,,სამოქალაქო აქტივისტის და მწერლის ბუნება მიბიძგებს, ვიბრძოლო ბოლო ამოსუნთქვამდე”

მარიამ ხითარიშვილი 27 48 93 –

qveyanaSi ganviTarebuli movlenebi gulgrils aravis tovebs. opoziciis da mmarTveli gundis dapirispireba araerT sakiTxSi vlindeba. erT-erTia evrokavSiris mier SemoTavazebuli 12 punqtis Sesruleba. opozicia ukmayofiloa am mxriv xelisuflebis saqmianobiT, rasac, maTi TqmiT, evroparlamentis SeniSvnebi da rekomendciebi cxadyofs. mmarTveli gundi ar iziarebs opoziciis da, aseve, evrosabWos SeniSvnebs da acxadebs, rom qveyana Tanmimdevrulad viTardeba. garda amisa, mTavar opoziciur Zalas (`nacmoZraobas~) axali lideri hyavs, rac, eqspertTa TqmiT, Sida ganxeTqilebis nimuSia. opozicia quCis aqciebs aorganizebs, am mxriv politikuri aqtorebi aqtiurdebian. maT Soris, aRsaniSnavia samoqalaqo aqtivisti genri doliZe, romelic aqtiur politikaSi brundeba da mniSvnelovan siaxleebs aanonsebs. igi qveyanaSi ganviTarebul movlenebze gvesaubreba.
– batono genri, ambobT, rom aqtiur politikas ubrundebiT, romelime partiaSi apirebT gawevrianebas, Tu TanamoazreebTan erTad axal organizacias SeqmniT?
– `qarTuli ocnebis~ `damsaxurebiT~, saqarTvelo, Tavisi damoukideblobis istoriaSi, yvelaze axlos dgas ruseTTan, qarTveli xalxi ki, yvelaze axlos – garusebis safrTxesTan. yoveldRiurad, perspeqtivis, imedis, lukma-puris, samarTliani garemos saZebnelad, Cvens qveyanas aTasobiT qarTveli tovebs, paralelurad, saqarTveloSi, gaurkveveli miznebiT aTiaTasobiT rusi Semoedineba. erT dResac, movTvale da, 2022 wlidan moyolebuli, aSS-Si Cemi ufro meti megobaria samuSaod wasuli, vidre saqarTveloSi darCa. xalxs aqvs totaluri uimedobis da uperspeqtivobis gancda, ramac, gulwrfelad getyviT, mec amitana. am yvelafris Semxedvares grCeba ori arCevani: an emigrantTa did nakads unda SeuerTde da sazRvargareT gaxizno ojaxi, an daikapiwo xelebi, ipovo Tanamoazreebi da win aRudge rusuli borotebis manqanas. emigraciaSi wasvlis problema namdvilad ar maqvs, xvalve SemiZlia legalurad vicxovro evrokavSirSi, maqvs moqmedi proeqti, xelfasi da ufaso sacxovrebeli umagres saxelmwifoSi, estoneTSi. erTi periodi, SeiZleba iTqvas, `Cemodnebze vijeqi~, magram samoqalaqo aqtivistis da mwerlis buneba mibiZgebs, vibrZolo bolo amosunTqvamde. Cveni problemebis umravlesobis wyaroa ruseTi da rusi oligarqi. ganaTlebas, ekonomikur ganviTarebas, teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgenas, evrointegracias, sityvis da gamoxatvis Tavisuflebas ori kaci uSlis xels, ruseTSi – putini da saqarTveloSi – ivaniSvili. amitom, gadavwyvite, SevuerTde gunds, romelic yvelaze axlos dgas Cems principebTan, RirebulebebTan. . .
– rogoria Tqveni azri dRes qveyanaSi mimdinare procesebze, ra aspeqtebs gamoyofdiT?
– rogorc zemoT visaubre, yvela problema saTaves iRebs ruseTidan. ruseTs ar aZlevs xels erTiani, jansaRi, ganaTlebuli, ganviTarebuli qarTveli eri, amitomac miliardobiT rubli xmardeba sicruis, feik-niusebis, rusuli narativis tiraJirebas. rogorc ki saqarTvelo Caebmeba evropul matarebels, sxva evropuli qveynebis siCqariT daiwyebs svlas ganviTarebisken. rigiTi qarTveli igrZnobs, ras niSnavs Rirseuli yofa, adamianuri jandacvisa da socialuri politika, adekvaturi xelfasi da aRarasodes gaixedavs ruseTisken, rogorc es gaakeTes poloneTma, estoneTma, lietuvam, latviam. . . amitom, ruseTi yvela ZaliT cdilobs gzaze gadagveRobos. gazrdili kriminalic, korufciac, ganukiTxaobac, migraciac – yvelaferi rusuli xelw-eraa.
– mniSvnelovani Temebi CamoTvaleT, razec opozicias da mmarTvel partias gansxvavebuli mosazrebebi aqvT. minda gkiTxoT: moqalaqis, mwerlis gadasaxedidan, ramdenad saxelmwifoebrivad moqmedeben partiebi Tundac qveynisTvis mniSvnelovan sakiTxebTan dakavSirebiT?
– Cveni qveynis erT-erTi mTavari problema gaxlavT is, rom zviad gamsaxurdias xelisuflebis damxobis Semdeg, erTi da igive saxeebi qmnian politikur dRis wesrigs. es exeba opoziciasac da xelisuflebasac. partiebis dasaxeleba icvleba, magram `asarCevTa gadanacvlebiT~ jami, anu – `isTebliSmenti~ ara. igi savsea Zveli `kagebes~ da dRevandeli `efesbes~ agentebiT, amitom, xSirad, politikosebi pirad an ucxo qveynis interesebs saxelmwifoebrivze ufro win ayeneben. Cemi azriT, sabWoTa skolis liderebi, rogorc `politikuri klasi~ – lustraciis kanoniT unda Cairecxos da qveynis marTvis sadaveebTan unda movidnen sufTa saxeebi. qveyanas axali sisxli sWirdeba.
– opoziciis da mmarTveli partiis dapirispireba, ZiriTadad, evrokavSiris mier SemoTavazebuli 12 punqtis Sesrulebas ukavSirdeba, am mimarTebiT ra mocemuloba gvaqvs?
– `qarTuli ocneba~ aris rusuli proeqti, prorusebis ki ara, pirdapir, rusebis partia, romelic dainteresebulia, saqarTvelo ar moswydes rusul orbitas da ar gadaerTos evropul talRaze. . . amis naTeli dasturia Riad antievropuli `partia~ – `xalxis Zala~, romelic `qarTuli ocnebis~ wiaRSi daibada da miuxedavad imisa, TiTqos datova mmarTveli partia, ar tovebs umravlesobas, simbiozSia ivaniSvili-kobaxiZe-RaribaSvilis gundTan. patara bavSvic ki xvdeba, rom `qarTuli ocneba~ ruseTis gulSematkivaria da ruseTis gulSematkivari yvela Rones ixmars, rom evrokavSiris wevri ar gaxdes Cveni qveyana.
– mmarTveli gundis wevrebi acxadeben, rom qveyana viTardeba da opoziciis braldebebi usafuZvloa. . .
– Tqven minda gkiTxoT, Jurnalists da moqalaqes, aseve, am gazeTis mkiTxvels vekiTxebi, Tu qveyana viTardeba, maSin eSelonebiT ratom garbis xalxi emigraciaSi? daiTvaleT, ramdeni Tqveni megobari, mezobeli da axlobelia SromiTi migranti TurqeTSi, an evrokavSirSi? ramdeni wavida meqsikis `jojoxeTuri~ sazRvris gavliT aralegalad amerikaSi? ramdens aqvs `mwvane baraTis~ aplikacia Sevsebuli? ramdeni `zis Cemodnebze~? Tu yvelaferi kargadaa da ekonomika TuxTuxebs, maSin es xalxi sakuTari Tavis mteria, Tav-qud moglejili rom garbis qveynidan?
– am bolo dros xSirad gaismis kritikuli Sefasebebi zogierTi evroparlamentaris mxridan (qveynis demokratiis TvalsazrisiT). es risi maniSnebelia?
– mmarTvelobis pirvel periodSi `qarTuli ocneba~ kargad axerxebda Tavisi rusuli saqmeebis SefuTvas proevropuli niRbiT, Sesabamisad, dasavleTs sjeroda, rom saqarTvelos xelisufleba iziarebda qveynis gacxadebul prodasavlur kurss. Tumca ukrainis omma da ruseTis forsmaJorulma mdgomareobam cxadhyo, rom saqarTvelos xelisufleba (da ara xalxi!), ara Tu ar exmareba Tavis strategiul partniors da istoriul megobar ukrainas, aramed okupanti ruseTis mxares aris da mas sanqciebis gverdis avlaSi uwyobs xels. ivaniSvilic mixvda, rom aRar gamosdioda evropelobanas TamaSi da Riad gauxsna politikur-ideologiuri cecxli dasavleTs. Tqven ambobT, `zogierTi evroparlamentari~, sinamdvileSi – `aRmosavleT gafarToebaze~ momuSave yvela evroparlamentari aRSfoTebuli da imedgacruebulia Cveni xelisuflebis Riad rusuli politikiT. vilniusSi vizitis dros vesaubre ramdenime evroparlamentars, vinc wlebis ganmavlobaSi iyo Cveni qveynis evrointegraciisa da natoSi gawevrianebis xmalamoRebuli qomagi, isini Seuracxyofilebi arian Cveni xelisuflebis saqcieliTa da `qarTuli ocnebis~ spikerebis binZuri mesijboqsiT maT mimarT. im yvelafris fonze, rom evropam kandidatis statusi ar mogvca, aqeT – ruseTi frenebis aRdgenas gvpirdeba… vaxtang Rlontis fraza maxsendeba: `ZmebTan Zmobaze uari vTqviT, mtrebTan sufraze wavuTveriT, TviTon vlanZReT da vapartaxeT, rac mtrebs gadarCaT waurTmevi~, mokled ukuRma viTardeba Cveni qveyana.
– eqspertebi samwuxaro tendenciaze amaxvileben yuradRebas: `xalxis Zalis~ wevrebi acxadeben, rom dasavleTs saqarTvelos omSi CarTva surs. msgavsi antidasavluri narativis gaJRereba ramdenad saxifaToa saqarTvelos evropuli integraciis TvalsazrisiT?
– yvela ganaTlebulma adamianma icis, rom evropas CvenTvis omi arasodes moutania. ai, ruseTma, bolo ocdaaT weliwadSi, oTxi omi `gvisaxsovra~: samaCablos, afxazeTis, Tbilisis samoqalaqo da agvistos omi. evropa da evrokavSiri zustad imitom gvinda, rom omi ar moxdes. bolo-bolo, gerbze gviweria: `Zala erTobaSia~, mterTan erTobaSi ki ara, mtris winaaRmdeg erTobaSi! Cven gagvimarTla, rom mTeli civilizebuli samyaro dRes ruseTis winaaRmdeg aris, anu Cvens mxaresaa, `xalxis Zala~ ki mtris mxares aris da mTeli civilizebuli samyaros winaaRmdeg.
– cxadia, gverds ver avuvliT im movlenebs, rac `nacmoZraobaSi~ moxda. amboben, rom realurad xabeiSvili nominaluri lideria, mis ukan ki merabiSvili da kezeraSvili dganan. Tqveni azri amis Sesaxeb. . .
– sxva partiis Sida sakiTxebis ganxilva arakoreqtuli iqneba Cemi mxridan, erTs ki gulwrfelad vityvi: personalurad giorgi kirTaZes vgulSematkivrob, rogorc axleburi xedvis, axali suliskveTebis, axali stilis politikoss, vugulSematkivreb yvelgan da yovelTvis. man SeZlo aqamde SeuZlebeli, aWaraSi did erTobas Cauyara safuZveli da daamtkica, rom Cveni gansxvavebebis miuxedavad, qveynis samsaxurSi gaerTianeba erTaderTia, rac am Waobidan amogviyvans, dagvamarcxebinebs stagnacias da rusul Zalas. SegaxsenebT, rom am erTobis ideam arCevnebSi daamarcxa sakrebulos `qarTuli ocnebis~ gundi da arCil Ciqovani. aqve aRvniSnav: enm-Si erTmaneTTan Sepaeqrebul orive mxares arian pirovnebebi, romlebsac pativs vcem personalurad, maTi damsaxurebisa da adamianobis gamo. rac Seexeba, dganan Tu ara axali Tavmjdomaris ukan kezeraSvili da merabiSvili, amaze unda ifiqros enm-is amomrCevelma, me maqvs Cemi gza, sxva veqtori da dRis wesrigi.
– `nacmoZraobaSi~ warmoqmnili problemebi, rogorc eqspertebi acxadeben, xelisuflebis wisqvilze asxams wyals. aqedan gamomdinare, dRes ra stadiaSia opozicia da, am mxriv, realurad ratom ar iqmneba mZlavri mesame Zala?
– opoziciis daqsaqsuloba, araTanmimdevruloba, urTierTdapirispireba aris mizezi imisa, rom Cven, jerjerobiT, ver SevZeliT damangreveli angariSiT gagvenadgurebina `qarTuli ocneba~, oTx da xuT procents ki administraciuli resursis, susis da partiuli ceskos xarjze, nebismier arCevnebSi warmatebiT gvparavs mmarTveli partia. minda vTqva, rom sameulis gaerTianeba (`droa~ – `girCi~ – `strategia aRmaSenebeli~), erT-erTi mniSvnelovani nabijia axali simZimis centris Seqmnisken. mniSvnelovania, rom es ar aris, naucbaTevad, winasaarCevnod Seqmnili moCvenebiTi gaerTianeba, mas didi dro aqvs Tavisi Zalebis demonstrirebisa da soliduri raodenobis amomrCevlis mozidvisTvis.
– 15 Tebervals evroparlamentma miiRo rezolucia, sadac aRniSnulia, rom xelisuflebam saakaSvili samkurnalod ucxoeTSi unda gauSvas. . . mmarTveli gundis azriT, saakaSvili Tavisi mdgomareobiT spekulirebs. .
– ar aqvs mniSvneloba, mixeil saakaSvilis mmarTvelobas dadebiTad vafasebT, Tu uaryofiTad, qveynis reformatorad migvaCnia, Tu sistemuri danaSaulis mfarvelad. faqtia, rom dapatimrebis dRidan mas ar uqmnian elementarul, adamianur pirobebs. SeuiaraRebeli TvaliTac Cans, rom misi fizikuri mdgomareoba savalaloa. is argumenti rom `miSa damnaSavea da ekuTvnis~, civilizebul, samarTlebriv saxelmwifos ar Seefereba. me vaprotestebdi patimrebis wamebas miSas dros da zustad vicodi, rom araadamianurad visac eqceodnen, yvela udanaSaulo da wmindani ar iyo. patimrisTvis arsebobs samarTliani sasjeli da ara wameba, damcireba da Rirsebis Selaxva. miT umetes, roca piradad vladimer putini aris dainteresebuli misi sulieri ganadgurebiT. Tu miSa imitom daiWire, rom murusiZe-CinCalaZis sasamarTlo ar mogwonda mis dros, magram masac igive sistemiT asamarTleb, maSin unda miujde gverdiT. samwuxarod, Cvenma xelisuflebam winamorbedisgan mxolod mankierebebi gadmoiRo. ra Tqma unda, mivesalmebi evroparlamentis rezolucias da mimaCnia, rom saakaSvilis sasjelis gadavadebiT da evropaSi samkurnalod gagzavniT qveyana daisvenebs im toqsikuri garemosgan, raSic gviwevs cxovreba.
– urTierTbraldebebi qarTul politikaSi axali ar aris, magaliTad, `leiboristuli partiis~ lideri Salva naTelaSvili saparlamento opozicias xelisuflebasTan aliansSi adanaSaulebs, mizezad maTi mxridan parlamentis ardatoveba daasaxela. . .
– Cemi azriT, opoziciis adgili parlamentSi da sakrebuloSia. TviTizolaciaSi Tavis moqceva koziris da berketis dakargvaa. xelisuflebas unda ebrZolo yvela platformidan. sxva saqmea, arCevnebis Semdeg Sedegebis araRiareba da gayalbebis gamo arSesvla, magram Tu erTxel Sedixar, gamosvla-Sesvla, anu – gvirilaze mkiTxaoba – `Sevdivar,~ `ar Sevdivar,~ `Sevdivar~, `ar Sevdivar~ cota araseriozulia da abnevs amomrCevels.
– amas winaT ND-m gamoaqveyna gamokiTxva sxvadasxva Temaze. umuSevroba aRniSnuli kvlevis mixedviTac pirvel adgilzea problemuri sakiTxebis nusxaSi. ra aris amis mizezi?
– mizezi bevria, kriminali, aramdgradi ekonomika, korufcia, arastabiluri sainvesticio garemo. rusul samyaroSi dasavlur msxvil kompaniebs investireba ar surT, rusuli fuli, am etapze, mTlianad oms xmardeba.
– drodadro prezidenti mmarTvel partias akritikebs sxvadasxva sakiTxTan dakavSirebiT. eqspertTa nawili ambobs, rom salome zurabiSvili etapobrivad cdilobs, mmarTvel partias gaemijnos. . .
– Cemi azriT, prezidents mmarTveli partia kompromatebiT amuxruWebs. igi realurad verasodes aRudgeba win im Zalas, romelmac moiyvana da dasva am postze. misi protesti butaforiulia. is gamocdili diplomatia da cdilobs, Tavisi momavali gadairCinos putinis ruseTis CaZirvis Semdeg, rac, Cemi azriT, ar gamouva.
– ruseT-ukrainis omi mTeli msoflios Tavsatexia. am mxriv, ramdenad mniSvnelovania TbilisSi 24 Tebervals daanonsebuli ukrainis mxardamWeri aqcia?
– 24 Tebervlis aqcia aCvenebs sad dgas qarTveli xalxi, putini-ivaniSvilis mxares, Tu evropuli Rirebulebebisa da Cveni qveynis stabiluri ganviTarebis.
– dabolos, udavoa, rom ruseT-ukrainis omis bedi mravali qveynis momavals gadawyvets. movlenebis ra ganviTarebas elodebiT da saqarTvelos momavali rogor gesaxebaT?
– Tu gvinda, am omSi ruseTis damarcxeba Cveni gamarjvebac iyos, rac SeiZleba male unda moviciloT prorusi xelisufleba da rogorc saxalxo, ise saxelmwifoebriv doneze mkafiod davikavoT swori pozicia.