რამაზ საყვარელიძე: ჩინეთის აჩრდილი მოადგა კავკასიას. . .

irma cecxlaZe –

trampi rogorc biznesmeni, ise udgeba msoflio politikas. . . ruseTi da aSS gaRizianebuli arian gajiutebuli `qarTuli ocnebiT~. . . zelenski cdilobs, ar dados zavi ruseTTan. . . aseT daskvnebs akeTebs politologi ramaz sayvareliZe `aWarasTan~ eqskluziur interviuSi.

– rogor SeafasebdiT trampis gaprezindetebis Semdeg aSS-sa da msoflioSi Seqmnil viTarebas? man saocari siswrafiT daiwyo im problemebis mogvareba, romlebic jer kidev qveynis saTaveSi mosvlamde daaanonsa.

– misi moqmedebebis Sefaseba mxolod motivaciiTaa SesaZlebeli da es motivic gacxadda. kerZod, rogorc aSS-is, ise msoflios masStabiT, liberalebi flobdnen Zalauflebas, rasac globalizacia ewoda. rogorc iciT, liberalizms uprispirdeba konservatizmi da Cven Tvalwin gadaiSala politikuri brZolis naTeli suraTi. Tu erTi Zala zedmetad gaZlierdeba, mas upirispirdeba meore Zala, raTa pirvelis gavlena Seasustos. rogorc ukve aRvniSneT, globalizacia moedo msoflios, ramac adrec gamoiwvia mosaxleobis protesti, rasac trampis pirveli gaprezidenteba mohyva. marTalia, trampma ver gaarTva Tavi zedized gaprezidentebas, Tumca aman kidev ufro meti momxre SesZina, romlebic aSkarad ewinaaRmdegebodnen baidenis liberalur gadawyvetilebebs, miT umetes, rom es ukanaskneli, marTlac veRar xvdeboda, sad imyofeboda da ras ambobda, araTu Sesabamisad emarTa zesaxelmwifo.
cxadia, inauguraciis Semdeg, trampma elvis siswrafiT daiwyo sakuTari gadawyvetilebebis ganxorcieleba. mas ukve momzadebuli hqonda kanonproeqtebi da dabloka is xazebi, romelic aZlierebda liberalebs.
– liberalebi isev ibrZvian, SeZlebisdagvarad, Tavadac blokaven trampis kanonproeqtebs da ar aZleven ganxorcielebis saSualebas.
– aramxolod sakanonmdeblo organoebSi, isini garedanac cdiloben, xeli SeuSalon axal prezidents Canafiqris ganxorcielebaSi. axlaxan mouwodes mosaxleobas, quCaSi gamosuliyvnen da gaeprotestebinaT trampis qmedebebi. anu grZeldeba es brZola da bunebrivia, liberalebi Tu agrZeleben, arc trampi darCeba valSi. kerZod, `enjeoebisTvis~ saxsrebis Caketvac am brZolis erT-erTi xazi iyo. marTalia, gadamowmebisTvis Caiketa, raTa gairkves, ramdeni da raSi ixarjeba, magram principSi, rogorc Cans, aRkveTavs ama Tu im fondis politikur xarjebs. rac Seexeba jandacvas da qvelmoqmedebas, aq blokebi ukve moixsna.
– es brZola sadamde gagrZeldeba?
– albaT, jer amerikas mixedavs, rom Sida safrTxeebi gaaneitralos (aq mxolod trampi ar moqmedebs, politikosebis mTeli jgufia, romelic mas mxars umagrebs). rodesac saSinao saqmeebs moagvarebs, Semdeg mixedavs evropas da, saerTod, msoflios.
– ramdenad ewinaaRmdegeba demokratiul principebs trampis qmedebebi aralegali migrantebis winaaRmdeg?
– Tuki adamiani Sesulia qveyanaSi aralegaluri gziT, es ukve iTvleba kanondarRvevad da TavisTavad, mis winaaRmdeg zomebis miReba prezidentis da samarTaldamcvelebis pirdapiri movaleobaa. me aq verafers vxedav uaryofiTs. trampi iqceva ise, rogorc unda moqceuliyvnen misi winamorbedebic.
– rac Seexeba mis pretenziebs kanadis, grenlandiis da panamis arxTan dakavSirebiT?
– trampma ganacxada pretenziebi. davuSvaT, rom mas marTla unda am sami teritoriis mierTeba. ufro ukeTes Sedegs ar miiRebda, rom daewyo Tavisi survilis Sesruleba faruli meqanizmebiT? jer daezvera situacia, Semdeg SeTavazebebi daewyo, sxvadasxva SeRavaTi ganexorcielebina da a.S. trampi didad gulubryvilo ar Cans da aseTi Ria gancxadebebi tovebs STabeWdilebas, rom masSi devs garkveuli politikuri motivi, Tundac vaWrobisTvis, zewolisTvis, raRacaSi gacvlisTvis da a.S. yoveli SemTxvevisTvis, ara im Sedegis misaRebad, rac gacxadebulia.
– Tu SeiZleba, daakonkretoT?
– kargi, davuSvaT Seiyvana kanada sakuTar iurisdiqciaSi. kanada lamis amerikisodenaa. ekonomikurad es procesi xom wamgebiani iqneba StatebisTvis?
– kanada sakmaod Ronieri qveyanaa. . .
– ki, geTanxmebiT, magram mainc bevr rameze pasuxismgebloba aSS-ma unda aiRos. aSkarad etyoba tramps yvela nabijSi, rom masSi biznesmeni fiqrobs, biznesmeni moqmedebs da iRebs biznesmeniseul konkretul gadawyvetilebebs. rogor fiqrobT, biznesmeni miiRebda kanadis mierTebis gadawyvetilebas? ara! . . igi gadawyvetda kanadasTan urTierTobebis dalagebas, Secvlas da savaWro xelSekrulebebis axal etapze ayvanas. . . magram is, rom amxela `maxina~ Seni sapatrono gaxado, amas romeli WkuaTmyofeli izams?. . . es yvelaferi gaTvlilia erTaderTi mizniT, am mkveTri gancxadebebis Semdeg rom Seva dialogSi, cxadia, ufro darbildebian es mxareebi.
– ukraina-ruseTis Tema iTxovs konkretul daboloebas. trampis gancxadebiT, is apirebs omis Sewyvetas. . .
– esec biznesis Temaa. rogorc ukve aRvniSne, aqac masSi biznesmeni laparakobs. principSi, baidenic bizness akeTebda ukrainis xarjze, rogorc irkveva, masac hqonda sargebeli am omidan, anu gasuli xarjebidan didi ukugeba hqonda amerikis demokratiul frTas – liberalebs. es ukve dalagebuli sistema iyo: ukrainis omis xarjze liberalizmis moRoniereba. TavisTavad, omis gagrZeleba kidev ufro moamZlavrebda liberalebs. omi xom momgebiania, Tu viRacebi gadawyveten misgan ixeiron?! amitom trampi acxadebs omis Sewyvetis aucileblobas, riTac politikur metoqeebs uketavs finansur-ekonomikur Jangbads. aseve, Cans, rom omebi marTlac ar uyvars tramps, rac dadasturebulia misi wina prezidentobis periodiTac. esec bizsnesmenisTvis damaxasiaTebeli Tvisebaa, radgan wminda wylis biznesmens urCevnia mogebis miReba mSvidobiani molaparakebebis gziT da ara brZolebiT (aq ar vgulisxmob im kategorias, mxolod omebis meSveobiT rom mdidrdebian).
– putini ramdenad wava daTmobebze da miujdeba molaparakebebis magidas?
– aramxolod putins, arc zelenskis awyobs omis dasruleba. rogorc ki zelenski oms daasrulebs, TavisTavad unda Caataros arCevnebi, romelic SeCerebulia saomari moqmedebebis gamo. misi bedi amomrCevelma unda gadawyvitos, romlis umetesi nawili an amowyda an qveynis gareT gavida omis gamo.
rac Seexeba putins, ukve inerciiT midis ukrainis teritoriaze. ver aCerebs rusis jaris winsvlas ukrainuli armia, romelSic kidev, calke problemebia. mogexsenebaT, Tuki molaparakebebis magida aucilebelia zavis dasadebad, yvela mxare cdilobs, im magidamde mivides rac SeiZleba meti mogebiT, raTa Semdeg daTmoba moxdes im zRvramde, rac maT awyobT. putins, cxadia, awyobs, ukrainis kidev ufro meti teritoria daipyros, radgan, kompromisze wasvlis aucileblobis SemTxvevaSi, xelze darCes meti.
– saqarTveloSi aqciebia. amerikel kongresmeni, helsinkis komisiis Tavmjdomare jo uilsoni iTxovs mTavrobis mimarT sanqciebis dawesebas. . .
– TvalSisacemia is faqti, rom uilsoni, romelic yvelaze xmamaRla yviris sanqciebis dawesebaze, fuls iRebs yvela gancxadebis gakeTebaSi. amas winaT ki 11 weli miusajes im adamians, romelic demokratias gvsayvedurobda, igive amerikidan. raRac saeWvod Cndeba Tanxebi maTTan, vinc CvenSi nakls eZebs, vin aZlevs am xalxs fuls, vin uxdis?

SemogTavazebT mimdinare movlenebis ganmartebas Cemeuli versiiT. yvela xedavs, rom CineTis aCrdili moadga kavkasias. amerikisgan farulad, axlandelma xelisuflebam yvelaferi gaakeTa CineTTan dasaaxloeblad. arada, trampis wina prezidentobis periodSi mkacrad gagvafrTxiles, rogorc aSS-is konkurenti, CineTi aq ar SemouSvaTo.
– e.i. aSS gvebrZvis. . . evropacaa. . . kidev vin?
– ara, piriqiT, mTeli saqoneli CineTs evropaSi Caaqvs. CineTi miuRebelia ruseTisTvis, radgan naxevari cimbiri aRebuli aqvs, yovelgvari SeiaraRebuli konfliqtis gareSe moaxdina am mxaris okupacia. CineTi rom Semova samxreT kavkasiaSi, ruseTs ar eqneba SiSi, rom igive faruli migraciiT gadava CrdiloeT kavkasiaSi da mis okupirebasac moaxdens? imasac davakvirdeT, rogor iqceva ruseTi CineTis mimarT, am ukanasknelma naxevari cimbiri waiRo da xmas ar iRebs. gamodis, rom CineTi imdenad Zlieria, ruseTi ver upirispirdeba, gasusulia da lamis `Cesti~ auRos. . .
– batono ramaz, iqneb avxsnaT, ruseTis SiSi ram gamoiwvia. xmas ar iRebs CineTTan da eCxubeba aSS-sac da evropasac. . .
– vfiqrob, aq ufro Rrma fesvebia. ruseTis is fena, romelic omSi Cahyva putins, Sinaganad antievropuladaa ganwyobili. es dayofa jer kidev petres droindelia. maSinac bevri wavida evropasTan kontaqtebis winaaRmdegi. iqidan modis es ori xazi. evropis mimarT agresia wamovida evropis mier ruseTis e.w. garyvnis gamo da a.S. . . amitom putins ar uWirs amerika-evropis winaaRmdeg xalxis amxedreba. Tanac emateba, rom ukrainas swored dasavleTi exmareba. e.i. isini arian mtrebi. . . am dros, putini ar ambobs, CineTia mterio, radgan SeiZleba mosaxleoba ar ahyves, vinaidan am xalxis mesamedi swored azielia. aqedan gamomdinare, putini ver aRdgeba didi aziis – CineTis winaaRmdeg, Tumca arc misi CrdiloeT kavkasiaSi SemoSveba surs, radgan icis, rom cimbiris Tema ganmeordeba da iqidan veRar gandevnis.
– gamodis, Cveni mokavSire CineTia?
– ki, amitom xdeba yvela es ubedureba Cvens Tavs. aqve isic unda gavixsenoT, rom ivaniSvilma gakvriT axsena saqarTvelos teritoriuli mTlianobis aRdgena, Tumca detalebSi ar Sevida. Tuki CineTi Semovida samxreT kavkasiaSi tvirTis gasatareblad, TavisTavad, daayenebs sakiTxs ruseTis winaSe, rom ukonfliqto gaxdes es gza. . . xvdebiT, saiTken mivdivarT? . .
– mTavaria, es gza saqarTvelos fizikuri gadarCenisTvis saxifaTo ar gaxdes da amerikam da ruseTma erTad ar dagvartyas. . .
– ara, ar dagartyamen, radgan ukve girtyamen. . . xom xedavT, amerikelebi rogor gebrZvian. . . ruseTic gebrZvis, magram xmamaRla verafers ambobs, radgan CineTs erideba. orive zesaxelmwifom icis, rom Tu es `gajiutebuli ocneba~ darCeba saqarTvelos xelisuflebaSi, iuridiul-legaluri gzebiT verafers mouxerxeben da ver SeaCereben CineTs. aqedan gamomdinare, aSS-ic da ruseTic cdilobs aq gadatrialebis mowyobas. isev `nacionalebs~ daayeneben qveynis saTaveSi. SeiZleba, miSa ar gaaprezidenton, magram misi mimdevaric bevria da maT dResac aqvT kavSiri ruseTTan. mokled rom vTqvaT, qveyana, dResdReobiT, Zalian rTul, cicabo gzebs gadis da yvela mxriv unda SevuwyoT xeli, rom sabolood miviRoT mdidari, gaerTianebuli da amayi saqarTvelo.