მედლის მეორე მხარე ანუ ირაკლი შავაძის არგუმენტები გახმაურებულ სკანდალთან დაკავშირებით

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keTilsindisieri, patiosani, profesionali da marTali kaci – ase axasiaTeben baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTlos mosamarTles irakli SavaZes advokatebi (da ara mxolod). mis keTilsindisierebasa da kvalificiurobaSi eWvi arc iusticiis umaRles sabWos Seutania, Tumca, batoni irakli uvado mosamarTled mainc ar gaamweses. igi mizezad baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTlos TavmjdomaresTan dapirispirebasa da mis gavlenebs asaxelebs. SavaZe – mamiseiSvilis irgvliv atexili skandali sazogadoebaSi did interess iwvevs. `medals ori mxare aqvs~, Tumca simarTle erTia, romlis damtkicebas orive mxare cdilobs.
Cven mkiTxvels ukve SevTavazeT baton daviT mamiseiSvilTan vrceli interviu, dRes ki irakli SavaZes vuTmobT asparezs, mosamarTles, romelic simarTlis garkvevas sasamarTlos miRma cdilobs. sazogadoeba ki fiqrobs, rom qveyanas, sadac mosamarTle daxmarebisTvis ara sasamarTlos, aramed mesame seqtors mimarTavs, demokratiulobaze pretenzia ver eqneba.
– batono irakli, ambobT, rom ori wlis ganmavlobaSi `jojoxeTi gamoiareT~. ras gulisxmobT, iqneb dagvikonkretoT?
– batonma daviT mamiseiSvilma Cemi marto datovebis procesi daiwyo 2016 wlis aprilidan, mas Semdeg, rac aRkveTis RonisZieba Sevucvale aw gardacvlil zaza arTmelaZes. arada, roca es saqme damawera, batonma mamiseiSvilma direqtiva moayola da miTxra, rom gabrazebuli iyo arTmelaZis advokatsa da daze. misive ganmartebiT, wyena daiwyo mosamarTleTa konferenciidan, romlis msvlelobisas braldebulis dam da advokatma plakatebi gamofines. batonma daviTma isic miTxra, rom Tavadac apirebda arTmelaZisaTvis aRkveTis RonisZiebis Secvlas, magram xsenebuli faqtis gamo gadaifiqra da meubneboda, patimrobaSi dametovebina igi. arTmelaZes 21 aprils Sevucvale aRkveTis RonisZieba. 22 aprils sasamarTlos Tavmjdomarem mkiTxa aseTi gadawyvetilebis mizezi, 23 aprils aRar momesalma da 24 aprils miTxra, rom davrCebodi marto. manamdec hqonda naTqvami, Tu mas davupirispirdebodi da ar viqnebodi maTi gundis wevri, koleqtivisgan gaviriyebodi. zaza arTmelaZem rogor daasrula sicocxle, yvelam viciT. adamianma TviTmkvlelobis gadawyvetileba ojaxis wevrebis garemocvaSi miiRo da es rom sasjelaRsrulebis dawesebulebaSi gaekeTebina, warmoidgineT, rogor imoqmedebda Cemze, rogorc mosamarTlesa da adamianze.
– anu daviT mamiseiSvilma `danapirebi~ Seasrula?
– diax, Seasrula. TanamSromlebi gaurbodnen CemTan urTierTobas. Tu 2016 wlis aprilamde Cems samuSao oTaxSi mosamarTleebi Cveulebrivad Semodiodnen, aprilis Semdeg Tveebi ise gadioda, arc erTi kolega Cems kabinetSi ar Semodioda. konferenciebzec rom mivdiodiT TbilisSi, daviT mamiseiSvili Tavad wyvetda, sasamarTlos manqanebSi vin sad dajdeboda, me ki samarSruto taqsiT miwevda mimosvla. problemebs miqmnida sasamarTlos sxdomis darbazis gamoyenebaSic.
– batonma daviT mamiseiSvilma CvenTan interviuSi ganacxada, rom komfortuli samuSao garemo gqondaT sasamarTloSi samuSao oTaxis TvalsazrisiT, arc sasamarTlos darbazis problema geqmnebodaT.
– mandaturebma da TanamSromlebmac ician, rom ar vityuebi. samsaxurebrivi uflebamosilebis gadametebis da borotad gamoyenebis niSnebze vsaubrob. amis erT-erTi naTeli dadastureba baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTlos saitze atvirTuli mosamarTleTa gancxadebacaa, sadac weria, rom isini mravali welia icnoben daviT mamiseiSvils, romelic aris keTilsindisieri xelmZRvaneli, megobari da im faqtebs, rasac me vaJRereb, Turme adgili ar hqonia. xelismomwerTa Soris arian qalbatoni irma togoniZe da batoni levan gelovani. togoniZe ramdenime dRis daniSnulia baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTloSi mosamarTled, gelovani ki ramdenime Tvis da axla amixsnan, rogor icnoben isini ramdenime welia saqalaqo sasamarTlos Tavmjdomares? an saidan ician, ra moxda 2016 wels Cemsa da baton mamiseiSvils Soris?
– sasamarTlos Tavmjdomarem kolegebis gancxadeba axsna da Tqva, rom mosamarTleebis ganawyeneba Tqvenma sityvebma `koleqtiuri murusiZeebi~ gamoiwvia…
– `koleqtiuri murusiZeebi~ Cemi kolegebis misamarTiT ar gamomiyenebia. amaSi vgulisxmobdi iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos wevrebs. ratom moiazres sakuTari Tavi `koleqtiur murusiZeebSi~ baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTlos mosamarTleebma? meoresac getyviT, ukve xsenebuli ori mosamarTlis garda, sxva mosamarTleebi rom aweren xels gancxadebas, maTze zewola da sasamarTlos Tavmjdomaris uflebamosilebis borotad gamoyeneba Tavad batoni mamiseiSvilis gancxadebebma daadastura radioeTerSi. man Tqva, rom ori wlis win Sewyvita CemTan komunikacia, mizezad ki daasaxela is, rom TiTqos sasamarTlo praqtikis gaziareba ar msurda, rac sicruea da sicruea isic, TiTqos amis gamo gamibrazda. Cemi saqmianoba Semowmebulia da 95.4 procenti Cem mier gamotanili ganaCenebis, gasaCivrebis Semdeg, ZalaSi datoves zemdgomi instanciis sasamarTloebma. amasTan, man isic Tqva, rom ori wlis win icoda, problemas Sevuqmnidi, anu iwinaswarmetyvela da amitom ar melaparakeboda. mis logikas rom gavyveT, es imas niSnavs, rom adamiani arafris gamo ar melaparakeboda. danarCeni 10 mosamarTle fiqrobs, rom es yvelaferi jansaRi procesia. etyoba, batonma mamiseiSvilma ori wlis win isic icoda, rom iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos wevrebi mxars ar damiWerdnen. Cven Soris uTanxmoebis mizezi ar Semicvlia da erTsa da imaves vambob yvelgan. ramdenad damajerebelia batoni mamiseiSvilis versia xilvebis Taobaze, es ukve sazogadoebam gansajos. igi cdilobs, mosamarTleebis kalTas amoefaros. isic araerTxel vTqvi – ar msurda am yvelafris saaSkaraoze gamotana, Tumca vicodi, rom mamiseiSvilis faqtoriT ar damniSnavdnen uvadod. amitom Sevxvdi saqarTvelos uzenaesi sasamarTlos Tavmjdomares qalbaton nino gvenetaZes da detalurad movuyevi, ratom damipirispirda sasamarTlos Tavmjdomare.
– ra pasuxi miiReT qalbatoni gvenetaZisgan?
– meti detalebis gasajaroebas saWirod ar vTvli, qalbatoni nino ki daadasturebs, rom vesaubre. garda qalbatoni gvenetaZisa, aseve Sevxvdi iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos erT mosamarTle wevrs, e.w. meore gundidan. masac detalurad movuyevi, ra xdeboda Cemsa da Tavmjdomares Soris, vuTxari isic, Tu ratom vfiqrobdi, rom ver miviRebdi iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos wevrTa xmebs. vesaubre zaza arTmelaZis saqmeSi mis pirad interesze, ra mTxova batonma mamiseiSvilma da ratom gamibrazda. iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos mosamarTle wevrs vTxove sabWos sxva mosamarTle wevrebamde am informaciis mitana. ar mindoda vinmesTan dapirispirebuli vyofiliyavi. daviT mamiseiSvils uvadod rom niSnavdnen, xma ar amomiRia, arc maSin, roca baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTlos Tavmjdomared gaamweses, ar viTxovdi, saqme gaerCiaT da eTqvaT, rom marTali viyavi, magram vicodi, Tu uvadod ar damniSnavdnen, es iqneboda mamiseiSvilTan Cemi urTierTobis gamo. iusticiis sabWos wevri dampirda, rom informacias sxva wevrebs miawvdida. amis Semdeg meored Sevxvdi qalbaton nino gvenetaZes, vuTxari, rom vesaubre iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos mosamarTle wevrs da arc misi vinaoba damimalavs.
– rogor fiqrobT, sabWos mosamarTle wevrma adresatamde ar miitana Tqveni gzavnili?
– piriqiT, darwmunebuli var, yvela saqmis kursSi Caayena, magram Zalaufleba ise aqvT TavSi asuli, ifiqres, gavCumdebodi da arafers vityodi. ufro metic – jer kidev 2017 wels erT Zalian mniSvnelovan adamianTan visaubre am sakiTxze. dRes ki amboben, ratom ar gavakeTe uvado daniSvnamde xmamaRali gancxadebebi.
– bunebrivia da logikuric kiTxva – ratom dumdiT?
– erTi is, rom vufrTxildebodi sasamarTlos reputacias, meorec, me brZoliT movipove damoukidebloba. ar miveci sasamarTlos Tavmjdomares SesaZlebloba, xelebi efaTurebina Cems saqmeebSi da misi karnaxiT mimeRo gadawyvetilebebi. am kuTxiT problema aRar mqonda. rac Seexeba mosamarTleebTan komunikacias, esec met-naklebad dalagebuli iyo. amitom, Tu moxdeboda Cemi uvadod gamweseba, isev damoukidebel mosamarTled davrCebodi da gavagrZelebdi saqmianobas.
– sasamarTlos Tavmjdomare ambobs, rom Tqven SegiTanxmaT da ise dagakisraT sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSi muSaoba.
– esec sicruea da getyviT – ratom. mosamarTlis konkursSi roca vmonawileobdi, ar momiTxovia sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSi muSaoba. apelirebs, TiTqos problema iyo am kolegiaSi da imitom damavala saqmeebis ganxilva. esec sicruea.
– daviT mamiseiSvilis gancxadebiT, ara mxolod saqmeTa simravle, aramed Tqveni gamocdilebac aZlevda saSualebas, sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSic gemuSavaT…
– sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSi, vidre me damevaleboda saqmeebis ganxilva, 4 mosamarTle iyo da saqmeebic Tanabrad hqondaT gadanawilebuli. batoni xviCa WiWilaSvili xelvaCauris raionul sasmarTloSi rom gadavida, baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTloSi, sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSi dainiSna giorgi gratiaSvili. mamiseiSvili 140 saqmeze saubrobs, aqedan sapatimro maqsimum 30 iqneboda, danarCeni ki 10 wlis winandelia da dRemde araa ganxiluli. roca brZaneba dawera Cemi sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSi gamwesebaze, imTaviTve vuTxari, rom ukanono gadawyvetileba iyo, magram igi yovelTvis xazs usvamda, rom batonebi levan murusiZe, levan TevzaZe iyvnen misi Svilis naTliebi, iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos mosamarTle wevrebi ki misi megobrebi, amdenad, aranairi problema ar meqneboda uvado gamwesebaze da verc prokuraturidan gabedavda vinme Civils, Tu me morCili mosamarTle viqnebodi. Tumca, raki masTan dapirispirebas ver avcdebodi, SevTavaze, saqmeebze, romlebsac me mawerda, oficialurad moemarTa, daewera brZaneba da mieTiTebina saqmeTa CamonaTvali. axali saqmec axali brZanebiT daeweraT Cemze. samarTlebrivad esec ar iqneboda marTebuli, magram raRac axsna eqneboda. marTali rom var, es imiTac dasturdeba, rom 2016 wlis 4 ianvars mivedi samsaxurSi da 2016 wlis TebervalSi 2 mosamarTle dainiSna sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSi – batoni salix SainiZe da qalbatoni indira baSaleiSvili. batoni salixi wlebis ganmavlobaSi mosamarTled muSaobs da ixilavda sisxlis samarTlis saqmeebs. Tavmjdomarem gadaameta uflebamosilebas, salixi gadaiyvana da daniSna samoqalaqo saqmeTa kolegiaSi, me damtova sisxlis samarTlis saqmeTa kolegiaSi. weliwadi da 6 Tve vmuSaobdi sisxlis samarTlis saqmeebze. isic sicruea, TiTqos me vambob, rom daviT mamiseiSvili marTavs saqarTvelos prokuraturas da sasjelaRsrulebis dawesebulebas. arasodes gamikeTebia msgavsi gancxadeba, vTqvi da dResac vadastureb, rom mas kavSirebi hqonda da aqvs aWaris prokuraturaSi garkveul prokurorebTan, Cem mimarT saCivrebi am kavSirebidan modis. me-3 penitenciuri dawesebulebis xelmZRvanelis saCivarSic vxedav mis did mecadineobas.
– isic iTqva, rom Tqvensa da daviT mamiseiSvils Soris dapirispireba ufro adre – Tqveni advokatobis periodSi daiwyo.
– iyo aseTi SemTxveva, rom mowmes mivmarTe – `Sen~, risTvisac batonma mamiseiSvilma damajarima, Tumca gavasaCivre da apelaciam saxdeli gaauqma. am sakiTxs namdvilad ar vukavSireb Cven Soris urTierTobis daZabvas, Tumca, sazogadoebas axsovs, roca sasamarTlodan wamovedi, 2009 wlidan 2012 wlamde sasamarTlos da prokuraturis winaRmdeg gancxadebebs vakeTebdi. es dadasturebuli faqtia da Cemi gamoxatvis Tavisufleba. bunebrivia, esec raRac doziT aisaxa Cvens urTierTobaze, magram batoni mamiseiSvilis gabrazeba, calsaxad vambob, ukavSirdeba zaza arTmelaZis saqmes.
– levan murusiZes ukvirs Tqveni gamonaTqvami `koleqtiur murusiZeebze~, rogorc Tavad acxadebs, Tqven sasamarTlo sistemaSi swored maSin dainiSneT, roca igi iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos mdivani iyo.
– rogor damniSna murusiZem, amasac getyviT. xelisufleba rom Seicvala, Sevitane gancxadeba da konkursSi monawileoba miviRe, magram pirvel jerze ar damniSnes, vinaidan iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos mosamarTle wevrebma mxari ar damiWires. arc meore jerze, radgan, rogorc ukve giTxariT, Tavis droze gancxadebebs vakeTebdi sasamarTlo sistemaSi arsebul mdgomareobaze. mesame mcdelobaze daviniSne. aqve getyviT, rom meore jerze sabWoSi ver SeTanxmdnen mosamarTle da aramosamarTle wevrebi da bevri mosamarTle ver dainiSna, ramac garkveulwilad krizisi Seqmna. Tavad daviT mamiseiSvils aqvs naTqvami, rom mosamarTled ar niSnavdnen baton giorgi gratiaSvils Dda, rogorc amixsna, moxda SeTanxmeba aramosamarTle da mosamarTle wevrebs Soris – daviniSne mec da Semdeg dainiSna gratiaSvilic.

– Tu gaqvT molodini, rom simarTles daamtkicebT?
– marTali rom var, nawilobriv aRiara kidec mamiseiSvilma. Tavad Sewyvita CemTan komunikacia da ar melaparakeboda, mizezad, rogorc ukve vTqvi, Tavisive winaswarmetyveleba daasaxela.
– ratom ar moxvdiT gasuli wlis bolos gavrcelebul klipSi?
– rac Seexeba klips, tyuils ver vityvi, mec SemomTavazes monawileoba, magram scenari rom vnaxe, CemTvis miuRebeli aRmoCnda da uari ganvacxade. amasTan, aqve getyviT, mzad var ara CarTvebiT, aramed pirdapir eTerSi davjde debatebSi baton mamiseiSvilTan, sadac kiTxvebs Cven davusvamT erTmaneTs da iqve gamoCndeba, vin ityueba. aseve, imave sivrceSi dasxdnen fsiqologebi, romlebic daadgenen, vin ityueba, anda, sicruis deteqtorTan davsxdeT. saintereso kia, ratom ar aqvs amis survili baton daviTs – deteqtoris eSinia Tu sakuTari Tavis?
– batono irakli, iusticiis umaRlesi sabWo mzadaa, orives mogisminoT. mzad xarT SexvedrisTvis?
– vinaidan iusticiis sabWos aramosamarTle wevrebs araerTxel uTqvamT, rom sxdomebze ZvelbiWuri garCevebi xdeba, moviTxov, gasaubrebaze erTad davsxdeT me da batoni daviTi da Sexvedrac sajaro iyos. saxalxo damcvelsac vTxov, gamonaxos dro da daeswros Sexvedras. Tu iusticiis sabWoze CemTan erTad ar iqneba daviT mamiseiSvili, viTxov, gasaubreba iyos sajaro da Sexvedraze dauSvan mediis warmomadgenlebi. mamiseiSvilma Tavis droze miTxra, Tumca am dReebSi uaryo, rom levan murusiZe misi Svilis naTliaa, rac murusiZemac nawilobriv uaryo, magram Tavmjdomares ar uaruyvia levan TevzaZesTan naTel-mironoba.
– es is levan TevzaZea, romlis axlo naTesavic iusticiis umaRlesi sabWos wevria?
– diax, amasTan, sabWos wevria irakli bondarenko, romelTanac xelvaCauris sasamarTloSi wlebis ganmavlobaSi muSaobda batoni mamiseiSvili. marTali rom var rogorc mamiseiSvilTan, ise iusticiis umaRles sabWosTan, dgindeba imiTac, rom mosamarTled 3-wliani gamosacdeli vadiT Cemi daniSvnisas iusticiis umaResma sabWom CaTvala – vakmayofilebdi keTilsindisierebis da kvalificiurobis kriteriumebs. axlac, roca Cemi uvadod gamweseba igegmeboda, sabWom Tqva, var keTilsindisieri da kvalificiuri, mesame kriteriumi ki ar arsebobs, magram mainc ar damiWires mxari. sazogadoebisTvis mimindvia gansja. Tu keTilsindisieri da kvalificiuri var da Sefasebis sxva kriteriumi ar arsebobs, amavdroulad baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTlos Tavmjdomare adasturebs, rom Cemze gabrazebulia, hyavs samegobro sabWoSi, bunebrivia, vukavSireb mas Cems ardaniSvnas.
– Tqveni saubridan gamodis, rom sanam daviT mamiseiSvilis megobrebi iqnebian sabWoSi, batoni daviTis neba-survili iqneba gaTvaliswinebuli?
– diax da mec mis ambiciebs Sevewire. sanam CemTan komunikacia hqonda, meubneboda kidec, vis sad daniSnavdnen. maSin ar fiqrobda, rom Cven Soris situacia daiZabeboda. kidev bevri niuansis miTiTeba SemiZlia.
– batono irakli, samwliani vadis gasvlis Semdeg isev cdiT beds mosamarTleobaze?
– ra gadawyvetilebas miviReb, winaswar prognozireba ar SemiZlia. sakiTxebi, razec vsaubrob, CemTvis adamianurad rTulia, magram sxva gamosavali ar damitoves. Tu maT davupirispirdebodi, codva davrCebodi – momereodnen. simarTles, marTlac Znelia, moerio, Tumca swored maTi Sromisa da Rvawlis Sedegia is gancxadeba, rac baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTlos saitze atvirTes. hkiTxeT mosamarTleebs, aris Tu ara maTze zewola, romelime maTgans normalurad miaCnia, Tavmjdomare wlebis ganmavlobaSi mosamarTles rom ar elaparakeba Tavisi winaswarmetyvelebis gamo? Seesabameba es yvelaferi mosamarTlis qcevis wess?