„უნდა მოიძებნოს ცივილიზაციის წინა ფრთაზე მყოფი ქვეყნებისა და ჩვენი ეროვნული ინტერესების თანხვედრის ველი“
marTalia, opozicia kategoriulad iTxovs axal saparlamento arCevnebs da mosaxleobas arwmunebs, rom xelisuflebas mouwevs kompromisze wasvla, magram jerjerobiT realoba sxvagvaria. saprotesto muxtma iklo, opozicia daqsaqsulia, mosaxleobis nawili – indiferentuli, mmarTveli partia ki am mxriv Sekrulia miuxedavad imisa, rom aRmasrulebel xelisuflebaSi sakadro cvlilebebi ganxorcielda. evrokavSirSi Semavali qveynebi (gamonaklisi ungreTi da slovakeTia) da aSS jerjerobiT ar aRiareben arsebuli xelisuflebis legitimurobas, rac, cxadia, Cvens qveyanas garkveul diskomforts uqmnis rogorc politikuri, ise ekonomikuri keTildReobis TvalsazrisiT. mmarTvel gundsa da opozicias Soris urTierTobis daregulirebac kvlav problemad rCeba. ra aris amis mizezi, ram miiyvana Cveni qveyana am mdgomareobamde, anu ra Secdomebi dauSves politikur speqtrSi? amis garkvevas analitikos vaJa beriZesTan erTad SevecadeT, gTavazobT masTan intervius.
– `Cven ukve ufro da ufro vemsgavsebiT azerbaijanul, Turqul, somxur da TviT rusul demokratiasac ki~ – Tqveni aseTi Tvalsazrisi ram ganapiroba, raa TvalsaCino?
– demokratia, Zveli berZnebidan moyolebuli, sxvadasxva epoqaSi sxvadasxvanairad aRiqmeboda TanamedroveTa mier. demokratia, deklarirebuli mizani – rom demokratiulad, anu xalxis mier imarTos qveyana, panacea ar aris. demokratia sazogadoebis SeTanxmebis sagani da miznis miRwevis saukeTeso saSualebaa. Tavi rom davaneboT CerCils, romelmac Tqva, rom es sistema xarvezebiania, magram ukeTesi ar arsebobso, da aseve, Tavi rom davaneboT 2500 wlis winandel Tukidides damokidebulebas ukidegano demokratiisadmi (igi, mogexsenebaT, oligarqiisa da demokratiis nazavs aniWebda upiratesobas), demokratia aris procesi da miznis miRwevis saSualeba. aqedan gamomdinare, Cemi pasuxic Tqvens SekiTxvaze – rusebic darwmunebulebi arian, rom demokratia aqvT, Turqebic, azerbaijanelebic da, raRa Tqma unda, Cveni dRevandeli xelisuflebis mxardamWerebic. maT msjelobaSi aris WeSmaritebis marcvali, magram mTlianobaSi arasruli, tendenciuri da xarveziania. arc didi moazrovneebis nafiqrals Seesatyviseba da arc ubralo, saR azrs, rom, davuSvaT, ruseTSi arsebobs srulyofili demokratia, an gnebavT – azerbaijanSi. iq ar aris srulfasovani politikuri procesi, Tumca es am qveynebis moqalaqeTa umravlesobas maincdamainc ar awuxebs, radgan ukeTesi momavlisken mimaval gzaze sxva wonadi argumentebi eimedeba, rusebs – atomuri fari da bunebrivi resursebi, azerbaijans – energomatareblebis uzarmazari maragi. axal droSi demokratia gaxda Tavisuflebis da kapitalis meSveobiT keTildReobis Seqmnis gza da amdenad, ufrore dasavluri praqtika Seesatyviseba demokratiis cnebas, vidre azerbaijanuli, rusuli, an gnebavT Turquli, Tumca isic aseve xarveziania, rameTu dauSva ori msoflio omi. Tqven Cemi mosazreba CadeT kiTxvis safuZvelSi, me ganvmarte, Tu ra iyo aseTi daskvnis safuZveli. amitom gamomivida pasuxi vrceli da rom gavyve CvenTan arsebul situacias, unda ganvixilo: erTpartiuli parlamenti; faqtobrivad, imave partiis mier daniSnuli opozicia; Sidapartiuli demokratiis faqtobrivi ugulebelyofa ara marto saxelisuflo, aramed opoziciur partiebSic; depopulaciis saxifaTo procesi; susti ekonomika, ekonomikuri zrdis arsebobis pirobebSic ki; umuSevrobis maRali done; ucxoeTidan gadmoricxvebis imedad myofi socialuri stabiluroba; propagandis instrumentad qceuli Tavisufali media – saxelisufloc da opoziciuric; erTi fulis dominireba politikaSi da ase Semdeg. am yvelafris gaTvaliswinebiT, Cven SeiZleba, ara demokratiad, aramed specifikur, qarTul demokratiad CamovyalibdeT. miT umetes, roca axla dasavleTidan saqarTveloSi demokratiis ukusvlaze saubroben. . . da es imis gaTvaliswinebiT, rom maTi mosawoni wina xelisuflebis demokratia iyo wminda wylis avtoritarizmi da bevri TvalsazrisiT, koSmari.
– am viTarebaSi, rogoria politikuri speqtrisa da sazogadoebis roli?
– politikuri speqtris roli arsebiTia, magram mas aseTi rolis Sesruleba, sadReisod, ar SeuZlia, ramdenadac politikuri partiebi ara sazogadoebis nawilis, aramed, xSirad, TviTaRiarebuli beladebis politikuri da finansuri interesebis gamomxatvelia, sazogadoeba ki CvenTan, faqtobrivad, aranair rols ar asrulebs politikur procesSi, radgan xalxi 90-ianebis dasawyisidan, roca CaiTvala, rom man araswori arCevani gaakeTa, gaZevebulia politikidan da mxolod „ZlierTa ama soflisaTa“ SeTavazebisTvis kveris damkvrelis funqcia aqvs.
– ra unda gakeTdes, ra nabijebi unda gadaidgas, rom evropuli qveynebis demokratiul standartebs mivuaxlovdeT?
– saamisod unda moiZebnos civilizaciis wina frTaze myofi qveynebisa da Cveni erovnuli interesebis Tanxvedris veli. aseTi veli, sadReisod, ar arsebobs. uceb aRmoCnda, rom civilizebuli dasavleTi, keTildReobis da demokratiis mowinave citadeli, saiTkenac Cven miviswrafviT, Rrma krizisSia, CineTma da misma swrafad mzardma ekonomikam lamis SeerTebul Statebs lideroba CamoarTvas. dasavleTi, deindustrializebuli, imigraciisgan gamowveuli seriozuli problemebiT damZimebuli, uimedo CixSia. amis naTeli magaliTia xelisuflebaSi trampis mosvla, rac amerika-evropis dapirispirebis legalizebaa. es ki principuli siaxlea Statebis mier mxardaWerili da meore msoflio omis Semdeg, `marSalis gegmis~ safuZvelze moRonierebuli evropis perspeqtivis TvalsazrisiT. im standartebs rom mivuaxlovdeT, isini kritikulad unda gaviazroT da ukritikod ar miviRoT miuxedavad imisa, rom amisTvis SeiZleba, sayvedurebic miviRoT da davisajoT kidec. aqve davazusteb, rom Cemi es mosazreba ar gulisxmobs im praqtikis da taqtikis ukritikod miRebas, rac sadReisod kobaxiZis mTavrobas gaaCnia. bevr momentTan dakavSirebiT, rogorc analitikoss, kiTxvebi maqvs.
– Tu Cveni qveyana evropul standartebs ver, an ar daakmayofilebs, es ramdenad saziano iqneba Cveni qveynisTvis?
– mTavaria standartebis Sinaarsi. calsaxad evropul standartebs ukve SeerTebuli Statebis axali administraciac ki ar eTanxmeba da Cven ratom unda daveTanxmoT?!. mTavaria, midgomebi iyos gonivruli, politikuri pragmatizmis prizmaSi gardatexili da masze dafuZnebuli. es ukve politikuri klasis funqciaa, romelic CvenTan, samwuxarod, sustia.
– cxadia, gverds ver avuvliT am bolo dros qveyanaSi ganviTarebul movlenebs, am mxriv, ramdenad Tanmimdevruli arian mmarTveli partia da opozicia sxvadasxva sakiTxTan dakavSirebiT?
– Cven irgvliv zustad is movlenebi viTardeba, romelsac vimsaxurebdiT da vimsaxurebT. Tanmimdevruli mmarTveli partiacaa da opoziciac. sxva sakiTxia, es Tanmimdevruloba ramdenad efuZneba saR azrs. me mgonia, rom orive mxare sakuTar naWuWSia Caketili da moqmedebs didi suraTisgan abstrahirebulad. es, ra Tqma unda, saxifaToa qveynisTvis.
– xelisuflebaSi ganxorcielebul sakadro cvlilebebze politikosebi araerTgvarovnad reagireben, Tqven ras ityviT?
– me sakadro cvlilebebze aranairad vreagireb, ra Tqma unda, rogorc erTi moqalaqe da analitikosi, radgan xelisuflebis sakadro politikaze zegavlenis moxdena rTulia, SeiZleba iTqvas, SeuZlebelic ki. saakaSvilis sakadro politika iyo voluntaristuli, Tumca lamazad SefuTuli, magaliTad, sityviT meritokratiis aRiarebiT. dRevandeli sakadro politika biZina ivaniSvilis sakadro politikaa da mis xedvebs efuZneba, romlis safuZvelSic devs bankirobis droindeli praqtika – yvela `liftiorisa~ da dacvis TanamSromlisgan SeiZleba bankiris gakeTeba, Tu mas ganaTlebis oficialuri dokumenti aqvs. konkretuli gadawyvetilebebi zogi misaRebia, zogi – ara, imis Sesabamisad, ama Tu im maRali Tanamdebobis piris saqmianobas vicnob Tu ara. xSirad, CemTvis da, vfiqrob, bevrisTvis, ucnobi adamianebi iniSnebian maRal Tanamdebobebze. raxan Tqven aWaridan brZandebiT, aRvniSnav aWaris mTavrobis meTauris postze bolo gadawyvetilebis Taobaze, rom es warmatebuli da imedismomcemi gadawyvetilebaa. batoni TamazaSvili seriozuli cxovrebiseuli gamocdilebis mqone Cinebuli gvariSvilia da darwmunebuli var, Tavs gaarTmevs am seriozul pozicias. rac Seexeba mTavrobis wina meTaurs, CemTvis misasalmebeli iyo, Tavis droze, misi daniSvna, Tundac imitom, rom is maRalmTiani aWaridan iyo warmomavlobiT. arada, maRalmTiani aWaris warmomadgeneli, Tu ar CavTvliT sabWoTa periodSi aWaris pirvel poziciaze batoni papuniZis daniSvnas, aWaris lideri ar yofila. amdenad, es gadawyvetileba politikuri TvalsazrisiTac iyo sayuradRebo. axlaxan gavrcelebuli informacia imis Taobaze, rom romeliRac restoranSi batoni riJvaZe Tavis Tanamoazreebs Sexvda, konteqstiT, rom es Sexvedra, garkveuli TvalsazrisiT, dapirispirebis maprovocirebeli iyo, ra Tqma unda, miuRebelia. bunebrivia, demokratia aWaraSic gulisxmobs pluralizms da Sexedulebebis Sepirispirebas, magram viTarebis sirTulidan gamomdinare, qveyanasa da saerTaSoriso arenaze aWaris amJamindel da yofil xelisufals da maT mxardamWerebs Soris dapirispireba dauSvebelia da es yvelam kargad unda gaacnobieros.
– parlamentSi Seiqmna yofili xelisuflebis danaSaulis Semswavleli komisia, Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb. . .
– wina xelisuflebis danaSaulebrivi saqmianobis Semswavleli komisiis Seqmna, aSkarad, dagvianebulia, Tumca – gasagebi. ar SeiZleba, strategiuli partnioroba gqondes aSS-sTan da evrokavSirTan da mis favoritebs saqarTveloSi asamarTlebde. raRac aris amaSi ukan midevnebuli lampariviT, magram im gadacdomebze da danaSaulebze msjeloba aucilebelia Cveni sazogadoebis kaTarzisisTvis, rac srulfasovnad jerac ar momxdara.
– mravalTvian saprotesto aqciebs, axlac rom grZeldeba, TiTqos SeveCvieT, muxtic neldeba. . .
– saprotesto aqciebis muxti, ra Tqma unda, Senelebulia, Tumca is, rom saprotesto aqciebi, Tundac am Senelebuli muxtiT, jiutad grZeldeba, gasagebia. me vfiqrob, qveynis perspeqtivas ufro waadgeboda revoluciuri scenariT xelisuflebis Secvlis strategiis marcxis aRiareba, opoziciis parlamentSi Sesvla, iqauri tribunis gamoyeneba momxreTa mobilizebisTvis da meti adekvaturobis Setana saprotesto moZraobaSi. mSvidobians rom uwodeb aqciebs, romelic SigadaSig, aSkarad, ar iyo mSvidobiani, mxardamWerebi ar mogemateba, qarTul xasiaTSi siyalbisadmi mouTmenloba mkafioa. Cven procesis siRrmiseuli aspeqtidan gamovdivarT yovelTvis. evropa da keTildReoba gvinda, magram ara erovnuli interesebis sazianod. aq TiToeuli cneba dazustebas saWiroebs, magram me amovdivar sazogadoebis umravlesobis mier am cnebebis aRqmidan. es, ruso, rusos Zaxili, es, mona, monas skandireba, swored, agdebs, dabla swevs am muxts miuxedavad imisa, rom arsebiTad, protestis monawile axalgazrdebi marTali ganwyobisani arian da sworad miaCniaT, rom saqarTvelo gamoqvabulSi ver dabrundeba da unda iaros win.
– ra stadiaSia amJamad opoziciuri speqtri?
– opoziciuri speqtri seriozul krizisSia. mxardamWerebis raodenoba ar izrdeba, finansuri resursi, faqtobrivad, ar gaaCniaT, popularuli axali liderebi ar hyavT. melia, gvaramia, zurabiSvilis reitingi dabalia. da mTavari – amis gacnobiereba-gaazrebis da Secvlis winapirobebs ver vxedav
– opozicia jerjerobiT Camouyalibebelia oqtombris adgilobriv arCevnebSi monawileoba-armonawileobis sakiTxSi, es risi maniSnebelia?
– opoziciis monawileobas adgilobrivi TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebSi azri ar aqvs. isini mmarTvel partias jerovan konkurencias ver gauweven. maTi regionuli da adgilobrivi organizaciebi sustia, garda ramdenime regionisa (aWara, samegrelo…). maT arc organizaciuli TvalsazrisiT da arc finansurad aqvT saTanado baza. amdenad, maTi obstruqcia erTaderT swor poziciad gamoiyureba, magram asec ar SeiZleba didxans gagrZeldes da politikur procesSi maTi dabruneba aucilebelia, Tu undaT, rom hqondeT politikuri perspeqtiva. kidev ar garkveula, ras upirebs opozicias xelisufleba – gansakuTrebiT `nacionalur moZraobas~ da masTan afilirebul politikur organizaciebs. akrZalavs maT? Tu arada, ra berketebi aqvs opozicias, rom daicvas sakuTari interesebi, garda dasavleli mfarvelebisgan sasanqcio reJimis gamkacrebisa.
– sagareo sakiTxsac SevexoT, ramdenad seriozulia sagareo safrTxeebi da ram SeiZleba gamoiwvios maTi eskalacia?
– safrTxeebi seriozulia. maTi eskalacia damokidebulia msoflioSi ganviTarebul movlenebze. dasavleTTan dRevandeli xelisuflebis kritikulma damokidebulebam da xSirad oponirebis reJimSi yofnam qveyana, faqtobrivad, Zlieri mokavSireebis gareSe datova. Cinuri veqtori swrafad moqmedi da saimedo jerjerobiT ar aris da Znelia, gaxdes aSS-evrokavSirTan strategiuli partniorobis realuri alternativa. ruseTTan urTierTobebisa da partniorobis aRdgena, am etapze, SeuZlebeli Cans da saamisod rom ganawyobs qarTul sazogadoebas, iseTi kompromisi (raRac – yarabaRis istoriis msgavsi), warmoudgenelia. irani veqtori ver gaxdeba xilul momavalSi, xolo TurqeTTan urTierTobebis Semdgom intensifikacias da daaxloebas bevri seriozuli faqtori SeuSlis xels. . . mokled, fxizlad unda viyoT da gamWriaxi politikuri liderebis imedad, romelTa deficitic igrZnoba qveyanaSi.
– ukrainaSi mimdinare procesebis da maTi gadawyvetis fonze postsabWoTa qveynebis momavali rogor gesaxebaT?
– vambobdi da vambob, rom imperiebis nangrevebze warmoSobilma qveynebma, rogorc amas istoria gvaswavlis (makedonelis imperiis dacemis mere warmoSobili qveynebis momavlidan dawyebuli), unda daamtkicon, rom SeuZliaT, imsaxureben da Rirsni arian Tavisuflebis, damoukideblad arsebobis da Rirseuli momavlis. ukrainis magaliTiTac swored Cemi es varaudi mtkicdeba. TviT baltiis qveynebis perspeqtivac ki, miuxedavad natos qolgisa, ar aris calsaxad garantirebuli. dadgeba sxva qveynebis momavlis sakiTxic. Tavi rom davaneboT frivolurad gamijnul ferganis vels da saxelmwifoebs centralur aziaSi, sayuradReboa TavisTavad belarusis perspeqtiva (samokavSireo saxelmwifo ruseTTan erTad, saxezea); azerbaijans da TurqeTs aqvT mWidro urTierToba `erTi eri – ori saxelmwifos~ principis safuZvelze, `didi Turanis~ ideuri safuZvlebis konteqstiT; yarabaRis dakargvis Semdeg, ruseTTan saorWofo urTierTobebis da dasavleTisken momzirali faSinianis mmarTvelobis momavliT gagrZelebuli da 22 % teritoriebdakarguli saqarTvelos xvalindeli dRiT damTavrebuli, jer kidev Cveni okupirebuli teritoriebis mimarT araRiarebis politikis mxardamWeri dasavleTis da saqarTvelos federaciul/konfederaciul mowyobaze meocnebe ruseTis faqtoris gaTvaliswinebiT. ai, ase Znelad saprognozoa postsabWoTa qveynebis momavali. me mainc vfiqrob, rom momavlis imedi unda gvqondes, Tu saTanado gonierebas gamoviCenT.
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