba daakonkreteT?
– axlaxan, aprilis dasawyisSi, Cveni partniori qveynis liderma alievma xmamaRla ganacxada: `evropis 12 qveyanas vawvdiT energomatareblebs saqarTvelos gavliT, romlis energetikasa da satransporto sistemaSi didi investiciebi CavdeT. aqedan gamomdinare, saqarTvelos ignorireba piradad CemTvis, miuRebelia~. amiT yvelaferia naTqvami: vfiqrob, evrokratiaSi sabolood gaimarjvebs pragmatuli azrovneba da mixvdebian, rom qveynis mmarTveli wreebis damorCilebisTvis ideologiur brZolas, aranairi Sedegi ar mohyveba. sabolood xom evropam unda miiRos aqedan wasuli tvirTebi, eleqtroenergia, gazi, navTobi da sxv. am etapze mimdinareobs Widili evropasa da aSS-is axal administracias Soris. sasworzea ruseT-ukrainis omi da gavlenis sferoebis mopoveba msoflioSi, maT Soris, kavkasiaSic. . . am derefniT ixeirebs evropis qveynebi, romelTa warmomadgenlebic sxedan axla evroparlamentSi. ase rom, sabolood, briusels mouwevs sakuTari amomrCevlebis sarfiani biznesebis wina planze dayeneba saqarTveloSi ararsebuli problemebis Ziebis sanacvlod.
– `qarTulma ocnebam~ `nacmoZraobis~ gauqmeba gadado da TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebSi monawileobis ufleba misca. riTi axsniT am gadawyvetilebas, ukan daixies Tu? . .
– me ver vxedav veraviTar `gadadebas~. parlamentis sagamoZiebo komisiis daskvnis safuZvelze, sakonstitucio sasamarTlosa da prokuraturaSi Seva sarCelebi saTanado reagirebisTvis. mamuka mdinaraZem garkveviT Tqva, rom politikuri gadawyvetileba arCevnebamde miRebuli iqneba, magram radgan sakonstitucio sasamarTlos aRar aqvs Zveli nacnotariusuli funqcia, oriod dReSi ver gadawyvets ama Tu im partiis gauqmebas, TvisTavad, garkveuli vada sWirdeba. Sesabamisad, kalendarulad, 4 oqtombramde, oficialuri ufleba aqvs yvela partias, Tanabrad CaerTos arCevnebSi, Tuki ar daiwyeben boikotirebas. ase rom, partiis akrZalva politikurad ki ara, samarTlebrivad gadaideba.
– Tuki im partiis wevrebs airCeven sakrebuloebSi, romelsac Semdgom sakonstitucio sasamarTlo akrZalavs, xalxis rCeulebs ra gza rCebaT?
– wavawydebiT samarTlebrivad CaxlarTul problemas. aq rCeba ori gza, pirovneba an sxva partiaSi gadava, an damoukidebel deputatad darCeba, Tuki ar daekisreba sisxlis samarTlis pasuxismgebloba. cxadia, partiis gareT darCenili politikosebi izruneben axali partiis iuridiulad gaformebaze, romelic ifunqcionirebs kriminalebis gareSe.
– am kviraSi TvalSi sacemi iyo `isrebis gadatana~ gaxariaze, rogorc `ocnebis~, aseve, opoziciis mier. Tqveni SefasebiT, ras apirebs yofili premieri?
– giorgi gaxaria Tavad ver garkveula, romel sibrtyeSi unda imyofebodes. mas aqvs iluzia, rom aris alternatiuli Zala. man uari ar Tqva arc saparlamento mandatebze da arc dafinansebaze, rac miuTiTebs, rom Segnebulad welavs dros maisis romelime konkretul TariRamde, raTa Sevides parlamentSi raRac motivaciiT. erT-erT teleeTerSi man ganacxada, rom miiRebs monawileobas adgilobrivi TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebSi, xolo Semdeg misma Tanagundelebma am naTqvamis utrireba moaxdines, TiTqos arasworad gaigo mayurebelma. mokled rom vTqvaT, Tavad ar icis, ra unda. Tuki mandatebi Cauxsnes, mis partias moexsneba saxelmwifo dafinanseba, verc aqtivistebs gadauxdis da verc ofisebs iqiravebs. gaqreba, rogorc politikuri Zala. isic gavixsenoT, rogor akritikebda opozicia euTos generaluri mdivnis TbilisSi vizits, gaxaria ki Sexvda mas. Semdeg sxvebic, anu aqac gaugebrobaa. . . saerTod ki, Tu boikoti gamoucxades da ar cnoben Cvens arCevnebs arc opozicia da arc evroparlamenti, maSin ratom monawileoben politikur, ekonomikur da sxva formatSi? es xom alogikuria?
– ra bedi elodeba salome zurabiSvilis egidiT Seqmnil `erTobis~ platformas?
– marTlac tragikomikuri sibere Seiqmna salome zurabiSvilma, amJamad TviTmarqvia prezidentma. orbelianis sasaxlidan saprezidento droSebi waayola xels, rasac qurdoba hqvia. xalxi xumrobs, kidev kargi Jana darkad ar acxadebs sakuTar personaso. am asakovanma qalma aseT situaciaSi ratom Caigdo Tavi, ar mesmis. Tavad opoziciac TviTmarqviad moixseniebs mis mier liderobis mcdelobas saqarTvelos opoziciur velze. es yvelaferi absurduli mocemulobaa. kargi ar aris demokratiisTvis, rodesac opozicia aseTi uprincipo, ususuri da araTanmimdevrulia.
– ra perspeqtivebi gaaCnia saqarTvelos ekonomikas mimdinare politikuri krizisis fonze da saerTod, SeiZleba Tu ara vuwodoT politikuri krizisi arsebul situacias?
– saqarTveloSi politikuri krizisis arsebobas kategoriulad ar veTanxmebi, radgan politikuri krizisis ganmarteba gulisxmobs viTarebas, rodesac masobrivad gaficulia saxelmwifo instituciebi, sajaro samsaxurebis TanamSromlebi da sxv. dRes saqarTveloSi aris mwvave politikuri daZabuloba da ara krizisi. Tu SevxedavT msoflio bankis, saerTaSoriso savaluto fondis Sefasebebs da prognozebs, saprotesto talRebis miuxedavad, arc Tu ise cud viTarebaSi varT. cifrebi metyvelebs, rom ekonomika viTardeba, dovlaTi izrdeba. marTalia, SeiZleba es bevris jibeze da safuleze jer ar asaxula, magram faqtia isic, rom bumia turistul seqtorSi, mravalmiliardiani investiciebi Semodis Tbilissa da baTumSi, rac warmatebis udavo mimaniSnebelia. miliardebs ar Cadeben im qveyanaSi, sadac realuri politikuri krizisia. ase rom, perspeqtiva damaimedebelia. rac mTavaria, mSvidoba da stabiluroba SenarCunebulia, rogorc qveynis winsvlis garanti, albaT, gaucnobiereblad (radgan aprotesteben), magram mainc sargeblobs am keTildReobiT `qarTuli ocnebis~ mimarT opoziciurad ganwyobili mosaxleobac. yvelas aqvs patara Tu didi biznesi, ojaxis wevrebi dasaqmebuli hyavT, cxovrebis done izrdeba, bavSvebi skolaSi, universitetebSi Tu bavSvTa baRebSi hyavT, uqmeebs kurortebze atareben. . . es sayovelTao sargebeli xom waiSleboda omis da SeiaraRebuli konfliqtebis pirobebSi?!
irma cecxlaZe