„საქართველოს საკითხი ძალიან ღირებული და მნიშვნელოვანია ამერიკისთვის“
laSa xomeriki 593 50 82 69 –
msoflio politikaSi kvlav mniSvnelovan movlenad rCeba axlaxan Catarebuli aSS-is saprezidento arCevnebi. donald trampis damajerebelma gamarjvebam zogierTi dasavluri qveynis SeSfoTeba gamoiwvia. . . rogorc cnobilia, trampi acxadebda, rom ruseT-ukrainis oms 24 saaTSi daasrulebda da msoflios nebismier regionSi amerikis interesebs yovelmxriv daicavda. udavoa, rom amerikis SeerTebuli Statebi, rogorc zesaxelmwifo, did gavlenas axdens saerTaSoriso politikur procesebze, Sesabamisad, am qveyanaSi mimdinare arCevnebi danarCeni msoflios yuradRebis centrSia. gaCnda araerTi kiTxva: rogoria amerikis arCevnebis efeqti? rogor apirebs trampi ruseT-ukrainis omis dasrulebas? rogor warimarTeba saqarTvelo-amerikis urTierToba? am da sxva aqtualur sakiTxebze gazeT `aWarasTan~ saubrobs saerTaSoriso urTierTobebis specialisti, saqarTvelos sazogadoebriv saqmeTa institutis (jipa) profesori giorgi koberiZe.
– aSS-is prezidenti donald trampi gaxda. misi gamarjveba ra faqtorebma ganapiroba?
– donald trampis gamarjveba mTlianad agebuli iyo qveynis Sida faqtorebsa da mimdinare procesebze. kamala harisi ar iyo Zlieri oponenti, donald tramps hqonda ufro meti qarizma, meti politikuri warsuli da hyavda ufro meti fanatikuri mimdevari, vidre kamala hariss. yovelive aman, erTgvarad, ganapiroba trampis irgvliv didi jgufebis mobilizeba. meore mniSvnelovani faqtori iyo e. w. politikuri koreqtulobis sakiTxi, romelic wlebis ganmavlobaSi arsebobs amerikul politikur diskursSi. am mxrivac amerikeli mosaxleobis mniSvnelovani nawili gaerTianda trampis irgvliv. mesame aris sasazRvro faqtori -umniSvnelovanesi gamowveva amerikisTvis, radganac migraciis uzarmazari da gazrdili masStabi (miT ufro, roca msoflioSi krizisebi matulobs) aisaxa kidec amerikis SeerTebuli Statebis Sidapolitikur mTavar xedvaze. donald trampi acxadebda, rom is sazRvars daxuravda da Seamcirebda migrantebis raodenobas. es mniSvnelovani koziri iyo misTvis, radgan kamala harisma (romelsac ebara kidec es sakiTxi) sazRvris kontrols Tavi ver gaarTva.
– donald trampis gaprezidenteba rogor aisaxeba msoflio politikaze?
– donald trampis mTavari Tviseba da maxasiaTebelia misi araprognozirebadoba, rac Sesabamisad, aris misi rogorc didi minusi, aseve didi plusi, radgan Zalian rTuli iqneba, vinmem zustad ganWvritos misi Semdgomi nabijebi. sxvaTa Soris, jon boltoni, trampis yofili erovnuli usafrTxoebis mrCeveli, swored amis gamo akritikebda mas da ambobda, rom trampis politika rogorc warsulSi, arc axla iqneba Tanmimdevruli. . . igi politikas aagebs, ZiriTadad, sakuTar xedvebze, meore mxriv, aSS-s aqvs Tavisi saxelmwifo interesebi da es interesi da donald trampis kerZo xedvebi urTierTwinaaRmdegobrivi xangrZlivad ver iqneba, radgan gamoiwvevs seriozul kriziss. aqedan gamomdinare, tramps mainc mouwevs, metwilad, daeTanxmos amerikis sagareo saxelmwifo interesebs.
– aSS-is prezidents msoflioSi ra mTavari gamowvevebi elodeba?
– cxadia, mTavari gamowveva dakavSirebulia ukrainasTan, israelsa da taivanTan, aseve, CineTTan, romelic Zalian Zlieria da kidev ufro Zlierdeba, misi ekonomikac (miuxedavad garkveuli Seferxebebisa) mzardia, miT ufro, rom, praqtikulad, sabiTumo fasad yidulobs energoresursebs da ruseTi gaxda masze politikurad damokidebuli saxelmwifo. amasTan, mniSvnelovani faqtoria `briqsi~, romelic CineTis liderobiTaa formirebuli da aerTienebs, aseve, brazilias, indoeTs, ruseTs. amxela didi koaliciiT CineTi cdilobs, Seqmnas alternatiuli RerZi msofliosTvis, Sesabamisad es iqneba trampis administraciisTvis erT-erTi mTavari gamowveva. Mmas, upirvelesad, mouwevs ukrainis konfliqtTan dakavSirebiT im xazis gatareba, rasac didi xnis ganmavlobaSi aJRerebda, rom surs omis dasruleba. Ddidi albaTobiT, is am oms ver daasrulebs da axali realobis Sesabamisad mouwevs axali dRis wesrigis formireba, Semdeg ki sakuTari xazis gatareba, rac SesaZloa gulisxmobdes iaraRis met miwodebas ukrainisTvis, an piriqiT – iaraRis srul SezRudvas.
– mainc ras unda velodoT realurad?
– naklebad savaraudoa, Sedegiani iyos cecxlis SewyvetasTan da omis dasrulebasTan mimarTebiT trampis gancxadebebi, iqidan gamomdinare, rom amas sWirdeba yvela mxaris Tanxmoba. ruseTs Sorsmimavali gegmebi da pirobebi aqvs, ara mgonia, ubralod cecxlis Sewyvetas daTanxmdes, xolo, meore mxriv, ukraina garantiebis gareSe ar daTanxmdeba cecxlis Sewyvetas, vinaidan es droebiTi cecxlis Sewyveta iqneba. ruseTisTvis cecxlis Sewyveta niSnavs, rom man miaRwia warmatebas da SeinarCuna dakavebuli teritoriebi, xolo ukrainisTvis garantiebis gareSe cecxlis Sewyveta suicidia, mas sWirdeba dasavluri mxardaWera. usafrTxoebis maqsimaluri garantiebis gareSe (natoSi upirobo gaerTianeba, an mis teritoriaze ucxo qveynis samxedroebis ganTavseba) ukraina cecxlis Sewyvetas namdvilad ar daTanxmdeba.
– ramdenad mosalodnelia, rom trampma ukrainas aiZulos ruseTTan samSvidobo molaparakebis dawyeba misTvis miuRebeli pirobebiT?
– vfiqrob, rom TiTqmis gamoricxulia, ukraina daTanxmdes ruseTTan molaparakebebs miuRebeli pirobebiT, Tundac es iyos amerikis mxridan iZuleba, magram, meore mxriv, mniSvnelovnia imis gansazRvrac, rom aSS-s aqvs Tavisi interesebi, rasac ase martivad trampis xedva ver ugulebelyofs. aSS-is interesi namdvilad ar aris, rom Seiqmnas warmatebuli dapyrobis precedenti evropis kontinentze da ukraina gamovides sruliad damarcxebuli. Tu ukraina yovelgvari garantiis da usafrTxoebis pirobebis gareSe dajdeba ruseTTan mosalaparakeblad, es iqneba miniSneba, rom SesaZlebelia, daTmos Tavisi teritoriebi, rasac ruseTi momavalSi saTavisod gamoiyenebs. aSS-isTvis mniSvnelovania ruseTis dasusteba-gamofitva da ara gaZliereba, radgan Tu ruseTi gaZlierda, miviRebT kidev ufro met saSiS, agresiul sxva saxelmwifos, maT Soris CineTs da isini am precedents gamoiyeneben saTavisod. amitom naklebad savaraudoa, aSS-ma sakuTari interesebi ugulebelyos. arsebobs kidev erTi Zala – evropa, romelsac Tavis mxriv (Tu amerikam daiwo ukrainis iZuleba kompromisze) mouwevs rigi RonisZiebebis gatareba ukrainis dasaxmareblad, Torem sxva SemTxvevaSi TviT evropis usafrTxoeba dadgeba eWvqveS.
– gverds ver avuvliT im realobas, rom omi gaxangrZlivda da monawileTa gamofitvis fazaSia Sesuli. . .
– omi gamofitvis fazaSia Sesuli, magram jerjerobiT arcerT mxares ar etyoba, rom srulad gamofitulia. ra Tqma unda, orive mxares uWirs, maT Soris profesiuli cocxali Zalis mxriv. vxedavT, rom ukraina mTlianad dasavlur teqnikazea damokidebuli, xolo ruseTi teqnikas ufro xarjavs, vidre awarmoebs. vxedavT imasac, rom mas mZime teqnikis deficiti aqvs. amasTan, ruseTis teritoriaze, kurskis olqSi koreelebis gamoCena miuTiTebs, rom ruseTs cocxali Zalis mxriv uWirs da sWirdeba sxva qveynis daxmareba, miT ufro, Tuki saubaria `sazarbazne xorcze~. . . ruseTi ver axorcielebs organizebul Setevas, didi raodenobiT cocxal masas (swored Crdilokoreelebs) iyenebs SetevebSi da cdilobs zewolas ukrainelebze, saubaria daaxloebiT aTi aTas koreelze. es zamTari iqneba Zalian kritikuli ukrainisTvisac da ruseTisTvisac, Tumca, maRali albaTobiT, ukrainisTvis ufro kritikuli iqneba, radgan, metwilad, ukrainis teritoriaze mimdinareobs omi. sxvaTa Soris, evropisTvisac rTuli iqneba es zamTari resursebis TvalsazrisiT. am zamTris Semdeg ufro bevri ram gamoCndeba.
– uaxloes momavalSi ramdenad realuria ukrainaSi arCevnebis Catareba da ramdenad mosalodnelia, xelisuflebaSi antidasavluri Zala movides?
– ukrainaSi omi rogorc ki dasruldeba, arCevnebi Catardeba, amaze ori azri ar arsebobs. mokle vadaSi naklebad savaraudoa, rom ukrainis xelisuflebaSi antidasavluri Zala movides, Tumca grZelvadianad ruseTi Seecdeba ukrainaSi antidasavluri Zalis moyvanas da maqsimalurad antidasavluri ganwyobebis Seqmnas. unda giTxraT, rom ukrainaSi Zalian Zlieria nacionalisturi muxti, amitom naklebad savaraudoa, qveyanam rusuli mxare daiWiros. am mxriv, aRsaniSnavia, rom ukrainaSi prorusuli mosaxleoba, ZiriTadad, cxovrobda doneckis da luganskis olqebSi, romlebsac omi yvelaze mZimed Seexo – rusebma prorusuli mosaxleobis nawili an daxoces, an okupaciis qveS imyofebian, Sesabamisad, im hipotetur arCevnebSi, romelic SesaZloa Catardes ukrainaSi, nakleb savaraudoa, prorusulma Zalebma miiRon monawileoba.
– ukrainac da saqarTveloc didadaa damokidebuli aSS-is principulobaze iseT sakiTxebSi, rogorebicaa natos gafarToeba da ruseTis ambiciebis moTokva. ras unda velodoT am mimarTebiT?
– saqarTvelos sakiTxi aris Zalian Rirebuli da mniSvnelovani amerikisTvis, radgan Cveni qveyana strategiuli derefani,a romlis dacva da floba amerikisTvis kritikulad mniSvnelovania. amave dros, CineTi Cvens regionSi, ruseTTan erTad, ufro da ufro metad aris warmodgenili. saqarTvelos xelisuflebas proCinuri pozicia araerTxel daufiqsirebia da strategiuli partniorobac gaformebuli aqvs masTan. maRali albaTobiT, es iqneba dasavleTis Sejaxeba rusul-Cinur interesebTan… aq erTi mxare Zlierad iqneba warmodgenili. vfiqrob, saqarTvelosTan mimarTebiT dasavleTis mxridan aqtiuroba ufro meti iqneba mokle vadaSi, vidre ukrainasTan, radgan saqarTvelo dasavleTisTvis jer dakarguli ar aris. ukraina ufro rTuli gamowvevis winaSea, iq ufro meti krizisia gadasaWreli, xolo saqarTvelos sakiTxi SedarebiT martivad SeiZleba mogvardes.
– samwuxarod, saqarTvelo-aSS-is urTierTobebi arc ise saxarbieloa. es ra faqtorebma ganapiroba?
– vityodi, rom saqarTvelosa da aSS-is saxelmwifoebs Soris urTierToba ar aris gafuWebuli, ufro swori iqneba Tqma, rom saqarTvelos xelisuflebasa da dasavleTs Soris aris urTierToba gafuWebuli, rac ganapiroba saqarTvelos xelisuflebis mxridan mizanmimarTulma rusulma ritorikam – TiTqos omSi gviTreven, TiTqos globaluri omis partia arsebobs da a. S. es iyo Zalian mZime Sedegis mqone. dasavleTi maqsimalurad iyo dainteresebuli saqarTveloSi dasavluri Rirebulebebis mxardaWeriT, SeiZleba vTqvaT, rom bolomde edga `qarTul ocnebas~ gverdiT, 2022 wlamde, sanam ruseT-ukrainis omi daiwyeboda da sanam saqarTvelos xelisuflebam Riad rusuli ritorika ar daiwyo. samwuxarod, saqarTvelos xelisuflebam ara marto airCia prorusuli kursi, aramed fsoni dado ruseTze, CaTvala, rom ruseTi Zalian Zlieria da misi damarcxeba SeuZlebeli iqneboda, rac ase ar aRmoCnda. swored axla xdeba am yvelafris gadajgufeba. aRsaniSnavia, rom evropis da aSS-is mxridan saqarTveloSi Catarebuli arCevnebis legitimacia ar momxdara, Sesabamisad, romel xelisuflebasTan da ragvarad moxdeba urTierTobis aRdgena, mogvianebiT gamoCndeba.
– ramdenad mniSvnelovania saqarTvelosTvis aSS-is mkafio mxardaWera saxelmwifoebriobis ganmtkicebis TvalsazrisiT?
– aSS aris Cveni erT-erTi mTavari samxedro partniori, wvrTnisa da aRWurvis programebi, romlebic arsebobs ori aTwleulia, praqtikulad, emsaxureba saqarTvelos samxedro Zalebis gaZlierebas, mis mxardaWeras. aseve, Cven gvaqvs ekonomikuri mxardaWera, saubaria asobiT milion dolarze, romelic saqarTvelos ekonomikis gaZlierebas, infrastruqturis ganviTarebas moxmarda. uzarmazari dasavluri dafinansebiT (aSS, evrokavSiri) daigo gzebi. saubaria asobiT kilometr gzaze. . . aseve, ekonomikaSi, kulturaSi, Zeglebis dacvaSi maT mier uzarmazari fulia Cadebuli. am daxmarebis gareSe saqarTvelos saxelmwifoebrioba rTulad ifunqcionirebda. Tu dasavleTis mxardaWera Semcirda an gaCerda, SeiZleba miviRoT bevrad mZime realoba da visurvoT, rom es ase ar moxdes. . . CineTi Cveni mxardamWeri ar iqneba, radgan sadac igi Sedis, ekonomikis simdidre ar Seaqvs, CineTs Seaqvs korufcia da Sehyavs masze damokidebuli saxelmwifoebi.
– rogorc cnobilia, trampi mTavar mowinaaRmdeged CineTs miiCnevs, am mxriv ra procesebis ganviTarebas elodebiT?
– CineTi aris didi RerZi, is ar gaxlavT mxolod damoukidebeli moTamaSe. Cinur RerZSi Sedis rigi samxreTamerikuli saxelmwifoebi, igive venesuela, brazilia, aseve, CrdiloeT korea, ruseTi, anu es didi Zalis mqone RerZia. ra Tqma unda, es RerZi ar aris dasavluri RerZis simZlavris am etapze, magram Zalian swrafad viTardeba. CineTi Zalian swrafad miiwevs win da Tuki dasavleTis da Cinur RerZs SevadarebT, maT Soris sxvaobas mxolod is gamokveTs, rom dasavleTs ufro meti faseulobebi aqvs da am faseulobebiT izidavs sxva saxelmwifoebs. swored ideaze dgas dasavleTi, xolo CineTs msgavsi ideologiis SeTavazeba ar SeuZlia iqidan gamomdinare, rom am ideologiebs is ar flobs Tavis TavSi. erTaderTi, rasac vxedavT CineTis SemTxvevaSi, esaa avtokratiuli RerZi, oRond ekonomikurad dawinaurebuli. . . Tu Cven civ oms ganvixilavT (60-ian wlebSi), roca iyo ideasa da politikur-samxedro Zalebs Soris dapirispireba, dRes es idea ar arsebobs, dRes gvaqvs mxolod samxedro mimarTuleba, rac dasavleTs erTgvar upiratesobas aZlevs.
– dabolos, ra unda gaakeTos Cvenma qveyanam, rom dasavluri banakidan gariyuli ar viyoT?
– vfiqrob, rom saqarTvelos saxelmwifom dasavluri kursi ara mxolod unda SeinarCunos, aramed dasavleTs unda mosTxovos ufro meti aqtiuroba. samxreT kavkasiaSi saqarTvelom sakuTari Tavis fasis xazgasma unda gaakeTos, amasTanave mosTxovos aSS-s da evropas, rom daCqarebuli wesiT moxdes misi miReba evrokavSirsa da natoSi, anu unda mosTxovos usafrTxoebis qolga saqarTvelosTvis, aseve, Cvenma qveyanam unda daiwyos dasavleTTan aqtiuri samxedro TanamSromloba da miiRos dasavluri SeiaraReba, raTa is iyos imdenad angariSgasawevi Zala, rom agresorma ver SeZlos saqarTveloSi agresiuli qmedebebis ganxorcieleba.