მამუკა ხაზარაძე: საზოგადოება უნდა მიხვდეს, რომ მის ხელშია უზარმაზარი ძალაუფლება და ამ ძალაუფლებას უნდა შეკრება

íïòîï ôóüêïîïûå 27 48 93 –

mougvarebel problemaTa Soris umTavresi arastabiluri politikuri garemoa, ramac Cveni qveyana mravalmxriv daazarala rogorc politikuri, ise ekonomikuri TvalsazrisiT. am mimarTebiT qmediTi nabijebi mmarTvelma gundebma ver gadadges – yovel SemTxvevaSi, aseT azrs aviTareben opoziciis warmomadgenlebi, rasac emateba mZime socialuri foni, urTierTdapirispireba politikosebs Soris, aseve Cavardnili Tu dablokili zestrategiuli proeqtebi. ra mdgomareobaa qveyanaSi am mxriv, ra Secvala parlamentSi opoziciis Sesvlam, ramdenad mniSvnelovani iyo fasilitatorebis CarTuloba politikuri krizisis daZlevis kuTxiT, ra xdeba opoziciur flangze da ra strategia daisaxa partiam `lelo – saqarTvelosTvis~ saarCevnod? am da sxva mniSvnelovan sakiTxebze Tavis Sexedulebas gviziarebs `lelo – saqarTvelosTvis~ lideri mamuka xazaraZe.
– pirvel rigSi, rogor SeafasebT amJamindel politikur viTarebas saqarTveloSi? `marSalis gegmam~, romelic saarCevnod sazogadoebas warudgineT, yuradReba miipyro. . .
– qveyanaSi da politikur cxovrebaSi sxvadasxva aspeqtSi mniSvnelovani cvlilebebi moxda, ramac yvela Zalian sapasuxismgeblo etapamde mogviyvana. pirveli, es aris Sarl miSelis SeTanxmeba, sadac opozicias gvaqvs konkretuli mizani – am dokumentis punqtebi Sesruldes. masSi aris gawerili saarCevno kanonmdebloba, marTlmsajulebis kanonmdebloba da rigi cvlilebebi, aseve opoziciis xelSi gadadis saparlamento berketebi. yvelaze mniSvnelovania Semodgomaze 43%-iani barieris arseboba, romelsac SeuZlia Secvalos Cveni qveynis momavali, politikuri cxovreba da dainiSnos srulad proporciuli arCevnebi, rac aris SesaZlebloba, istorias CavabaroT e.w. maxinji sistema, maJoritarebis instituts rom gulisxmobs. amJamindeli viTareba `lelos~ gadasaxedidan aris aseTi: SevqmeniT fraqcia, inicirebuli gvaqvs da registrirebulia ramdenime kanoni, davaregistrireT antikorufciuli saagentos kanonmdebloba, romelic SevimuSaveT samoqalaqo seqtorTan da ucxoel partniorebTan erTad, aseve davaregistrireT antikorufciuli elituri sagamoZiebo komisia, romelsac mxari 48 deputatma unda dauWiros. Cven davuZaxebT monawileebs da aqtorebs, raTa am sagamoZiebo komisiis farglebSi gamovavlinoT korufciis sistemuri danaSauli, is adamianebi da kompaniebi, romlebic Cvens biujets wlebis ganmavlobaSi Wamen da mere am fuls mmarTvel partias uziareben. uaxloes xanSi marTlmsajulebis Sesaxeb Cvens xedvas gavacnobT sazogadoebas. biznesombudsmenis arCeviTobis institucias SemovitanT parlamentSi, rom biznesombudsmeni ki ar iniSnebodes mTavrobis da premieris mier, aramed airCion biznesasociaciebma da iyos angariSvaldebuli parlamentis winaSe. rac yvelaze mniSvnelovania, `marSalis gegmidan~ gamomdinare, vakeTebT kanonproeqts, romelic iTvaliswinebs kapitalis bazris Camoyalibebas saqarTveloSi, rac aris aucilebeli piroba imisaTvis, rom ekonomikas seriozuli biZgi mieces da amuSavdes.
– parlamenti ukve mravalpartiuli gaxda. ra dadebiTi Sedegebi moitana am garemoebam da ras moitans momavalSi demokratiis ganviTarebisTvis?
– sargebeli is aris, rom Sarl miSelis konkretuli dokumenti gvaqvs. rom ara es dokumenti, parlamenti iqneboda parlamentisTvis anu erTpartiuli. Cven kargad vxedavT, Tu ra Sedegia 9 wlis ganmavlobaSi, radgan Semdgar saxelmwifos `Sarl miSeli~’ ar unda sWirdebodes normaluri saarCevno sistemis misaRebad, dokumenti ar unda sWirdebodes imisTvis, rom sasamarTlo gvqondes. gadawyvetileba, rom iusticiis sabWom 9 mosamarTle waradgina uvado mosamarTled, aris pirdapiri darRveva Sarl miSelis SeTanxmebis, aris katastrofa da is, Tu rogor ar unda iqceodnen pasuxismgebliani partia da politikosebi. es niSnavs ugulebelyofas yvela arsebuli winapirobis da imas, rom zurgs aqceven evropas, rasac Cven SevewinaaRmdegebiT, iqneba seriozuli protesti da amas naxavs sazogadoeba.
– zogierTi politikosi, magaliTad, naTelaSvili, uaryofiTad afasebs opoziciis parlamentSi Sesvlas. . .
– Sarl miSelis SeTanxmeba aris gardamavali da saetapo dokumenti imisa, rom erTi mdgomareobidan meoreSi gadaviyvanoT Cveni cxovrebis umniSvnelovanesi mimarTulebebi, rac aris saarCevno sistema, marTlmsajuleba da is Camketi meqanizmi, romelic aris 43%. Tu gvinda cvlileba, adgilobriv arCevnebSi xma mivceT marTla im partias, romelic Cvens interesebs gamoxatavs, xma mivceT opozicias imitom, rom damTavrdes 30-wliani erTpartiuli mmarTveloba am qveyanaSi. saWiroa gavuCinoT qveyanas Sansi imisa, rom man miiRos mravalpartiuli, srulad proporciuli arCevnebi. swored es iqneba garRveva da axali etapi Cveni cxovrebis.
– ucxoeli e.w. fasilitatorebis CarTuloba Cvens politikur cxovrebaSi aumjobesebs realobas? saerTod, ras fiqrobT amaze?
– rac ufro axlos viqnebiT evropasTan da met gamocdilebas gaviziarebT demokratiuli instituciebis mSeneblobis TvalsazrisiT, ra Tqma unda, miT ukeTesi iqneba. am krizisma dagvanaxa, rom qarTul politikas, samwuxarod, ar eyo simwife saimisod, rom Tavad moegvarebina es sakiTxi. `qarTul ocnebas~ aqvs Tavisi merkantiluri konkretuli interesebi, marTos es qveyana erTpirovnulad, es aris misi amocana da, Sesabamisad, amitom arRveven kanons, rom moirgon Tavis politikur interesebze. evropelebis CarTuloba, Cemi azriT, aris mniSvnelovani. imedia, roca koalicia Seiqmneba am qveyanaSi, viswavliT koaliciurad qveynis marTvas, erTmaneTis azris mosmenas da gaTvaliswinebas, alternatiul da kritikul azrovnebas. sabolood, unda gaxsovdes, Tu ratom xar arCeuli – adamians unda emsaxuro, axalgazrda, moxuci, SSm piri, sazogadoeba unda gedges Tvalwin, unda gaxsovdes, rom Seni gadawyvetileba adamianebze yoveldRiurad moqmedebs.
– pandemiis daZleva – es mizanicaa da gamowvevac. ra aris is TqvenTvis? pandemiisSemdgom saqarTvelos rogor xedavT?
– pandemia aris krizisi ara marto samedicino, aramed ekonomikuri TvalsazrisiTac. visac gauvlia krizisi da hqonia Sexeba did biznesTan, did finansebTan, man yvelaze kargad icis, rom krizisis dros yvelaze kargi aris didi saqmeebis dawyeba. dRes msoflioSi uamravi qveyana pandemiur Wrilobebs iSuSebs, Zlierma saxelmwifom es periodi unda gamoiyenos imisaTvis, rom moedani moamzados Zlieri da masStaburi sainvesticio kapitalis investiciisTvis, miT ufro, roca gaqvs SeTavazeba msoflios wamyvani kompaniebisa. swored am moments uSvebs xelidan Cveni xelisufleba, radgan mas, ubralod, xedva da gamocdileba ar aqvs, SeiZleba iTqvas, rom kapitali msoflioSi arsad wasula, is isev iq aris, fuli ar gamqrala, ubralod, es kapitali elodeba dapatiJebas, Tu romel qveyanaSi wavides. geopolitikuri TvalsazrisiT, Cven xelSi gvaqvs Zalian bevri resursi, rasac SevTavazebT, magram, samwuxarod, ideac ki ar aris mTavrobisgan, Tu sad unda wavides es yvelaferi, Tu vis unda elaparako, romeli qveynis investicias, ra aris prioriteti, sad unda Caadebino fuli – infrastruqturaSi, soflis meurneobaSi, portSi Tu aeroportSi. am yvelafers sWirdeba gegma, romelic, samwuxarod, ar aqvs Cvens qveyanas. Cven bolo 9 wlis ganmavlobaSi vismenT, rom iqneba 100 sawarmo, magram ar aris… vismenT aseve, rom raRac gaumjobesdeba, magram rodesac finansTa ministrs vkiTxe, Tu ra gegma aqvT, pasuxi iyo is, rom 5% iqneba Cveni zrda. saqmec isaa, rom es 5% zrda ar migviyvans arsad da davrCebiT uRaribesi qveyana.
– Tqven TqviT, rom arCevnebSi zepartiuli lideris gamarjvebaa sasurveli. aseTi kandidatura gegulebaT saqarTveloSi? ra azris arian sxva partiebis warmomadgenlebi amaze?
– ra Tqma unda, Cven gverdiT aris es xalxi. mgonia, rom politikosebma da sazogadoebam erTad unda ipovon aseTi adamianebi. Aai, magaliTad, baTums ramdeni problema aqvs! davijero, baTumSi adamiani araa, visac wesieri cxovrebiT aqvs nacxovrebi? visac uzarmazari profesiuli gamocdileba aqvs? es SeiZleba iyos kargi iuristi, advokati, yofili mosamarTle, kargi msaxiobi, romelsac aqvs marTvis unari. mTavaria, ra ideas daisaxav. magaliTad, baTumis merma rom daisaxos ori an sami idea bulvaris gadasarCenad da amas daudges gverdiT yvela opoziciuri partia, Sedegic dadgeba. me ar mjera, rom viRac universaluri adamiani arsebobs, erTi, romelic yvela problemas gadaWris, magram Tu davinaxav, rom aris aseTi adamiani, romelsac sami konkretuli Temis gadawyveta SeuZlia, aucileblad davudgebiT gverdiT, swored aseTi adamianebis Semokrebaa aucilebeli.
– saqarTvelo, miuxedavad imisa, rom resursebiT mdidaria, axla Raribi qveynebis rigSia. . . anakliis proeqtis ugulebelyofam bevri kiTxva warmoSva, mas SeiZleboda, gaeumjobesebina socialuri foni, magram ver Tu ar ganxorcielda. . .
– anakliis proeqti `qarTuli ocnebis~ pirobebSi ar ganxorcieldeba imitom, rom ruseTis davaleba iyo, ar ganxorcielebuliyo da amas vambob mTeli pasuxismgeblobiT, radgan ori welia proeqti gaCerebulia da saxelmwifos mxridan praqtikuli nabijebis aranairi mcdeloba ar yofila. anakliis proeqti da qalaqi anaklia CvenTvis iqneba Semomatrialebeli saukunis proeqti, romelic axal realobas Seqmnis qveyanaSi ekonomikuri da usafrTxoebis TvalsazrisiT da axali realuri dialogis saSualebas mogvcems afxazeTTan. swored aseT mniSvnelovan proeqts aCereben ukve ramdenime welia. aq arafer SuaSia mamuka xazaraZe imitom, rom mamuka xazaraZe ukve ori welia am proeqtSi ar aris, maT waarTves mamuka xazaraZes da mis partniorebs imis ufleba, rom proeqti bolomde mieyvanaT, magram TviTon sad arian da ras akeTeben? sityvebi, rom anaklia aSendeba, iseve, rogorc gareji saqarTveloa, arafris mTqmelia. mTavaria, yvelaferi praqtikulad ganxorcieldes. es aris CemTvis mTavari kiTxva da ara mxolod sityvebi. kidev erTxel gavimeoreb, rom samwuxaro realobis winaSe varT da es realoba ar Seicvleba, sanam `qarTuli ocneba~ iqneba xelisuflebaSi.
– warsulSi kulturis sferos qomagobdiT, axla, rogorc kanonmdebeli, xom ar miiCnevT saWirod, rom am sferos meti yuradReba sWirdeba?
– CemTvis umZimesia gelaTis sakiTxis mosmena. qveyanas rom ar SeuZlia gelaTis gadaxurva ise, rom wyali ar Cavides, es aris naTeli magaliTi imisa, Tu rogor aris CamoSlili sistema, Tu rogor zedapirulad, kabinetebidan uyureben amas da rogor ar cdiloben problemis simwvaveSi garkvevas. sircxvilia, rom wlebis ganmavlobaSi ver gadaxure Seni xuroTmoZRvrebis erT-erTi Sedevri, Seufasebeli kulturuli Zegli. es aris danaSauli da ara – arakompetenturoba. es aris is saxe, rac `qarTulma ocnebam~ Camoayaliba bolo cxra wlis ganmavlobaSi. Ddroa, SevcvaloT es midgoma, globalurad unda SevcvaloT da TiToeuli Cvengani unda gavxdeT elCi da gulSematkivari Cveni qalaqebis. Aaucilebelia, viyoT principulebi. rogorc ki naTesaoba Semodis aseT ambavSi, Cveni mentalobaa aseTi, rom eridebi an gaurbixar Temas da es Tavis arideba dagvRupavs. ar unda gadavuxvioT principebs, Tu gvinda, rom mizans mivaRwioT.
– rogor afasebT `lelos~ aWaris organizaciis muSaobas da ras urCevdiT mis Tavkacebs?
– realurad, Cven axla daviwyeT partiis mSenebloba qvemodan zemoT. TbilisSi CavatareT 10 konferencia, sadac Zalian konkurentul da gamWvirvale, demokratiul garemoSi avirCieT 10 raionis sabWoebi, analogiurs viwyebT uaxloes dReebSi aWaraSi. mqonda partiis wevrebTan Sexvedra da maxarebs is faqti, rom 250 axali wevri Segvemata, TbilisSi – daaxloebiT 500-mde. es aris CvenTvis sasixarulo, radgan erTaderTi partia varT, romelic arCevnebis Semdeg araTu daiSala an viRac mogvaklda, piriqiT – gaizarda. Tu gadaavlebT sias Tvals – ramdeni partia daiSala, mixvdebiT, rom Cven raRacas sworad vakeTebdiT da sworad vakeTebT imitom, rom CvenTvis mTavaria adamiani da misi xma. rogor SeiZleba xelisuflebis marTvaze gqondes pretenzia, roca Sen qvemodan zemoT, arCeviTobis principiT ar gamoavlen im liderebs, romlebsac ZaluZT TavianT raionSi, TavianT quCaze Tu ubanSi raRac Secvalon ukeTesobisken. aq aravis aravin daniSnavs, es iqneba namdvili demokratiuli procesi – pirvelad qarTul politikur sinamdvileSi, iseve rogorc pirvelad davwereT namdvilad realuri `marSalis gegma~, romelic qveynis antikrizisuli gegmaa. samwuxarod, pandemiis gamo, pirdapir, saarCevno situaciaSi aRmovCndiT, magram uaxloes or TveSi mTeli saqarTvelos masStabiT am process davasrulebT da es iqneba qvemodan zemoT principiT, demokratiulad arCeuli partia, sakmaod Zlieri da mere ukve partia gadawyvets gegmis damtkicebas, strategias. partiis raionuli organizaciebi, TviTon es adamianebi miiReben gadawyvetilebas, rogori sia Sedges, vin iyos maTi saxe sakrebuloSi, maTi maJoritari da swored es iqneba saintereso procesi.
– baTums gadaxedeT, gaiareT mis quCebSi. . . ras etyviT qalaqis mersa da baTumelebs?
– gaaCereT! gaaCereT! gaaCereT! imitom, rom es mSenebloba ramdenime weliwadSi ufro cudad moutrialdeba baTums. Tu aSeneb, unda aaSeno evropuli standartiT, im gamocdilebiT, romelic aqvs nicas, kans da, zogadad, zRvispira qalaqebs. Tu aSeneb, ise unda aaSeno, rom ar daugdo uZravi qonebis fasi baTumels. Tu mas win kedels auSeneb, is veRarc mzes dainaxavs, veRarc zRvas da haeric ki ar Seuva binaSi. me biznesis seqtoridan movdivar da iciT, rom Seneba aris erT-erTi, rac miyvars, magram cudad Senebas jobia, saerTod ar aaSeno, gaCerde, amoisunTqo da Soridan Sexedo, ras vakeTebT. amden uZrav qonebas rom vqmniT, fass vzrdiT amiT Tu piriqiT – vagdebT? ai, me, piradad, Tu mkiTxavT amas, gipasuxebT, rom qalaqis fass vagdebT, dRevandeli gadmosaxedidan Tu SevafasebT, radgan Tu kedeli CamovafareT zRvas, maSin damTavrdeba kurortis da biznesqalaqis statusi. Tavi baTumelad mimaCnia – Cemi winaprebi aqedan arian da bavSvoba aq maqvs gatarebuli. amitom yvelam, visac baTumi gviyvars da guli Segvtkiva, unda gaviazroT is, Tu rogor qalaqs vaSenebT, ekologiurad sufTas, biznesqalaqs, kazinoebis qalaqs, bevri sacxovrebeli farTi rom iyos da mere yvela fanjaraze eweros iyideba, Tu?. . Tqven ggoniaT, marto pandemiis gamo iyideba? ara, vinc iyida Tavis droze, rusma, azerbaijanelma, ukrainelma da mere roca Camovida, manqana ver gaaCera, parkis adgilas korpusi daxvda. rac yvelaze mTavaria, xedi, risTvisac esa Tu is adgili aarCia, aRar daxvda. biznesSi da turizmSi mTavaria, ganmeorebadi turisti ramdeni gyavs, es aris mniSvnelovani da ara is, vinc pirvelad moxible aWaruli xaWapuriT. mTavaria, meorejer Tu Cadebs erTxel Camosuli adamiani fuls. Tu ar gvinda, rom miviRoT Sedegad Camqrali Suqi fanjrebSi, dangreuli uZravi qoneba, zRvaze Camofarebuli betonis kedeli, gamofxizlebaa saWiro.
– dabolos. . .
– madloba – aWaras da madloba – Tqvens gazeTs, rom maZlevT saSualebas, Tqvens mkiTxvelamde mivitano Cemi saTqmeli. yvelas movuwodeb, iaqtiuron ara romelime konkretuli partiis mxardasaWerad, aramed imitom, rom Zalaufleba ekuTvnis xalxs, TiToul Tqvens mkiTxvels. sazogadoeba unda mixvdes, rom mis xelSia uzarmazari Zalaufleba da am Zalauflebas unda Sekreba, miznis dasaxva, problemis identifikacia da mere erTiani ZalebiT brZola, radgan istoria gvaCvenebs, rom ubrZolvelad aravin arafers ar mogvcems, ar gagvikeTebs. yvelaferi unda movipovoT. Tu Cven dagviWeren mxars, yvelafers gavakeTebT, rom gavamarTloT ndoba. aucileblad iyaviT kritikulad ganwyobilebi imitom, rom es xelisufleba ar aris SesabamisobaSi imasTan, rasac TiTouli Cveni moqalaqe imsaxurebs, amitom unda gavuSvaT `qarTuli ocneba~, rom iocnebon calke, TavisTvis.