„სიმართლე და სამართლიანობა – განვითარებული საზოგადოების ბარომეტრი“

`simarTlisa da samarTlis, CagrulTa da patimarTa uflebebis dacvisa da socialuri uzrunvelyofis saerTaSoriso organizacia~ male Tavisi arsebobis 20 wlis iubiles aRniSnavs. misi damfuZnebeli da xelmZRvanelia Cveni Tanaqalaqeli, batoni givi mamulaZe, saukeTeso profesionali da keTilSobili pirovneba, romelic Tavis unarsa da SesaZleblobas ar zogavs, rom SeWirvebul Tanamemamuleebs socialuri yofa gauumjobesdes, daicvas maTi uflebebi. rogor iRvwis amisTvis, bolo dros ganxorcielebuli aqtivovebidan ra ipyrobs yuradRebas, ra aris organizaciis saqmianobis ZiriTadi mizani? – pasuxebs am interviuSi ipoviT.

– ram gadagawyvetinaT uflebadamcveli gamxdariyaviT, ratom airCieT es gza?

– simarTle da samarTlianoba Cemi Sinagani me da cxovrebis nawilia. bavSvobidanve ver vitandi kacTa Cagvras da uTanasworobas, adamianTa mimarT araswor damokidebulebas, rac ufro vizrdebodi, Cem irgvliv ufro TvalnaTliv vxedavdi erTmaneTTan adamianebis arajansaR damokidebulebas, piradi gandidebisTvis sxvisi uflebebis xelyofas, msgavs damokidebulebas xSirad CemTan mimarTebaSic vgrZnobdi, radgan mravalSviliani, siduxWireSi mcxovrebi ojaxis warmomadgeneli viyavi. Tuki materialurad giWirda, sazogadoebis didi nawili tol-sworad ar gTvlida, swored es iyo pirveli mizezi, ramac gadamawyvetina, kargad meswavla da damemtkicebina, rom aravisze naklebi ar viyavi. im droisaTvis aseTi stereotipi iyo gavrcelebuli – `ufulod~ anu gaWirvebuli umaRles saswavlebelSi verafriT Caabarebdi. Cemi azriT, Tuki adamians mizani gaaCnia, miuRweveli araferia (ra Tqma unda, utopiur mizans ar vgulisxmob). es stereotipi Cvens ojaxSi jer ufrosma Zmam nodar mamulaZem daarRvia, ufulod kidevac Caabara da wiTel diplomzec daamTavra. mec Cavabare da swavlis periodSi uflebadarRvevis sakmaod bevr faqts vxedavdi da SeZlebisdagvarad vewinaaRmdegebodi, usamarTloba sakuTar Tavzec gamovcade, ramac gadamawyvetina, ukompromisod mebrZola mis winaaRmdeg. Aamitom gadavwyvite, TanamoazreebTan erTad damearsebina uflebadamcveli arasamTavrobo organizacia, 2025 wlis 20 ivniss Cveni `simarTlisa da samarTlis, CagrulTa da patimarTa uflebebis dacvisa da socialuri uzrunvelyofis saerTaSoriso organizacia~ 20 wlis iubiles aRniSnavs. Aamayi var, rom Cems gundTan erTad mravali kargi saqme gamikeTebia, bevri adamianis guli gamixarebia.

– bolo wlebSi gakeTebuli saqmeebidan romels gamoarCevdiT?

– Znelia, erTi an ori saqme gamoyo, magram, vfiqrob, erTi mainc gansakuTrebuli iyo. qobuleTis municipalitetis daba CaqvSi erT asakovan, SezRuduli SesaZleblobis pirs sajaro reestrSi daregistrirebuli sakuTrebis ufleba gauuqmes, ris Sedegadac misi ojaxis gamosaxlebas moiTxovda ruseTis federaciis moqalaqe im motiviT, TiTqos mas yofil sabWoTa meurneobaSi axloblisagan 28.00 kvm sacxovrebeli farTi memkvidreobiT ergeboda. dokumentaciiT ar dgindeboda arsebulis identoba moqalaqis sakuTrebaSi arsebul miwis nakveTsa da Senoba-nagebobaze. faqti saxeze iyo, sasamarTlos namsjeli hqonda da miRebuli iyo gadawyvetileba dakavebuli farTidan am ojaxis gamosaxlebaze. ojaxi umweo da socialurad daucveli iyo. ra Tqma unda, maT advokatis ayvanis saxsrebi ar gaaCndaT. aRniSnul pirovnebas SemTxveviT Sevxvdi baTumis saqalaqo sasamarTloSi, saCivris Setana surda da rogor moqceuliyo, ar icoda. mdgomareoba Zalian cudi iyo da gamosworebis perspeqtiva ar Canda, radgan sasamarTlos gadawyvetileba kanonierad ZalaSi Sesuli iyo. Cvens mxares, saqmis warmoebis dros, mravali arsebiTi Secdoma hqonda daSvebuli. 28. 00 kvm farTis sanacvlod ruseTis federaciis moqalaqis saxelze aRiricxa ara 28.00 kvm sacxovrebeli farTi, aramed am batonis mier aSenebuli 62.00 kvm sacxovrebeli farTi da 1200 kvm miwis nakveTi. iZulebuli gavxdiT, samoqalaqo wesiT dagvewyo dava, ukanonod miRebuli Semosavlis kuTxiT wavediT, magram administraciuli gadawyvetilebis saqmeSi daSvebuli Secdomebi gviSlida xels. sxvadasxva uwyebidan dokumetebis gamoTxovam, Sejerebam da mowmeebTan (Zvel mezoblebTan) gasaubrebam mogvca saSualeba, `sacxovrebeli sadgomiT sargeblobisas warmoSobili urTierTobis Sesaxeb~ saqarTvelos kanonis mixedviT Segvetana sarCeli, ramac Sedegi gamoiRo. dava samive instanciis sasamarTloSi gagrZelda, magram sabolood, samarTalma puri Wama. samwuxarod, manamade gardaicvala is batoni. . . var amayi, radgan Cveni brZolis Sedegad dRes aRniSnul farTSi misi col-Svili cxovrobs.

– am wlis dekadaSi ra mniSvnelovani aqtivobebi ganaxorcieleT?

– Cveni muSaoba erTferovani da sworxazovani araa, damokidebulia moqalaqeTa momarTvianobaze. Tuki vxedavT, rom moqalaqeTa uflebebi irRveva, ar aqvs mniSvneloba, ra saxis uflebadarRvevaa, vcdilobT, SeZlebisdagvarad, davexmaroT da swor gzaze davayenoT. TiTqmis yoveldRiurad gvaqvs gasaubrebebi da konsultaciebi. problemebis identificirebis Semdeg vaxdenT Sesabamis reagirebas, xSirad mimowerebiTa da rekomendaciebiTac vagvarebT moqalaqeTa uflebebis darRvevasTan dakavSirebul problemebs.

– rogorc vici, ZiriTadad, socialur TemebTan da miwis daregistrirebasTan dakavSirebiT mogmarTaven, gviambeT amis Sesaxeb. . .

– socialuri Temebis ganxilva Cveni yoveldRiuri muSaobis nawilia. yvelaze meti operaciis dafinansebasa da medikamentebis ufasod miRebaSi daxmarebas gvTxovs. samwuxarod, moqalaqeTa umravlesobam ar icis maTi uflebebi – vis mimarTos, ra gziT moipovos daxmareba, rac maT yoveldRiur yofa-cxovrebas arTulebs. Zalian cudia, rom 21-e saukuneSi saqarTvelos moqalaqeebi mSivrebi arian, ojaxis gamokveba ar SeuZliaT da bevri lukma-purs nagvis yuTebSi eZebs. sakuTari TvaliT maqvs nanaxi, Ramis saaTebSi, didi suparmarketebis sanagve yuTebTan rogor dgas rigi gadayrili produqtebidan `vargisi~ sakvebis asaRebad. mikvdeba guli, rodesac socialur qselebSi gamoqveynebul gulisamaCuyebel videokadrebs vxedav, gadarCenisaTvis mimarTvebs rom vusmen. uneburad giCndeba kiTxva, sad aris saxelmwifo?… nuTu SeuZlebelia am xalxze saTanado yuradRebis miqceva da daxmareba… kanoniT ar unda gvyavdes msgavsi kategoriis xalxi saqarTveloSi, saxelmwifo TiTqos Sesabamis daxmarebas uwevs socialurad daucvel mosaxleobas, magram ratomRac yvela adresatamde ar midis Sesabamisi daxmareba. Bbolo xanebSi miwis nakveTebis daregistrirebisas Tavi iCina axalma problemebma. kerZod, xSiria SemTxvevebi, roca konkretuli moqalaqis marTlzomier sargeblobaSi arsebul miwis nakveTze sxvebs SeaqvT gancxadebebi da iTxoven sxvisi kuTvnili qonebis sakuTrebaSi registracias. Tuki miwis nakveTze sajaro reestrSi wardgenil dokumentaciaze dafiqsirda zeddeba, sajaro reestri arcerT moqalaqeze ar axdens sakuTrebis registracias, riTac sargebloben arakeTilsindisieri moqalaqeebi. miwis nakveTebze uflebaTa sistemurma da sporadulma registraciam warmoSva axali problemebi, sazogadoeba, mezoblebi daapirispira erTmaneTs. aseTi faqtebi mravladaa soflad da TvalsaCinoa iq mcxovrebi mosaxleobisaTvis.

– Cveni mosaxleoba ramdenadaa gaTviTcnobierebuli Tavis uflebebSi da am mimarTebiT ras akeTebT?

– samwuxarod, mosaxleobis umetesoba ar aris gaTviTcnobierebuli Tavis uflebebSi, ris gamoc xSirad irRveva maTi kanonieri uflebebi. Cinovnikebs, sajaro moxeleebs ar uyvarT aqtiuri moqalaqeebi, radgan isini maTi ukanono qmedebebis mamxileblebi arian. kanonis mcodne moqalaqe kanonier moTxovnebs ayenebs da icavs Tavis uflebebs, ar aZlevs Cinovnikebs kanonis darRvevis SesaZleblobas. Cveni misiaa konsultaciebis gaweva da swor gzaze dayeneba. Tu moqalaqem icis, misi problemis gadasaWrelad vis mimarTos, ra gzas daadges, uadvildeba problemis mogvareba. xSiria SemTxveva, rodesac modis moqalaqe da acxadebs ama Tu im moxelem uari uTxra samarTlian moTxovnaze. rodesac vTxovT Sesabamis mtkicebulebas, dgindeba, rom, umetes SemTxvevaSi, maT oficialurad ar miumarTavT uflebamosili organosTvis da mxolod zepirsityvieri ganmartebebiT Semoifarglebian. arsebuli problemis mogvarebisTvis aucilebelia, werilobiTi formiT mimarTo uflebamosil administraciul organos da moiTxovo oficialuri pasuxi, dadebiTi an uaryofiTi, raTa moaxdino Semdgom masze samarTlebrivi reagireba. Cveni pirveli rCevaa moqalaqeebisadmi, rom sakuTari problemis mogvarebisaTvis mimarTon uflebamosil organos, waradginon Sesabamisi mtkicebulebani da maTgan moiTxovon oficialuri pasuxebi werilobiT, raTa SevZloT daxmareba. Tuki administraciuli organo daakmayofilebs maT moTxovnas, xom kargi, Tu ara da, gvecodineba, ramdenad samarTlianad uTxra uari sakiTxis mogvarebaze. Tu usafuZlo, dausabuTebeli uari aqvs administraciul organos naTqvami, gavasaCivrebT zemdgom administraciul organoSi an sasamarTloSi. Cven vexmarebiT moqalaqeebs dokumentaciisa da mtkicebulebebis mopovebaSi.

– SegiZliaT gaixsenoT bolo periodSi Tqven mier gadaWrili problema, romelic moqalaqis samuSaos da damsaqmebels ukavSirdeba?

– msgavs sakiTxze iSviaTad mogvmarTaven moqalaqeebi, albaT imitom, rom sajaro samsaxurebSi umeteswilad, dasaqmebulebi arian nepotizmiT, nacnob-megobrebis wyalobiT, samagierod `Semsruleblebi~ arian `keTilismyofelTa~, davalebebis, umetesoba ar akmayofilebs sakvalifikacio moTxovnebs, amitomaa, rom xSirad administraciul organoebTan Cvens gancxadeba-werilebze absurduli standartuli pasuxebi mogvdis. xSirad, dasmul SekiTxvaze Seusabamo pasuxebs gvaZleven, radgan ar ician, ra gvipasuxon. sajaro samsaxurebSi kvalificiuri kadrebis naklebobaa. kvalificiuri kadrebisaTvis sajaro samsaxuri ar aris momxibvleli, radgan iq saTanadod ar arian dafasebulebi. maT SeuZliaT, damoukideblad Seqmnan struqturuli erTeulebi, sawarmo-organizaciebi, saidanac ufro met Semosavals miiReben da dafasebulnic iqnebian, sxvebze ar iqnebian damokidebuli. kerZo seqtorSi, ZiriTadad, mSeneblobazea dasaqmebuli Cveni moqalaqeebis umravlesoba. marTalia, Sromis Sesabamisi anazRaureba ar aqvT, magram sazRvargareT wasvlas da sxva qveyanaSi (monur) muSaobas saxlSi, ojaxTan axlos, samSobloSi dasaqmeba urCevniaT… axali regulaciebiT, moqalaqeTa dasaqmeba 40-dan 48 saaTs ar unda aRematebodes kviraSi, rac TiTqmis miRweulia, magram Sesrulebuli samuSaos Sesabamisi anazRaureba ar aqvT, saxelmwifom aucileblad unda gaataros saWiro RonisZiebebi, raTa moqalaqem miiRos mis mier Sesrulebuli samuSaos adekvaturi anazRaureba.

– rogorc viciT, Cvens sasamarTloSi msgavsi sadavo saqmeebi wlobiT grZeldeba da am mxriv evropaSi rogoria suraTi?

– sasamarTloSi saqmeebis warmoebis wlobiT gagrZelebam bolo wlebSi sistematuri xasiaTi miiRo, xSiria SemTxvevebi, rodesac moqalaqes Seaqvs sarCeli sasamarTloSi misi moTxovnis dasakmayofileblad, magram imden xans ar ixileba, rom sasamarTlos gadawyvetileba, xSir SemTxvevaSi, azrs kargavs. Aarada, moqalaqem erTi dRiT rom daagvianos sarCelis, Sesageblis, saCivris wardgenis vada, misi sakiTxi ar ganixileba da, ra Tqma unda, ar dakmayofildeba, 100 procentiT marTalic rom iyos. xSiria SemTxveva, roca moqalaqe Tavisi sarCelis ganxilvisaTvis saxelmwifo baJs – 3 000 lars ixdis pirveli instanciis sasamarTloSi, miuxedavad amisa, maTi moTxovna kanoniT dadgenil droSi ar ixileba, moqalaqe (uneblied) arRvevs kanons – kanoniT dadgenil droSi ver asaCivrebs – gasaCivrebis vadas uSvebs, is isjeba, erTmeva gasaCivrebis ufleba, xolo sasamarTlo rom kanoniT dadgenil droSi ar ixilavs saCivars, ar isjeba. . . iusticiis umaRles sabWoSi Setanil gancxadeba-saCivrebze pasuxoben, mosamarTleebis sakmarisi raodenoba ar gvyavs da amavdroulad, ar gvaqvs saqmis ganxilvisaTvis sakmarisi sasamarTlos sxdomis darbazebi. . . rac absurdulia, radgan neba rom arsebobdes, am problemis gadawyveta umokles droSi SesaZlebelia. sakmarisze meti kvalificiuri moqalaqe gvyavs, romelTac mosamarTleobis gamocda Cabarebuli aqvT. rezervSi bevri mosamarTlea romlebic dasaqmebas elodebian, sxdomis darbazebis sakiTxi ufro advili gadasawyvetia. saxelmwifo sakuTrebaSi aris uamravi Senoba-nageboba, romelTa gamoyenebac SeiZleba sasamarTlo procesebis Casatareblad. yvelaze didi problema isaa, rom marTlmsajuleba moryeulia saqarTveloSi, SeiZleba iTqvas, marTlmsajuleba ar arsebobs Cvens qveyanaSi. am mxriv, evropuli standartidan Zalian Sors varT, evropaSi moqalaqem icis, rom Tuki misi uflebebi dairRva, sasamarTlos gziT, samarTlianad da droulad moxdeba misi saCivris ganxilva. saqarTveloSi TiTqos daiwyo reformebi, magram evropul samarTals da standarts `binokliT~ vumzerT. . . saxelmwifos gadasaWreli aqvs es problema. . .

– ucxoeTis moqalaqeebi Tu mogmarTaven daxmarebisTvis?

– xSiria ucxo qveynis moqalaqeebis momarTvianoba, isini, ZiriTadad, ormagi moqalaqeobis miRebisaTvis daxmarebas iTxoven, amavdroulad, ucxoelTa umravlesoba saqarTveloSi uZravi qonebis SeZeniT aris dainteresebuli. iZenen Zvirad Rirebul apartamentebs da Semdgom aqiraveben. ucxoelTaTvis saqarTveloSi cxovreba momxiblavia. isini Tavisuflad ewevian biznessaqmianobas, ratomRac maT meti privilegia gaaCniaT saxelmwifosgan, vidre saqarTvelos moqalaqeebs, cxadia, kanonmdebloba am kuTxiT dasaxvewia. mivesalmebi proeqtebs ,,awarmoe saqarTveloSi“ da ,,yvelaferi qarTuli“. qarTuli produqcia SeRavaTian konkurenciaSi unda iyos ucxour produqciasTan mimarTebaSi, miT umetes, rom Cveni soflis meurneobis produqcia ufro xarisxiani da ekologiurad sufTaa!

– kidev ra saxis problemebia Cvens realobaSi, romlis daZlevisTvisac iRvwiT?

– ar arsebobs sfero, sadac raime saxis problema ar arsebobs, magram qveynis Senebisa da ganviTarebisaTvis aucilebelia ganaTlebis xelSewyoba, rac dafuZnebuli unda iyos erovnul-patriotul suliskveTebaze. miRebuli ganaTleba qveynis aRmSeneblobas unda xmardebodes da ara calkeul CinovnikTa interesebs, qveynis ngrevisaken ar unda iyos mimarTuli. yoveli qarTvelisaTvis umTavresi unda iyos – mamuli, ena, sarwmuneoba. didi otia ioseliani brZanebda – qarTul enaze `vefxistyaosani~ daiwera. . . Tqven ra ar geyoT `sabJuturodo~, yvelafer qarTuls movla da gafrTxileba sWirdeba. miT umetes dedaenas da Tu es mcnebebi qarTvel kacs kargad eqneba gacnobierebuli, saqarTvelo ar gadaSendeba. swori kuTxiT unda mivudgeT aRmSeneblobisa da ganviTarebis sakiTxs da Sedegic Sesabamisi gveqneba. marTalia, patara qveyana varT, magram gagvaCnia didi potenciali, maT Soris genetikuri TvalsazrisiT. gvyavs uamravi kargi mecnieri, TvalsaCino, gamoCenili sazogado moRvawe, romelTac cotaTi xelSewyoba undaT, raTa qveyana ufro maRal relsebze gadaiyvanon. ganaTlebuli da ganviTarebuli sazogadoeba kanonmorCilia, kanonmorCil adamianebs SeuZliaT didi saqmeebis keTeba. isini unda gamoviyvanoT wina rigebSi, raTa biZgi miscen qveynis ganviTarebas. bevri ramis daZleva SeiZleba – upirvelesad, gaWirvebis, ekonomiuri siduxWiris. dReisaTvis qveynis winaSe upirvelesi problema mainc arasaTanado marTlmsajulebaa, ar xdeba kanonis aRsruleba da Tuki xdeba, umetes SemTxvevaSi, saqme gvaqvs SerCeviT samarTalTan. marTlmsajulebaSi arsebul problemebs Tu gadavWriT, qveyana swor gzaze wava da moqalaqeTa cxovrebis donec aiwevs. SeuZlebeli araferia. mTavaria neba. Cveni organizaciis saqmianobis ZiriTadi mizania, sakuTari wvlili SevitanoT sazogadoebis cnobierebis amaRlebaSi.

– dabolos, ramdenad aucilebelia, rom samarTlebriv normebsa da kanonebs moqalaqeebs siyrmidanve aswavlidnen?

– samarTlebrivi safuZvlebis da normebis swavleba siyrmidanve aucilebelia. pirovneba, romelsac samarTlebrivi analizi SeuZlia, am TvalsazrisiT, uSecdomod gaivlis cxovrebis gzas da Tavis uflebebs daicavs. kanonis arcodna ar aTavisuflebs moqalaqes pasuxismgeblobisagan da Tu Cven bavSvobidanve pasuxismgeblobian moqalaqeebs (momaval Taobas) aRvzrdiT, bevrad ufro ganviTarebul da samarTlian sazogadoebas miviRebT. bavSvobaSi gvaswavlidnen: ,,Tu saZirkveli dangreulia, maSin kedlebis aSenebisTvis yoveli Sroma dakargulia“, fuWad ar unda Caiaros Cvenma Sromam, mtkice saZirkveli unda CavyaroT, rom kargi zednaSeni miviRoT. samarTlebriv normebze gazrdili da ganaTlebuli axalgazrda advilad gaikvlevs cxovrebis gzas, ar daarRvevs kanons da ar Caidens borotebas. amitom skolaSi aucileblad unda iswavlebodes kanonisa da samarTlis safuZvlebi.

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