“მათი ხელისუფლება იყო დამყარებული შიშზე, დაპატიმრებული პიროვნების დემორალიზაციაზე, მის უსიტყვო მორჩილებაზე . . .”
ირმა ცეცხლაძე: 27 48 93 –
aWaris umaRlesi sabWos deputati, adamianis uflebaTa dacvis sakiTxTa komitetis Tavmjdomare cotne ananiZe CvenTan interviuSi yofili prezidentis dapatimrebasa da misi janmrTelobis mdgomareobaze saubrobs da paralels avlebs saakaSvilisdroindel sasjelaRsrulebis dawesebulebebTan, sadac Tavadac moxvda, rogorc politpatimari.
– batono cotne, axlo warsulSi gadavinacvloT – ra grZnoba dageuflaT, rodesac gaigeT im kacis dapatimrebis Sesaxeb, romelmac araerTi wliT SegifardaT patimroba, radgan ar eTanxmebodiT mis politikur Sexedulebebs?
– me ufro adreul grZnobebsac gavixseneb. saakaSvilis reJimis dros, wlebis ganmavlobaSi, Cven – opoziciaSi myofi pirebi xSirad vambobdiT, rom kaci, romelmac Seqmna adamianis uflebebis da Tavisuflebis, sakuTrebis winaaRmdeg sistemuri danaSaulis uzrunvelmyofi meqanizmi, aucileblad aRmoCndeba sabraldebo skamze da mouwevs pasuxisgeba qveynis da eris winaSe. amas veubnebodiT Sexvedrebze mosul mosaxleobas da ucxoeTis dainteresebul organizaciebs, romlebic muSaobdnen adamianis uflebebisa da Tavisuflebis sakiTxebze. jer kidev maSin davafiqsireT bevri danaSauli, romlebic xSirad xdeboda rogorc politikosTa, maTi dajgufebebis, ise kerZo biznesis, kritikuli mediis warmomadgenelTa mimarT. maT Soris iyo personaluri konfliqtis safuZvelze warmoqmnili davebic, romelic arasaxarbielod (rbilad rom vTqvaT) sruldeboda im konkretuli pirisTvis, vinc gabedavda da xmas amoiRebda saakaSvilis sxvadasxva tipis interesis sawinaaRmdegod. mas ar sWirdeboda saRi azri, erTaderTi ganmsazRvreli faqtori iyo misi sakuTari xedva da gadawyvetileba, romelic upirobod unda Seesrulebina nebismiers. amaTgan gamorCeuli iyo sandro girgvlianis saqme, romelic tragikulad dasrulda. yvelafers ver gavixsenebT, magram axla, rodesac miSa dapatimrebulia, ismis kiTxva – saakaSvili politikuri aqtivobis gamoa daWerili Tu danaSaulTa nakrebze agebs pasuxs im sazogadoebis winaSe, romelic Tavis droze gminavda misi diqtaturis qveS?
– es kiTxva dRes yvelaze aqtualuria, Tumca Tavad iciT, ra pasuxi aqvs rogorc `pozicias~, ise opozicias.
– Tavi davaneboT mis, rogorc politikuri figuris daxasiaTebas, politikur gadacdomebze saubars da obieqturad vimsjeloT – gadmoviRoT sadamkvirveblo konkretuli angariSebi, maT Soris, saxalxo damcvelis, Tu ra xdeboda sasjelaRsrulebis sistemaSi, prokuraturaSi, sasamarTloSi, rogor eqceodnen kritikul medias, gansxvavebuli azris mqone adamians an im bizness, romlis SemosavliTac dainteresdebodnen – yvela am SemTxvevaSi xdeboda danaSauli. aqedan gamomdinare, vigrZeni samarTali, rodesac saakaSvili vixile sabraldebo skamze, radgan iq zis ara politikuri Sexedulebebis da gadacdomebis gamo, aramed im danaSaulis gamo, rac misi mmarTvelobis dros ganxorcielda.
– Tqven kargad iciT, ra xdeboda maSin cixeebSi. nuTu iolad kmayofildeboda natanj-nawamebi patimrebis klinikaSi gadayvanis moTxovna?
– ras ambobT, saerTod ar idga es sakiTxi. rogori penitenciuri dawesebulebebi iyo maSin da ra xdeboda, mTelma saqarTvelom ixila, rodesac gaasajaroves iq gadaRebuli konkretuli kadrebi. aqedan daiwyo saakaSvilis reJimis dasasrulis dasawyisi. Cemi patimrobis drosac saSinelebebi xdeboda, magram ar iyo iseTi simZafris, 2012 wlis arCevnebis wina dReebSi rom aCvenes.
– am kadrebze isic iTqva, rom damontaJebuli hqondaT da sruliadac ar Seesabameboda simarTleso.
– es axla amtkiceben amas, magram maSin mTelma saqarTvelom daijera, iciT ratom? imitom rom bevrma icoda iq rac xdeboda sinamdvileSi, magram ver acxadebda. adamiani ijerebs ama Tu im faqts, arsebuli realobidan gamomdinare. am kadrebis xilviT Sokirebuli iyo sazogadoeba, magram aravis gasCenia azri, rom fabrikacia iyo. arc e.w. karantinis wesi dauyenebiaT eWvqveS . . . umowyalod scemdnen da uswordebodnen xelborkildadebul umweo adamians samarTaldamcvelebad Seracxuli jalaTebi.
– raSi sWirdebodaT aseTi angariSsworeba, yvelas ase eqceodnen?
– TiTqmis yvelas, radgan maTi xelisufleba iyo damyarebuli SiSze, dapatimrebuli pirovnebis demoralizaciaze, mis usityvo morCilebaze da ara resocializaciaze, razec unda muSaobdnen penitenciur dawesebulebebSi. sazogadoebam kargad icoda, rac eloda mas, vinc cixeSi moxvdeboda, amitom yvela yvelafers Tmobda, ar uCndeboda protestis grZnoba, cdilobda gadaexada uzarmazari Tanxebi, raTa Tavad an misi ojaxis romelime wevri ar moxvedriliyo cixeSi, iq, sadac mas yvela doneze gauswordeboda saakaSviliseuli sadamsjelo manqana. msgavsi meqanizmi didxniani efeqtiT ver gamoirCeva da swored amitom agorda saprotesto talRa. saakaSvilma sakuTari konkretuli qmedebebis gamo miiRo sazogadoebis siZulvili. protests win uZRoda uamravi ukanonod gamotanili sasamarTlo ganaCeni, romelic Zalian bevr ojaxs Seexo saqarTveloSi da Sekra ukmayofiloTa talRa, romelmac gadafara maSindeli diqtatoruli reJimi da myisierad Secvala miSas xelisufleba.
– rasac hyvebiT da rac gagvigonia, ar jdeba aranair CarCoebSi, magram ramdenad samarTlianad migaCniaT amJamindeli xelisuflebis damokidebuleba patimar saakaSvilisadmi?
– adamianis uflebebisa da Tavisuflebis ganviTarebis sxva etapze vimyofebiT da, ra Tqma unda, nebismier damnaSaves, patimars, adamians, imis miuxedavad, mogvwons Tu ara misi pirovneba, biografia, politikuri xedva da pozicia, gaaCnia uflebebi, romelic yvela SemTxvevaSi unda iyos gaTvaliswinebuli da daculi. iseve rogorc sxva patimrebi, saakaSvilic sargeblobs resocializaciisTvis dawesebuli pirobebiT, rac patimarTa Sesaxeb kodeqsiT miniWebuli yvela uflebis realizacias gulisxmobs. kanonis winaSe yvelas Tanasworoba swored es aris. dauSvebelia patimrebis diskriminacia, uflebebis Selaxva an romelime maTganisTvis privilegiis miniWeba, rasac xSirad iTxoven saxelmwifosgan opoziciur mimarTvebSi. aqve xazgasmiT aRvniSnav, rom TavisTavad, ar unda gaCndes kiTxvebi iq, sadac saqme patimris humanur mopyrobas exeba.
– opozicia, rodesac iTxovda saakaSvilis kerZo klinikaSi gadayvanas, apelirebda imiT, rom masze ufro nakleb sagangaSo mdgomareobaSi myofi patimrebis didi nawili sargeblobda am uflebiT. amiT, erTi mxriv, xazs usvamdnen yofili prezidentis mimarT araSemwynareblur damokidebulebas, Tumca aqve aRiarebdnen, rom amJamindeli penitenciuri sistema yofilze gacilebiT humanuri da demokratiulia.
– Zalian kargi, Tu opozicia Tavad saubrobs amaze imis miuxedavad, rom es naTqvami sakuTar liderze zewolis dasamtkiceblad gamoiyena, radgan erTia, rodesac xelisufleba acxadebs pozitiur Zvrebs, xolo meore – opoziciis mier Seswavlili faqtebi da aRnusxuli realoba. iseTi ambavi atexes me-18 dawesebulebaSi saakaSvilis gadayvanaze, TiTqos raime uRirs daxmarebaze iyo saqme. Semdeg mixvdnen, rom arafer cuds ar sTavazobdnen Tavidanve da misma uflebadamcvelma nika gvaramiam gamoacxada saakaSvilis xmamaRali Tanxmoba goris hospitalSi gadayvanaze. es cxadia, ukve gulisxmobda SimSilobis Sewyvetas, razec daTanxmda kidec saakaSvili.
– mainc raze atyda ZiriTadad aJiotaJi, mis dapatimrebaze Tu SimSilobaze?
– principSi, mxolod ori ZiriTadi moTxovna hqonda saakaSvils, romelic gamoikveTa am gadasaxedidan. erTi iyo hospitalSi gadayvana, meore – daswreboda sakuTar sasamarTlo process. rogor iciT, misi orive moTxovna dakmayofilebulia. mogexsenebaT, mokvleva daasrula saxelmwifo inspeqtormac. igi am mimarTulebiT garkveul darRvevebze apelirebs. mimaCnia, rom yvela win wamoweul sakiTxs unda mieces obieqturi Sefaseba da ar dairRves patimris uflebebi.
– saqarTveloSi bevrs miaCnia, rom saakaSvili ar imsaxurebs aseT mopyrobas.
– Tuki raime tipis darRveva iqneba mis mimarT, yvela SemTxvevaSi unda gamoswordes. gvesmis, rom bevrs aqvs pretenzia, am xalxma ganicada udidesi danakargi, miiRo stresi, ganadgurda moralurad, fsiqologiurad Tu finansurad, cxovreba aeria. vici, isini ra dReSi arian, ras fiqroben. isic vici, rom gaaCniaT sakuTari obieqturi gancdebi, rac sul sxvagvari zomebis gatarebas gulisxmobs. maTi azriT, gacilebiT mkacr mopyrobas imsaxurebs saakaSvili, magram saxelmwifo damnaSaves unda moeqces ara ise, rogorc is imsaxurebs subieqturi TvalsazrisiT, aramed rogorc amas iTxovs kanoni. sasjelaRsrulebis dawesebulebaSi myof pirovnebas evropuli standartebiT aRiarebuli resocializaciaze orientirebuli servisebiT eqcevian. yvela patimars, rogorc ukve aRvniSne, sakuTari uflebebi gaaCnia, romlis dacva aris uaRresad mniSvnelovani, Tavad Cveni xelisuflebis demokratiulobis dasadastureblad.
– rogor SeafasebT saakaSvilis sityvas?
– Zalian aRaSfoTa da gaakvirva sazogadoeba saakaSvilis gancxadebam 7 noembris darbevasTan dakavSirebiT, rom TiTqos ar icoda, ra xdeboda moedanze, xolo rodesac gaigo, gzebs eZebda am xalxis gadasarCenad. man vano merabiSvils gadaabrala yvelaferi. msgavs tyuils aravin eloda, mgoni, arc misi momxreebi. vin daijera es, ar vici. msgavsi ram, Tanac ase utifrad gamocxadebuli, imdenad gasaocari iyo, rom ramdenime dRe ar Sewyvetila aRSfoTebuli gancxadebebi. kargia, rom mas misces amxela sityvis Tqmis ufleba. jer erTi, kidev erTxel damtkicda, rom Zalian janmrTelad grZnobda Tavs, Tanac zedized aRiara sakuTari danaSauli aramiznobriv xarjvasTan dakavSirebiT. nuTu daaviwyda, rom 7 noembers mohyva 8 noemberi, politrepresiebi, uamravi darbeva . . . iyo 6 maisi, rodesac scemes Jurnalistebi, operatorebi, sammarTvelosTan moxda Setakebebi . . . 21 maisi baTumSi, sadac me da Cemi megobrebi dagvakaves, daapatimres opoziciurad ganwyobili is pirebic, saerTod rom ar imyofebodnen aqciaze . . . 26 maisi, aRlumi rom Caibara da ori gardacvlili adamianis gvami saxuravze Semowyobili ipoves mogvianebiT. es kadrebi yvelas gvaxsovs, prezidentis fotografmac gadaiRo da Semdeg brali wauyenes jaSuSobisTvis am adamians . . . yvelafers axla ras gaixseneb. misi mmarTveloba saqarTvelosTvis iyo usaSinlesi periodi. yvelam vicodiT da axlac viciT, rom mTeli am sistemis fuZemdebeli da sulisCamdgmeli sxva aravin, TviT saakaSvili gaxldaT, romelic dRes ise dgas sasamarTlos winaSe, TiTqos mxolod gaflangvaSi edeba brali. daaviwyda nulovani tolerantobis politika, romelic oficialurad 2006 wlidan iRebs saTaves. sasamarTloze saakaSvilis kamaTSi Sesvlam amoativtiva misi drois sasamarTlos saqmeebis statistika, romelSic mtkicebulebebi ar arsebobda, magram gansasjelTa 99,9%-s hqonda gamotanili gamamtyunebeli ganaCeni. amas ewodeba koreis standarti, romelic moqmedebs represiebis gamtarebel, sakuTari xalxis mCagvrel saxelmwifoSi.
– Tqvenc saubrobT, TviTmxilvelebic, kadrebic aris saakaSvilis reJimis dros Catarebul uamrav sisxlian procesze, magram axla, rodesac miSa dapatimrebulia da mimdinareobs sasamarTlo procesi, edavebian biujetis saxsrebis aramiznobriv xarjvas. es, cota ar iyos, abnevs mosaxleobas.
– iciT ra, pirdapiri mtkicebulebebi am saqmeze ar arsebobs, xolo Cveni sasamarTlo ver ixelmZRvanelebs saakaSvilis mimarT misive meTodebiT. ar mikvirs im adamianebis, am kiTxvebs rom svamen, radgan marTlac uamravi borotmoqmedeba darCa dausjeli. rac Seexeba aramiznobriv xarjebs, Tanamedrove saxelmwifosTvis, Zalian mniSvnelovania, TiToeulma sajaro moxelem, rangis da Tanamdebobis miuxedavad, pasuxi agos nebismier finansur gadacdomaze. sxva formula ar arsebobs. qveyana unda ganviTardes da dauSvebelia zedmeti TeTris aramiznobrivad gaxarjvac ki. CvenisTana dabalganviTarebuli ekonomikis mqone qveynisTvis ki ara, mowinave finansuri saxelmwifoebisTvisac principulad dauSvebelia aramiznobrivi xarjebi. amas ar patioben aravis, rac unda zesaxelmwifos oficiozi iyos. evropasa da aSS-Si xSiria msgavsi tipis sasamarTlo procesebi, gadasaxadebis gadauxdelobis Tu biujetis fulis gaflangvis gamo. ekonomikuri danaSaulobebi yvelaze mkacrad isjeba. mTavaria, damadasturebeli dokumentacia daidos, danaSaulSi mxilebis standarti iyos maRali.
– ramdenad gjeraT saakSvilis mier SemoTavazebuli Serigebis?
– es aris misi strategiis nawili. jer mouwodebs sazogadoebas quCis aqciebisken, daumorCileblobisken, xolo rodesac praqtikulad ver aRwevs im Sedegs rac sWirdeba, maSinve iwyebs saubars kanonierebisa da mosalaparakebel magidasTan dasxdomis aucileblobaze. ase iqneba axlac. opoziciis radikaluri nawili kidev bevrjer Seicvlis pozicias, mTavaria, am dapirispirebebSi ar daviviwyoT, rom saakaSvili am etapze patimaria. unda davicvaT misi, rogorc adamianis uflebebi da ar davuSvaT patimris kodeqsiT gaTvaliswinebuli normebis darRveva.