„ტრამპის მთავარი გამოწვევა ბოროტების ღერძის – ჩინეთის, რუსეთის და ირანის ერთიანობაა“

laSa xomeriki 593 50 82 69 –

am etapze, msoflios yuradRebas ruseT-ukrainis omTan dakavSirebiT aSS-ruseTis molaparakebebi ipyrobs. omi sami welia mimdinareobs da ukve garkveuli daskvnebis gakeTeba SeiZleba. miuxedavad imisa, rom ruseTma ukrainis teritoriis 20 procenti miiTvisa, am qveyanam (cxadia, dasavleTis mxardaWeriT) SeZlo saxelmwifoebriobis SenarCuneba. rogorc cnobilia, saudis arabeTSi Sexvedrebi imarTeba ruseTsa da amerikas Soris. ra interesebi ikveTeba da rogor aRiqvamen ukrainaSi Seqmnil viTarebas geopolitikuri moTamaSeebi, vin aris aSS-is umTavresi mteri? am da sxva aqtualur sakiTxebze gvesaubreba amerikismcodne giorgi labaZe.
– miunxenis konferenciaze aSS-is vice–prezidentis gamosvlas azrTa sxvadasxvaoba mohyva. realurad, jei di vensis gzavnilebSi ra ikiTxeboda da ramdenad adekvaturi iyo evrokavSiris pozicia am mimarTebiT?

– vensis sityva miunxenSi namdvilad istoriuli iyo. es galxdaT P, anu paradigmis sruli cvlileba aSS-sa da evrokavSirs Soris urTierTobebSi, Tumca namdvilad ar mimaCnia, rom es gamosvla Cven calsaxad uaryofiTad unda SevafasoT. vityodi, ufro piriqiT. konkretulad rom vTqvaT, vensis pretenziebi evropis kavSirTan, ZiriTadad, usafrTxoebis nawilSi Tanxis xarjvaze ukmayofilebas da evropis qveynebSi dauregulirebel saemigracio talRebs efuZneba. pirvel nawilSi, aSS iTxovs, rom NAnatos wevrma evropis qveynebma meti Tanxa daaxarjon usafrTxoebas, radgan amerikas SesaZloa, msoflios sxva nawilSi Seeqmnas usafrTxoebis problemebi. es samarTliani pretenziaa Semdegi mizezis gamo – evropis qveynebi msoflio imperiebi aRar arian da maTi wvdoma, magaliTad, wynar okeaneze, sakmaod SezRudulia, Tumca SeerTebuli Statebi msoflio Zalaa da misi interesi wynar okeaneze, istoriulad, didia. Tuki msoflio omebis SuaSi SeerTebuli Statebi, SeiZleba SecdomiT, magram mainc, moSorebuli iyo evropul saqmeebs, is maSinac did yuradRebas aqcevda wynar okeanes iaponiis dasabalanseblad. dReis mdgomareobiT, aseTi gamowveva wynar okeaneSi CineTia da amerikasac Tavisi samxedro SesaZleblobebis mimarTva swored iqiT sWirdeba. rac Seexeba vensis gamosvlis Sefasebas, vfiqrob, Cvens sazogadoebaSi igi sruliad arasworad iqna ganxiluli. imis gamo, rom man evrokavSiri gaakritika, romlis wevrobac Cven gvsurs, Cven ar mivaqcieT yuradReba im nawils, rac CvenTvis dRes ase mniSvnelovania. magaliTad, vensma Tqva, rom demokratia araa iq `sadac politikur oponentebs cixeSi svamen~. aseve, man Tqva, rom `mediis, arCevnebis gauqmeba da xalxis politikuri procesisgan gamoTiSva demokratiis ganadgurebis winapirobaa~. imis miuxedavad, rom es aseTi aqtualuria qarTuli e.w. protestanti nawilisTvis, maT, ratomRac, vensis aseTi mniSvnelovani da mxardamWeri sityvebi sul sxvagvarad gaiges.

– ra mTavari gamowvevebi elodeba tramps sagareo politikaSi da, am mxriv, rogor SeafasebdiT mis pirvel gadawyvetilebebs prezidentis rangSi?

– trampis da `respublikelebis~ mTavari gamowveva e.w. borotebis RerZi – CineTis, ruseTis da iranis erTianobaa. mecineba xolme, rodesac tramps da mis gunds prorusebs an ruseTis moyvarulebs eZaxian. maT, yvelam, kargad ician, Tu ras warmoadgens ruseTi da ramdens akeTebs amerikis interesebis sawinaaRmdegod, Tumca `respublikur partiaSi~ jer kidev wlebis win isaxeboda gegma imis Sesaxeb, rom CineTTan Sepirispireba mxolod ruseTis misgan gaTiSviT iqneba SesaZlebeli. ukve, daaxloebiT, Cans, rom trampis administracia am mimarTulebiT moqmedebs. qarTul sazogadoebaSi CineTis globaluri roli sakmaod mwirad aris Sefasebuli. CineTi msoflios qveynebis didi nawilis mTavari savaWro partnioria da mzardi samxedro SesaZleblobebi aqvs. rogorc aSS-is saxelmwifo mdivanma marko rubiom ganacxada, `CineTi, yvela SemTxvevaSi, Zlieri qveyana iqneba, Tumca Cveni axlandeli amocanaa, is ise ar gaZlierdes, rom masze damokidebulni gavxdeT~. amitom amerikelebi am sakiTxs imaze ufro meti seriozulobiT ekidebian, vidre Cven warmogvidgenia.

– `Cven mravalpolarul msoflios davubrundebiT, radgan arsebobs CineTi da, garkveulwilad, ruseTi~ – marko rubios es gancxadeba ramdenad SeiZleba gaxdes `axali ialtis~ mowvevis winapiroba?

– movlenebis bolodroindeli ganviTarebidan gamomdinare, maT Soris, pirdapir vityvi, amerikelebis iseTi Secdomidan gamomdinare, rogoric iyo buSis dros – erayi, xolo obamas dros – ruseTTan gadatvirTva da baidenis dros – ukrainaSi SeWris daSveba, amerikis sagareo politika umZimesi dilemebis winaSe dadga. trampis amJamindel administracias uwevs im sirTuleebTan gamklaveba, rac wlebis ganmavlobaSi amerikas daugrovda da sagareo politikuri gundisa da prezidentis dinamizmic amiTaa gamowveuli. faqtia, rom am viTarebaSi amerikas ar SeuZlia yvela safrTxes gaumklavdes, ris gamoc igi saubrobs mravalpolarul msoflioze. rogorc Cans, amerika Tanaxma iqneba, ruseTs hqondes garkveuli gavlenebi msoflios sxvadasxva nawilSi. igive SeiZleba iTqvas CineTzec, Tumca ufro zustad ra saxis gavlenebzea saubari da romel regionebs Seexeba yvelaferi es, jerjerobiT Zalian rTuli saTqmelia. faqtia, rom ruseTis survili, SeCerebuliyo natos gafarToeba, ar gamarTlda da misi mosazRvre fineTi ukve aliansis wevria, romelsac 1300-kilometriani sazRvari aqvs ruseTTan. xolo rogorc ukve vTqviT, CineTis, rogorc konkurentunariani saxelmwifos, molodini amerikelebs ukve aqvT. Cemi azriT, maTi xedva mSvidobis SenarCunebaa da es miiRweva naklebi konfrontaciis gziT. amas unda mivaweroT trampis sityvebi, rom `putini da si Zinpini misi megobrebi arian~.

– ramdenad mosalodnelia, aSS ruseTis moTxovnebs (gavlenis sferoebis gadanawileba Tundac postsabWoTa qveynebis sazianod) daTanxmdes?

– vfiqrob, am mxriv, ruseTis SesaZleblobebi sakmaod SezRudulia. erTi imitom, rom baltiispireTi ukve NAnatos wevria da iq maTi gavlenebi isedac mcirea. ukrainaSi, rogorc Cans, ruseTi teritoriebis nawilis dakavebas SeZlebs, Tumca gaveranebuli da Tavisive bombebiT dangreuli, dausaxlebeli adgilebi rTuli warmosadgenia, risTvis sWirdeba. me mgoni, ruseTs misi aRdgenis resursebi dRes namdvilad ar aqvs. rac yvelaze mTavaria, ruseTs aqvs demografiis seriozuli krizisi, rac kidev ufro gamoricxavs aRmosavleT ukrainaSi raime gegmis ganxorcielebas. darCa Sua azia da kavkasia. Sua aziaSi, energomatareblebis gamo, CineTis gavlenebi Zalian gazrdilia da ruseTi iq erTpirovnul operirebas veranairad SeZlebs. Cemi informaciiT, aseTive gegmebi aqvT amerikelebs, amitom ruseTi verc iq daibrunebs adrindel kontrols. rac Seexeba kavkasias, aq jer kidev bevri ramaa sasworze. saqarTvelos magaliTi rom moviyvanoT, dReis mdgomareobiT, CvenTan arsebuli geopolitikuri situacia sruliad daubalansebelia ruseTis da CineTis sasargeblod, anu amerika da dasavleTi, jerjerobiT, didwilad, aris TamaSidan gasuli, Tumca meeWveba, es viTareba didxans gagrZeldes. gvinda Tu ara, Cveni strategiuli bedia, rom savaWro gzebis kuTxiT mniSvneloba gvqondes. Cveni mniSvneloba am mxriv kidev ufro ikveTeba indoeTis TamaSSi Semosvlis gamo, radgan Tu CineTidan SeiZleboda, ruseTis gavliT, evropaSi tvirTebis Catana, indoeTidan es gza Zalian Soria. amdenad, momavali wlebis ganmavlobaSi saqarTvelos rolis zrda am mxriv gardauvalia dasavleTisTvis. Sesabamisad, saqarTvelo unda iyos interesTa balansis areali da ara romelime saxelmwifos pirdapiri gavlenis sfero. mxolod ase iqneba SesaZlebeli mSvidobis miRweva Cvens sazogadoebaSi.

– `Tu trampi gaagrZelebs am sijiutes da saqmeSic calsaxad daTmobs poziciebs, is ara marto sakuTar politikur figuras, aramed mTel Tavis gunds da partias daRupavs~… es Tqveni sityvebia…

– saqme is aris, rom trampi, rogorc figura, autsaideria da ar aris e.w. istebliSmentis, politikuri sazogadoebis nawili. igi biznesidan movida. Sesabamisad, aqamde misi warmateba emyareboda politikur gamarjvebebs da ara daTmobebs. mas hyavs sakmaod Zlieri opozicia da organizebuli, mis winaaRmdeg ganwyobili meinstrimmedia. amdenad, Tu igi mZime strategiul Secdomas dauSvebs, mis gundze es Zalian cudad aisaxeba. ukrainaSi SeerTebulma Statebma asobiT miliardi daxarja. warmovidginoT, strategiuli miznebi sul rom gamoricxuli iyos, ra azrze iqneba amerikeli gadasaxadis gadamxdeli, Tu misi fuli wyalSi gadaiyara da Sedegad araferi miiRo? riT iqneba trampi ukeTesi, magaliTad, jorj buSze, romlis mimarTac amerikelebs zustad igive pretenzia hqondaT da Zalian kritikulebi iyvnen? swored amitom trampi apirebs, SeTanxmeba dados ukrainasTan, rom ukrainulma resursebma erTgvari kompensacia uzrunvelyos, magram rogor moxerxdeba es usafrTxoebis garantiebis gareSe? ra Tqma unda, am xelSekrulebas azri ar eqneba, Tu ruseTi oms gaagrZelebs da kievamde Cava. marTalia, trampi pirdapir bevrs arafers ambobs amaze, Tumca igi, didi albaTobiT, uzrunvelyofs ukrainis samomavlo dacvas, raTa aRniSnul resursebze wvdoma SeinarCunos. aRniSnuli fraza rom davwere, im periodSi trampi zedmetad daubalansebel antiukrainul poziciebs aJRerebda, Tumca misi bolodroindeli ritorika da SeTanxmeba ukrainasTan, swored, zemoT aRniSnul mosazrebaze miuTiTebs.

– ruseTis ndoba rom ar SeiZleba, cnobili faqtia. ra garantia arsebobs, rom omis Sewyvetis Semdeg ruseTi kvlav ar daapirebs axali agresia ukrainis an sxva saxelmwifos mimarT?

– trampis prezidentoba imiT gamoirCeoda sxvebisgan, rom mis dros putini Tavs aravis dasxmia. rom gadavxedoT, buSis dros Cveni teritoriebi waiRes, obamas dros – yirimi, xolo baidenis dros srulmasStabiani omi wamoiwyes ukrainaSi. es trampis `mSvidoba Zalis meSveobiT~ politikis Sedegia. marTlac, albaT gaecaniT irakli alasanias intervius, romelmac ganacxada, rom saqarTvelos mimarT dasavleTis qveynebs iaraRze sruli embargo edoT, ra Tqma unda, ruseTis moTxovniT. amas 2017 wels trampis administraciisTvis xeli ar SeuSlia, rom saqarTvelosa da ukrainisTvis `javelinebi~ gadmoeca, romelmac udidesi roli iTamaSa buCasTan rusuli tankebis SeCerebaSi. ruseTi axal agresias mxolod Zalis demonstrirebis da Cvenebis SemTxvevaSi aaridebs Tavs. SeerTebuli StatebisTvis msoflio mSvidoba Zalian mniSvnelovania, radgan mas aqvs interesi, amerikaSi kidev ufro gaizardos warmoeba da rac SeiZleba meti bazari moicvas. amitom, igi ecdeba am interesis ganxorcielebas.

– analitikosebi acxadeben, rom trampi ufro metad xistia mokavSireebis, vidre ruseTis da CineTis mimarT. Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb. . .

– es saintereso fenomenia. rogorc TavSi ukve aRvniSne, amerikelebma SesaniSnavad ician, rom ruseTi da CineTi udidesi safrTxeebis Semcveli mtrebi arian, Tumca, rogorc Cans, es misi midgomaa sagareo politikuri Sedegebis miRwevis kuTxiT. CineTi trampis #1-li strategiuli mowinaaRmdegea, romelzec igi jer kidev 2015 wlidan saubrobs, amitom CineTisa da si Zin pinis siyvaruls mas veravin daabralebs. igive SeiZleba iTqvas putinzec, Tumca, rogorc ukve vTqvi, amerikis umTavresi mizani, dResdReobiT, dakarguli bazrebis kvlav dabruneba, amerikuli kompaniebis mier SeerTebul StatebSi reinvestireba da savaWro gzebis dacvaa. evrokavSirisa da NAnatos wevri qveynebi mas amaSi xels ar uSlian da enis moCleqiT saubari araa saWiro, rasac ver vityviT ruseTsa da CineTze. rac Seexeba evropas, maT mimarT arsebuli pretenziebi amerikis istoriaSi tramps pirvels ar gamouxatavs. hari trumenidan moyolebuli, isini sTxovdnen evropas, Tavdacvaze meti daexarjaT, Tumca, rogorc Cans, dRes is mocemulobaa, rom amerika amis absolutur aucileblobas xedavs, ris gamoc cdilobs, gamoaRviZos mokavSireebi. me Sors var im azrisgan, rom trampis yvela sajaro gancxadeba raRac qveteqsts Seicavs da brZnuli politikuri gamovlinebaa. ra Tqma unda – ara. is imden preskonferencias atarebs, bunebrivia, rig Secdomebsac dauSvebs, magram evropasTan midgoma namdvilad erT ZiriTad mizans emsaxureba da es mizani maT mier TavianT Tavdacvaze metis xarjvaa.

– dabolos, wydeba Tu ara ukrainaSi evropis da, miT umetes, postsabWoTa qveynebis momavali?

– didwilad, cxadia, rom, diax. sabednierod, garkveulwilad, ukve gamokveTilia ruseTis federaciis sisusteebi am konfliqtidan gamomdinare. warmovidginoT, rogor SeZlebda igi evropisTvis mniSvnelovani zianis miyenebas, Tuki ukrainis 20%-ze metis dakaveba ver moaxerxa? vfiqrob, swored amitomaa, rom evropis iseTi qveynebi, rogorebicaa espaneTi, italia, sakmaod arxeidan grZnoben Tavs da ar zrunavdnen TavianTi samxedro biujetis zrdaze, bolo 3 wlis ganmavlobaSic ki, Tumca trampis efeqtis dadebiTi mxareebi, pirvel rigSi, albaT, isaa, rom maT am midgomis Secvla mouwevT da evropac bevrad ufro daculi kontinenti iqneba. ra Tqma unda, Tuki ukrainis damarcxeba gaxdeboda SesaZlebeli, rigSi araerTi qveyana iyo, albaT maT Soris Cvenc, Tumca, sabednierod, es ar moxda. am etapze, vfiqrob, ukrainam iseTi donis samxedro potenciali gamoavlina, rom mis SeiaraRebasa da samomavlod kidev ufro gaZlierebaSi evropac da amerikac did rols iTamaSeben. warmovidginoT, Tuki amerikas namdvilad surs dauTmos meti dro msoflios sxva regionebs, ratom ugulebelyofs igi ukrainis msgavs brZolisunarian qveyanas, romelsac samomavlod udidesi roli SeuZlia iTamaSos evropis dacvaSi? ase rom, am droisTvis, vfiqrob, optimizmis safuZveli ukve arsebobs, gansakuTrebiT wiaRiseulis Sesaxeb ukrainasa da SeerTebul Statebs Soris dadebuli SeTanxmebis Semdeg.